When the Lorenverse and the OTU meet

[Nathan Brazil]

Just an idea.

Hey, robject, what if in that scenario it is Virus itself that discovers TL 27 Reality Manipulation and out of a sense of responsibility Manipulates the OTU to be like Lorenverse?

or to paraphrase my favorite line EVER from the Simpsons:
Homer: "To alcohol! The cause of and solution to all of life's problems!"
Me: "To Virus! The cause of and solution to all of Traveller's timelines!"

 

[whulorigan]

Just an idea.

Hey, robject, what if in that scenario it is Virus itself that discovers TL 27 Reality Manipulation and out of a sense of responsibility Manipulates the OTU to be like Lorenverse?

or to paraphrase my favorite line EVER from the Simpsons:
Homer: "To alcohol! The cause of and solution to all of life's problems!"
Me: "To Virus! The cause of and solution to all of Traveller's timelines!"

That has sort of an Asimovian Foundation-Series flavor - the "Robots" are secretly/invisibly in the background steering the Human Race in a direction that is best for its own good . . .

 

[savage]

Nathan Brazil,
Cool. Now, we need the end in mind. If the intention is to have a new Imperium covering 18 sectors+ then I'd say Loren is on the right track; but didn't take it far enough. Asimov wanted a new galactic empire through the Foundation. The result of Lorenverse should have been an incredibly impressed Aslan hierarchy. A road to expanding the 3I. That is what i'd do, but I have a TNE(T20) campaign.

So, that being said Virus is incredibly flawed and should remain that way. 1248 took it down the super-sophont path to try and destroy it? (go figure). In fact, as a flawed creation it makes a "Great" plot device NPC or even player character.
My problem with it is Stephon would have destroyed it (in an act of mercy). So, TNE and Lorenverse never completely converge because of how 1248 was written. There are other options;

1.One could say the Aware slowly breaks down until they are very rare. Their complex rewiring causing early demise after a century. That is handwium to reconverge the Imperium. Make them Oracles of a future culture.
2.Or that After Lucan-virus dies the Aware opens it's borders and changes direction completely becoming a pacifist state, in Core sector. Perhaps, Lucan was the driving force of the killer strains focused on Dulinor. Some Virus may go rogue becoming pirate lords of the future.


So, in the Lorenverse, instead of the 3I Stephon, soon founds the 4I with the inclusion of several Aslan Archdukes because the Aslan are aware an assassination plot has been foiled. I can think of dozens of plot devices surround it. Or take it one further yet, the Hivers see the risk to the Imperium and submit for membership in an effort to manipulate stability. I like that one. Probably need to write it up. "Your next assignment? Your unit has been assigned with a squadron of Tigress to the new Hiver Depot. You'll indoctrinate the Ithkur Legion into the Marines. Good luck!"

The only way to fix Rebellion-TNE is to remove 1248 or redo it. Even going far into the future does not mean recovery from the damage.

 

[savage]

Not wanting to be a "stick in the mud", I reviewed the TNS documents, edited the map and put together a pdf proposed 4th Imperium. One of thousands of ways to grow. I stored it with an entry in the File Library/Campaigns.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=525459#post525459

:coffeegulp:

 

[robject]

Very nicely done, Savage. I agree that handwaves are in order regardless of the route taken by any referee -- or publisher.

1250 - The Aware

The first, as you have noted, is to deal with the Aware in the OTU: it has to change or go away. By the Time of Convergence, it must be different than what it was in TNE. Typically this means Reduction, implying a Showdown in the OTU and some time afterwards for Cleanup, but it depends on one's goals.

Using the K'kree to "clean up the Omnivores' mess" of the Aware is inspired.

The Aware, as such, does not exist in the LTU. If the Aware is smashed by the K'kree, then we have replaced one situation with a perhaps more workable one. How K'kree's newly conquered territory goes back to human hands is another matter entirely.

1200 Onwards - The Empress Wave

The second is in dealing with the Empress Wave in both timelines, which is likely to be disruptive rather than constructive, but THAT also depends on one's goals.

The LTU will be affected by the Wave, but the manner need not be similar to that of the OTU!


1250 Onwards (OTU and LTU) - Post-Third-Imperial Space

The third is in dealing with the former Domains in the OTU. How these are used depends on one's goals.

This is post-LTU, in that history has not been written for this part of the LTU. Therefore, the LTU has room to change, as well. Presumably, its circumstances and the OTU's circumstances could each move towards a gravitational center.

1250 Onwards (OTU and LTU) - Post-Charted Space

The fourth is in dealing with what's left of the other empires. Again, this is purely dependent upon one's goals. Similarly, the LTU and OTU both are open books, and may migrate towards a common gravitational center.

In other words, if there's a central setting goal, then both timelines could slowly be drawn to it as their published timelines are exhausted.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

savage, skimmed thru. On its own, overall, I like the your further history and its "goal". The Aslan joining as a "cultural region", very cool. The Hiver's not so much.

Not liking the implementation though, not sure if it is relative lack of detail or the short time it takes.

I don't feel enough "umph" story-wise with regards to the Aslan desiring to joining the Imperium. Bring that story-up a little better and cool beans.

On the nature of "non-barbarian" Aslan subservient to the Emperor of the "Fourth Imperium", how much freedom to maintain their culture distinctly do they have? I look to the Solomani Confederation in comparison and how they reacted to their "cultural ideas" (the whole species supremacy thing and loss of power at Capital) causing them to join and split. Not important that the Solomani split. It is the Imperial reaction that matters. Once the Tlakhu decide to join, they will honor their agreement.
For example, and a silly one but one to provoke thought. What is to stop a rigidly honorable (ie. no Tolerance skill) Aslan ko from some traditional clan from getting/not getting into a duel via misunderstanding on Capital? Or if so what happens?

On the Hivers, more tweaking or handwavium necessary. In OTU, the Hivers as a whole left the RC/Freedom League in 1242. They left in part because they were done with uplift of Old Expanses as far as they were concerned, in part because the new Freedom League kicked them out. They have basically left and said "Good luck, you're on your own. And don't forget who brought you back from darkness if we come asking for help. Bye now." Not seeing storywise why the Hivers would ever want to be subservient/ruled by the Fourth Imperium in Lorenverse or in OTU.

 

[savage]

Thank you and good points Nathan and robject.
Nathan,
Convergence is the key. For it to occur the LTU must become 4I. That requires growth because rejection of TNE path. In TNE it's clear there will never be a 3I again.

For the Aslan, it's opportunity for growth. Building a story from TNS articles requires some imagination, since not everything is spelled out. That being said there are comments about the difficulty of Aslan clans crossing their own space for new lands. Clearly some will reject this direction while others will see the strength and honor of Stephon. As for Aslans, on Capital, that was already happening. I did mention Regional laws being important to the various cultures. I believe 4I in LTU requires greater acceptance of racial differences than in 3I. The Aslan want real estate more than war.

RC/FL is a bit of a mess isn't it? They also reject the Imperial Regency. I think the final war with the Aware and aggression on the part of K'Kree would motivate them to be a bit more tolerant. No reason FL does not go through another leadership change. I mentioned, Hiver's region would require some autonomy under 3I, as well. I intentionally included 2 maps for a reason. Some may prefer to stop the growth with the Aslan. The Hiver race would have the opportunity to protect themselves from future K'Kree aggression while manipulating on a much larger arena. Having the Aslan join really makes the Imperium a not only for Humaniti club. In LTU, 4I must be multicultural on a major race scale.

I did this because i wanted to continue the discussion of 4I. It has helped me evaluate and improve MTU. But let's face it any merger point has a lot of hand waves.

 

[robject]

By the way, I've decided that "converge" could be the wrong term for what I am thinking of.

These days, "meet" might be a better term. Just because two timelines meet at a certain point doesn't mean they merge.

 

[savage]

By the way, I've decided that "converge" could be the wrong term for what I am thinking of.

These days, "meet" might be a better term. Just because two timelines meet at a certain point doesn't mean they merge.

Perhaps. This could go a lot further. We pointed out a time of meeting does.
I see convergence as something that grows together. The 4th Imperium is that point, but replication of the royal families and stabalization in TNE take a bit of time.

Time is a tricky thing to play with.

 

[robject]

When I mentioned it again to Don, he re-emphasized that he preferred a completely different timeline for the LTU, all the way out to an alternate 1900 and onwards. A meeting point would give easy options to both timelines.

I don't know if it matters. The main point of the LTU is a continuation of the Classic feel without the twin abominations coming out of MT and TNE.

 

[robject]

A Death Blow To Virus

Virus doesn't exist in the LTU. I suggest that the Far Far Future for the OTU is better off without Virus, as well.

Therefore, I would effectively do away with Virus in the OTU before the Point of Meeting. At the POM, Virus is not even a memory.

That doesn't mean there can't be machine intelligence. Just that it isn't Virus. The Empress Wave may or may not be destructive, but I propose that one thing it could do, is neuter or wipe out Virus, and change the way the OTU looks at artificial intelligence.

Meanwhile, the LTU just goes along its course. Somewhere around TL16 is when true machine awareness shows up anyhow. In a way, the OTU has to backtrack and then catch up with the LTU regarding AI.

 

[robject]

Original Post updated with my current thoughts.

 

[savage]

When I mentioned it again to Don, he re-emphasized that he preferred a completely different timeline for the LTU, all the way out to an alternate 1900 and onwards. A meeting point would give easy options to both timelines.

I don't know if it matters. The main point of the LTU is a continuation of the Classic feel without the twin abominations coming out of MT and TNE.

The 1248 abominations?

A few things i will point out. I believe i covered the bases. It is not a meeting/convergence without Virus in TNE. All of TNE would need a rewrite and that defeats the purpose instead of just 1248 or nothing.;

• I showed the earliest point they could meet 1300. From that point, choosing other actions or activities determines a later date.
• I like the idea of Virus. An AI life being introduced into 4I. I pointed out a much later date when LTU research produced a synthetic version at the Core Research Base. In theory, testing would have been properly completed. Stephen would have crushed any prior unstable research as any emperor should.
• In a scenario, where the K'Kree client states calm the 2000 Worlds, Virus never completely absorbs into 2000 worlds. Or the K'Kree kill their own abomination. The combined fleets destroyed Viral Lucan.

After 1300 (or whatever) the ref can say, "all these bad things happened" or "disaster was avoided by certain events. Remember that initial relationships take a long time to work out. The USA was born in the 1700s, but the most recent state added in 1948. What starts in 1300 may take time to calm down.

Another thing i like is the vast open oceans of "known space". In TNE governments expand and someone has to figure out what is in the new borders. In LTU, merging interstellar empires leave room for great exploration and yet fall under the umbrella of 4I." To a certain degree they are similar. The maturing of worlds in TNE to OTU levels might take a couple additional centuries. That defines a different between early 4I and the golden age of 4I.

 

[robject]

The 1248 abominations?

I do lump 1248 in with TNE, but the abomination of TNE is Virus.

• I like the idea of Virus. An AI life being introduced into 4I. I pointed out a much later date when LTU research produced a synthetic version at the Core Research Base. In theory, testing would have been properly completed. Stephen would have crushed any prior unstable research as any emperor should.

I suppose I would not call that Virus: I'd just call it technology. I feel the need to define "Virus" in terms of TNE's weaponized Lukan Cymbeline chips and their direct descendants, the "Vampire" fleets.

Cymbeline "living tech" is not Virus.
TL16 self-aware/AI computers, positronic brains, and so on, are not Virus.
The Kinunir, like Hal 9000, was not infected with Virus.

 

[inexorabletash]

Silly thought: what if the Empress Wave is particularly deadly to Virus, even in Jumpspace?

 

[savage]

I do lump 1248 in with TNE, but the abomination of TNE is Virus.

I suppose I would not call that Virus: I'd just call it technology. I feel the need to define "Virus" in terms of TNE's weaponized Lukan Cymbeline chips and their direct descendants, the "Vampire" fleets.

Cymbeline "living tech" is not Virus.
TL16 self-aware/AI computers, positronic brains, and so on, are not Virus.
The Kinunir, like Hal 9000, was not infected with Virus.

I understand your definition. I equated Virus to all unnatural things coming from Cymberline. In OTU, Core Research into Cyberline is clearly taking place. The problem is that weaponized Cymberline chips are always an OTU potential. What should have happened in TNE 1248 was
1. extermination of the Cymbeline race, or
2. viral protection at a high level based on research. Electronics could not be re-written. (TL16 perhaps introducing an all TL change).
3. In my Convergence view, I introduced an AI developed based solidly on Cymbeline research.

The problem in re-development has been that the majority of all of the alternatives have been created by people that don't like Virus in OTU. Yet, this has a solid fanbase and is part of OTU.

Virus doesn't exist in the LTU. I suggest that the Far Far Future for the OTU is better off without Virus, as well
Meanwhile, the LTU just goes along its course. Somewhere around TL16 is when true machine awareness shows up anyhow. In a way, the OTU has to backtrack and then catch up with the LTU regarding AI.

No reason to do this. It's a ref's choice and ease to write it out of a campaign, but the OTU is as it is. Far Far Future or otherwise. LTU needs to accept TNE technology to have any "meet" point in the Future of the Imperium. Otherwise, it's an extension of LTU only.
The AI, I suggested is based on research. Weaponizing the Cymbeline race is a very expensive "Lucanism". However, the potential is obvious and would result in safeguards.
That is not to suggest an AI development could not take place without Cymbeline research, but that a work around can occur where both live together.