Why allow Criticism of MGT?

[aramis]

This is as generic as generic gets, really. From Star Wars to Dune via Foundation and the rest.

It's very thin evidence for 'hoodwinking', if that's not too strong a term for what's being asserted.

Not when it's combined with the two week trade cycle for merchants, the 1 week no-matter-the-distance jump drive, the sandcaster weapon (pretty much unique to Traveller), the four military arms: Army-Navy-Marine-Scout services, the scout service also being the postal service, the reward Nobility, the subsector and sector mapping system built around the 8 wide by 10 tall subsector...

Note that the other competing games in the same genre, (Star Frontiers, Space Opera and Spacemaster,) have separate postal systems from scouting service. (SF doesn't even have the scouts as a service... and postal is not even mentioned!)

 

[far-trader]

This is as generic as generic gets, really.

No, not really. Something like...

"Traveller is a science-fiction role-playing game set in the distant future, when humanity has made the leap to the stars and interstellar travel is as common as international travel is today..."

Is generic. The paragraph goes on at length, and there's a second paragraph. All without mention of a setting (any setting in fact) implied unlike "mighty Imperium" etc which the above intro is full of.

And as for being led down the garden path, I'm feeling it, have been for a bit. Originally the statement from Marc and Mongoose was that Mongoose Traveller was going to be the Basic edition to complement and be compatible with Marc's Advanced edition (T5). And as I recall it there was much rejoicing, and only a little lamenting. Somewhere that changed. I wasn't the least bit surprised as I had serious doubts such a feat would even have been possible. Now I wonder though if that was ever the deal. Certainly from my reading the current revelation is not what Mongoose has been saying, not publically at least, as regards the direction they were taking Traveller in.

 

[Supplement Four]

Seriously, if someone pulled this sort of crap in real life, the cops would be there to take them away and and before the person knew it they'd be up for a psychiatric assessment. So why it's acceptable here is completely beyond me.

I've got one word fer ya: Succotash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk-BR-EBMU4 @ the 2:04 mark.

 

[Allensh]

No, not really. Something like...

"Traveller is a science-fiction role-playing game set in the distant future, when humanity has made the leap to the stars and interstellar travel is as common as international travel is today..."

Is generic. The paragraph goes on at length, and there's a second paragraph. All without mention of a setting (any setting in fact) implied unlike "mighty Imperium" etc which the above intro is full of.

And as for being led down the garden path, I'm feeling it, have been for a bit. Originally the statement from Marc and Mongoose was that Mongoose Traveller was going to be the Basic edition to complement and be compatible with Marc's Advanced edition (T5). And as I recall it there was much rejoicing, and only a little lamenting. Somewhere that changed. I wasn't the least bit surprised as I had serious doubts such a feat would even have been possible. Now I wonder though if that was ever the deal. Certainly from my reading the current revelation is not what Mongoose has been saying, not publically at least, as regards the direction they were taking Traveller in.

You are right...the core book is not "generic" in the fullest sense of that term. It does include some alternate tech and such, and really doesn't have much of the setting in it other than the stuff at the beginning and the holdover assumptions elsewhere. Maybe they did that for a sense of familiarity, or maybe it was required by the license. Matt would know, I don't.

In any event, because the core book isn't "generic" doesn't mean that Mongoose is wrong for trying through the use of the supplements and such to expand the horizons of the game to introduce new technologies or other ideas into the game and broaden the range of science fiction settings it can easily accomodate. Perhaps the compatibility issue with T5 arose because it took so long for even what there is of T5 to become available. Personally, I am much happier with something that is closer to CT than I am with what I have seen of T5 anyway. Plans can change, especially if certain other pieces of those plans don't fall into place the way they should.

Allen

 

[mbrinkhues]

What part of making the allusion that the negative thread born of a positive thread and dwarfing it did you miss?

If the shoes hurt last year, they won't fit better this year.

Sorry, we walked away from Mega, um around '86 I think, maybe '85. Why in Guh's name should I go back? It was abandoned out of disgust, not likely to be different now. We left it for Gurps and Palladium, and a few other systems too.

Strange, I didn't walk away from MT in 85. Maybe because my time maschine was on repair. Maybe because I like it. As obviously did others since it sold quite a few supplements.

 

[RandyT0001]

4:24 to 4:55

 

[CosmicGamer]

"Why pay more for less" was NEVER a SUPPORTIVE thread. It started from the question "Why should I buy Mgt when I already have MT/can get MT for less money" that was actually aimed at a specific poster in that thread, not "the public" and addressed him by "nick"

The more is MegaTraveller that is a more complete rules set (Base + most of HighGuard + Vehicle construction) and currently sells in a bundle with some MegaTraveller background stuff for less than an Mgt rules book alone.

I do believe it is supportive. Supportive of MegaTraveller. There is nothing wrong with that, other than maybe the appropriateness within the original thread.

 

[aramis]

What part of making the allusion that the negative thread born of a positive thread and dwarfing it did you miss?

If the shoes hurt last year, they won't fit better this year.

Sorry, we walked away from Mega, um around '86 I think, maybe '85. Why in Guh's name should I go back? It was abandoned out of disgust, not likely to be different now. We left it for Gurps and Palladium, and a few other systems too.

Strange, I didn't walk away from MT in 85. Maybe because my time maschine was on repair. Maybe because I like it. As obviously did others since it sold quite a few supplements.

Neither of you could have walked away from MT in 1985... it wasn't released until 1987.

Traveller 2300 was announced in about '85, released in early '87. MT was a fall release. Summer of '87, I was trying to run the OTU using T2300... then I went to basic.

No edition is perfect. Understanding the flaws of the various games is valuable. Frankensteining them together works best when you understand those various strengths and flaws.

 

[CosmicGamer]

There isn't, if that's the case. I'm all for constructive criticism. The problem is that there is a lot of unconstructive criticism going on here.

One complication is that many posts have both constructive and nonconstructive portions.

 

[Icosahedron]

To reply to the thread title, I think criticism should always be allowed - the alternative is gagging.
However, I think everyone involved needs to count to 100 before posting.

I think the difficulty is that there are several different topics mixed together on the same forum, frequently in the same post, and it's difficult to separate them out:

1) Playing the game of MGT (which is equivalent to what happens on other parts of CotI). Unfortunately, this doesn't attract much attention from either 'party'. If it could be separated out, this is where MGT players should be able to discuss their version freely without interference. It has no bearing on how anyone else plays their version.

2) Errata, typos, and 'bad' calls in the published MGT material, supposedly bringing the game of Traveller into disrepute (doesn't vitriol do the same?) I believe the errata and typos have been addressed as far as practicable short of new editions, and 'bad calls' are necessarily subjective (some more so than others). Mongoose is even taking steps to address some of these with the aid of the critics who raised them. These are all good signs for the future of Traveller and the ability of the community to work together to improve the game we love.

3) The definition of 'Traveller'. This is the hottest issue and the least likely to be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. This is where MGT differs from every previous incarnation of Traveller. Some versions have taken huge liberties with the OTU history, but the basic assumptions of the game have never before been altered. This is the main reason why supporters of other versions come to this forum with concerns; because MGT isn't just a new version, Mongoose is affecting the very meaning of the term 'Traveller', and that affects everyone, not just MGT players. MGT players cannot expect that other Traveller players should not voice their opinions on this, but it would be good if this worthy discussion could be separated from discussion of MGT as a game (1 above). Attempts to do so by individual posters have failed so far.

Obviously Marc and Matt have discussed a future for Traveller, and it may not be to everyone's liking. It is unlikely that this community will radically alter those decisions, particularly not with outright opposition and hostility, so to that extent criticising their decisions is pointless. However, business plans are always evolving, and it may be possible to influence the decisions Marc and Matt make in the future by pointing out certain issues and making rational arguments (as Hans has done in supporting OTU canon) so equally it's not logical to argue for acceptance of 'the inevitable' on all counts.

As I see it, dealing with the OTU and 'Traveller as we have known it' is simply step one in Marc and Matt's vision (I could be wrong) and gradually it will receive less interference/support as Mongoose concentrates more and more on alternative settings such as Trek, Dredd and B5.

'Traveller' is expanding. Gradually, over time, the concepts of the OTU, current ATUs and 'Traveller as we have known it' will merge into one - the OTS (Original Traveller Setting) to coin a term - and this will be just one setting (albeit a favoured one) under the umbrella of 'Traveller - Science Fiction role-playing in the far future'.

At that point, some will get their wish (albeit not in the form they wanted) and everything they've called 'Traveller' for the past 30 years, all the Jump Drives, STL communications, etc, really will be rules and setting combined - only it will be a subset called the OTS, the Third Imperium or something else, and the name Traveller will belong to the wider ruleset umbrella encompassing B5 et al.

Like it or not, I think this much probably is inevitable and no amount of complaining will alter it*, but we can perhaps ensure that what Mongoose does with our own Pocket Universe of 'Traveller as we have known it' involves minimal disruption and clear signposting.

The way to do that is with continual but sensible petitioning at reasonable intervals - not a shut up about it forever, but not a daily kick in the shins either.

*It's about cash, and if Marc Miller chooses to alter some aspects of his imaginary game in order to improve his real life, I can't blame him. Wouldn't you do the same?

 

[tbeard1999]

So get the hell out of here and go to McDonalds instead. Or do you spend all your time picketing the burger places you don't like? Or perhaps you instead stay at the counter at Burger King and argue with the staff there and wave their burgers at them saying "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG! YOU SHOULD HAVE MAYO HERE, NOT ONION! LIKE AT MCDONALDS!"? until they call the police, instead of just going to McDonalds and actually enjoying something you like.

You've obviously lost situational awareness here. Last I checked, this forum is not owned by Mongoose (Burger King in your dubious hypothetical).

Seriously, if someone pulled this sort of crap in real life, the cops would be there to take them away and and before the person knew it they'd be up for a psychiatric assessment. So why it's acceptable here is completely beyond me.

Uh, I'm not inclined to take psychological advice from folks who blow gaskets over criticisms of *games* they like.

 

[tbeard1999]

This is as generic as generic gets, really. From Star Wars to Dune via Foundation and the rest.

To use a Texas legal term of art, that's bullsh*t, Klaus.

The quoted phrases are just the beginning of a game that is *filled* with Traveller tropes. Not to mention the rather obvious fact that the game is called "Traveller".

And not "Traveller-like" tropes, but Traveller tropes. Things like 1 week jumps of 1-6 parsecs, the Imperial Scout service, PGMP (even identical acronyms), etc.

It is utterly disengenuous to insinuate that these things are generic.

It's very thin evidence for 'hoodwinking', if that's not too strong a term for what's being asserted.

Perhaps you should read what is actually being said. As the person who posted the quotes, I clearly stated that the intent could (and I believe was) to make Traveller generic. But this was not clearly communicated in the Core Rulebook and you know it.

MGT does not communicate to the reader that it is a generic set of rules in the way that GURPS or Basic Roleplaying does. FWIW, I suspect that the next printing will be more explicit on this point.

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, perhaps what MgT (and CT for that matter) could do with is a guide to how to change stuff to cope with other settings.

I used CT back in the day to run a version of Star Wars, Star Trek, Dune and Blake's 7. I had to change stuff and make stuff up but the core rules - character generation, combat etc. required very little modification.

Perhaps a FF&S lite for MgT?

 

[Allensh]

Hmm, perhaps what MgT (and CT for that matter) could do with is a guide to how to change stuff to cope with other settings.

I used CT back in the day to run a version of Star Wars, Star Trek, Dune and Blake's 7. I had to change stuff and make stuff up but the core rules - character generation, combat etc. required very little modification.

Perhaps a FF&S lite for MgT?

As a playtester on both versions of FF&S..please no oh, you said "lite"..whew!

A tech book consolidating things like the starship design rules, giving vehicle design rules, perhaps weapon design and all that, might be a cool idea. As long as it doesn't require more than your average calculator to use, I'd buy that.

Allen

 

[Supplement Four]

4:24 to 4:55

Makes one hell of a fondue!




God that guy cracks me up. Or, he used to, before he got political. His old stuff is hilarious. Bill Cosby, too.

My new favorite is Ron White.

 

[atpollard]

The operative word is 'clear'. As in 'can clearly only be interpreted one way' rather than 'is ambiguous at best'.

Although, as I haven't read everything Mongoose has written, I may just have missed it. I'm quite ready to be corrected, provided someone will actually present me with proof rather than unsupported allegations.

If you want recent proof it is Mongooses current intention that all of the boolks labeled Traveller are intended as a generic sci-fi rules system, I can point out a recent post by Matt for you.

If you are looking for proof that Mongoose made this crystal clear from day 1, I can't provide that.

FOR ME PERSONALLY, it was always clear that Mongoose intended to use the 'Traveller rules' for other settings (like Babylon 5) as well as the OTU (now identified in the titles of MgT books as 'The Third Imperium'). It was not at all clear to me (from the start) that "Mercenary", "High Guard, "Scouts" (and whatever follows bearing the Traveller Logo) are NOT directly intended for "The Third Imperium" (OTU) and are intended as a GURPS like set of generic rules for all Mongoose Sci-fi 'Universes' (B5, Hammers Slammers and The Third Imperuim to list a few).

 

[tbeard1999]

If you want recent proof it is Mongooses current intention that all of the boolks labeled Traveller are intended as a generic sci-fi rules system, I can point out a recent post by Matt for you.

If you are looking for proof that Mongoose made this crystal clear from day 1, I can't provide that.

I think that it was always clear that Mongoose intended to use the MGT system for other games. However, it was not at all clear that the MGT Core rulebook was a generic rules set designed for use "as is" with any setting. It seems indisputable to me that the Core rulebook is firmly set in the OTU -- uses of numerous Traveller tropes confirm this.

Mongoose may (and I think does) have different intentions. But it was perfectly reasonable for someone to buy the Mongoose Traveller rulebook, see all the OTU tropes and conclude that MGT was set in the OTU.

 

[drh]

Maybe you could provide a few quotes from Mongoose that made their intentions clear from day one?

This post on Planet Mongoose from almost a year ago, for a start:

http://blog.mongoosepublishing.co.u...le=travelling_the_cosmos&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

In which Mongoose discuss how they'll be using Traveller as the rules for Hammers Slammers, Babylon 5, Judge Dredd, and Strontium Dog.

And they've often said on various forums that the black supplement books are designed with a range of possible SF in mind, not just the OTU. It's why people complain that things that are for the OTU aren't clearly marked as such.

It's been really obvious for a long time that "Traveller" is no longer a setting, and that it's now the core ruleset.

 

[drh]

Who are you to tell anyone what they can post as long as they don't break the rules? You have the right to refute his points. You have the right not to read any of his posts. But you've absolutely no right to tell anyone to stop posting whatever they want to. If you think he's breaking the rules you can report him or you can bitch and moan about it, but in the second case you no better than any other bitcher and moaner.

Look around. Do you see their sort of divisive crap being allowed anywhere else?

Do people regularly and frequently turn up on the Steve Jackson Games forums and moan about how SJG doesn't understand GURPS and that GURPS 4e was wrong?

Do they turn up all the time on the White Wolf forums and declare that the new World of Darkness is a travesty and that the authors are destroying their "Olde Game"?

No. You know why? Because elsewhere, the vast majority of people are mature enough to get over it. They understand that the game has changed and that the new version is not for them, and they either stop playing completely or carry on playing and enjoying their old editions. Because that is what mature adults do.

I've done it several times myself. If a new edition comes out for a game and I I don't like it, I just shrug and carry on playing the old one. It's really simple and it doesn't annoy people. Ranting and raving about it on forums isn't going to bring the old edition back, it's just going to make people who are trying to enjoy the new edition angry and cause unnecessary division. That much is very apparent on this board.

Where do you think this sort of behavior is going to end? Are we going to have to forever put up with endless whining from the same five or six people here who are never going to be satisfied with what Mongoose does because "they don't break the rules"? I think they very much ARE breaking the rules - they're breaking rule #6, the relevant part of which states:

6) Do not undertake any action to the detriment of the community (this is vague to there can be no loopholes). The list of forbidden actions includes, but is not limited to:

* Trashing other forums, games, companies, or their products.

They are blatantly trashing Mongoose by telling them they don't know what they're doing and don't understand the game, accusing them of plagiarism, and very much trashing some of their products too. I don't even know why there's any doubt about that.

 

[aramis]

I've seen no accusations of plagiarism save from one poster.

I've seen lots of comments accusing Mongoose of having picked the wrong man for the job on Merc... here and on the Mongoose board. Difference here is we don't delete the thread when it gets heated.

The line between "trashing" and pointing out flaws is pretty fine in general, but not everyone puts it at the same threshold.

I've pulled two off-topic discussions from the "Who Plays MGT and Loves It" recently. (Last 7 days.) I've warned 3 people about hostile tone where it didn't belong. Someone else got an infraction from another mod over inappropriate tone.

I believe that Mongoose Matt knows how to use the report post button, as do the other mongoose staffers; most of you do, too, and it's simple. If they feel a post has gone too far, they are encouraged to report it. But stifling all negative discussion of the major line isn't going to help the numbers here any more than unfettered mongoose bashing.