I don't understand the analogy. A train is a moving vehicle, and a crew can see and react to hazards - track obstructions, track damage, warning signs, etc. An XBoat can only make a jump. Once the jump is done, it can't maneuver to avoid hazards. I suppose a crew could watch out for potential collisions and call out to warn other ships of the dangers.
Why aren't XBoats automated?
- Thread starter CTWarlord
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
and yet was able to jump at least once with no crew
Vampire fleets are composed of Imperial vessels taken over by Virus.
The x boat can be unmanned
Krikkitone
SOC-12
in MT true AI was tl 16, self aware was tl 17 and self aware ships(self awareness stable enough for ship computers) was tl 18. (of course if the ship is self aware, it isn’t really automated). I’d probably say TL 16 for fully automated jumps.
Because of the preference to have sapient biologicals as backup, as main crew, regulation because of that one time at [REDACTED] which led to the IN manuals being amended?
Out-of-universe, it's because the OTU is a setting for a role-playing game and therefore needs to have its spaceships flown by characters (player or non-player, but characters all the same).
Yeah, you could automate them, but then they become pretty much permanently non-interactive wallpaper for the setting.
Never saying it to be unable, just not thought for it (as the thread title says), nor acting under Imperial laws (and I guess one of the reasons Imperial laws don't like full automatization)
Sure, but not Imperial anymore...
Imperial ship means under Imperial command, not built by the Imperium. An Imperium build ship under Solomani command is no logner Imperial ship, and so no longer under Imperial law, just to give you another example.
Probably (though I have read no reference to it), but not designed for it...
I never said it's not possible, and I believe other political entities probably do (as specified in my exsplanation of the Zhodani Drone Courrier, probably the Zhodani, and the K'kree, for different reasons, and while not said there, the Hivers are also good candidates), but the 3I seems to have some advrsion (or fear) for too automatized ships, and be it by law, by custom or by the liability risk the Shudusham Concords impose, just don't use them.
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Not if you read the timeline...
"AD2129 Terran Navy uses artificially intelligent robots" - MT IE
or the LBB:8 Robots book
"The reliability of primitive (non-creative) artificial intelligence often follows
at tech 11, making the way for widespread introduction of primitive artificially intelligent
robots at tech 12."
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Another Dilbert posted the screengrab of the proof.
Here it is again
Thanks, to both.
But again, the fact it can do it does not mean it's designed to, and even less it's legal or usual...
Subway trains do not need a conductor, though they are there for purposes of someone has to liable if something goes wrong. It is as when it goes to court and they ask if someone could have done something is they were there. It is a parallel discussion about autonomous machines, culpability.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
For it to operate "automatically without any crew" has to be a design decision when the class is constructed. That it is standard is irrefutable since it is part of the stat box.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
You're quibbling over the allegiance or loyalty of the vampire fleet ships ... not their construction or shipyard of origin.
An Imperium BUILT ship doesn't stop being an imperial build if the crew mutinies and turns pirate (or in this context, succumbs to Virus).
Just because the FLAG changes, doesn't mean that the construction of the ship or the point of origin for the shipyard that launched the ship changes with the flag.
A British sailing ship constructed in Bristol captured by American sailors and now flying an American flag was not retroactively first constructed in Boston instead.
Yes, I'm talking about the allegiance, because I'm saying that it's not capability, but laws or custom (and mistrust to full automatization in 3I) what prevents the full automatization of the X-boat system
Sure, but will no longedr be under British laws, but under US ones.
Likewise, an Imperial ship taken over by Virus will no longer be under Imperial law, but under Virus whim.
In this case, this aside, its AI capabilities will be greatly changed over what it had under the Imperial flag
Seeing how people seem to understand what I say I guess I’m poorly explaining myself…
Let’s try with current RL (Solomani, TL7-8) examples (to my limited knowledge):
- Some trains go fully automatized, and are designed to do so and expected to work without sophont (human) crew.
- Many (or at least some) aircrafts and ships are capable to travel without a sophont crew, but not expected to. So they are designed to do it, but its own design assumes they won’t
- Some cars are capable to be automatically driven, and expected to do so, but under US laws they are not allowed to, and a sophont driver must be present, even id doing nothing more than supervision (but liable in case of accident).
IMHO, 3I mistrusts full automatization, and so most ships would fill under the aircraft/ship or automatic car categories (or at some point in between). The X-boat would probably be under the auto car one.
I hope this clarifies my vision of the situation...
And, of course, YMMV...
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I agree with you.
My posts have been trying to dispel the idea that a sophont has to be onboard to allow jump travel within the OTU.
It is yet another example of Mongoose Traveller authors whether by intent or accident sneaking in more setting inappropriate fanon/factoid.
My posts have been trying to dispel the idea that a sophont has to be onboard to allow jump travel within the OTU.
It is yet another example of Mongoose Traveller authors whether by intent or accident sneaking in more setting inappropriate fanon/factoid.
...if only this were true for cars without computers as well...
The question then arises that if an X-Boat can be automated, why wouldn't the default model be designed to be automated, seeing as how you could replace all of the life support equipment and crew space with extra communication and data storage mission-module equipment (and avoid unnecessarily pressurizing the interior with an oxygen environment). A manned-variant could still be built for sensitive transmissions (to defend the vessel from boarders) and/or for transport of small high-value and/or sensitive express parcels (or passengers) along with the normal data-dump. But then maybe that is the only side of X-Boat Communications that we are seeing.
Military Navy courriers could fill this niche, I guess, leaving civilian rouitine communications to automated systems...
But, as I have already said, it seems 3I mistrusts too much automatization (yet, ships are quite automatized, as their small crews show), and require some human crew, even if only to hold liability if anything goes wrong.
Nonetheless, I like those bias in Traveller's (or other games') cultures as, IMHO, they give a sense of realism (or at least credibility) to them, as most cultures IRW have them too...
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
That brings up a point of Cart vs Horse ... ROUND 1 ... FIGHT!
Designing an XBoat for automation isn't the issue (because it already is, by default).
You want to have quarters for up to 2 people on board so that the XBoat service can be used as an emergency transport system for highly sensitive cargoes and personnel (an example of vaccines is given in S7). By having habitable space aboard, the IISS can even use XBoats to move personnel around when issuing post reassignments and/or when mustering out of the service at the end of a career. Granted, an XBoat is no passenger liner, but it ought to be capable of carrying "precious" people and "precious" cargo (in limited quantities!) when needed ... in addition to the baseline capability of carrying communications between star systems.
Designing the system such that only "specialized" XBoats have the capacity to carry crew/passengers/cargo would be self defeating, since by their very rarity those "extra" transport services will always wind up being in short supply exactly when you need them (go away, Mr. Murphy!). The logistics of needing to manage two types of XBoats just isn't worth the expense of NOT having the capability to transport crew/passengers/cargo when you REALLY need to in a crisis situation. Better to just streamline everything on a standardized design that has the pressurized life support capacity built into it every single time so it's there whenever you might need it.
Because that's the thing about emergencies.
They rarely give you enough advance notice to get all your logistics "just so" and perfect in time to meet the needs of the emergency. Best to have the capacity built in from the start.
One of those "you always fight with the forces you have" kinds of deals, rather than wish casting for the forces you WISH you had to meet the moment.
I can easily imagine that there have been plenty of times (i.e. more than can be conveniently counted) in the history of the IISS between IY 800-1100 when the fact that the standard XBoat design is one that can carry a Middle Passenger plus 1 ton of Cargo has proved critically pivotal to the outcome of all kinds of time sensitive crises on plenty of worlds inside the Third Imperium. Even if it's a case of "1 world per year" out of the 11,000+ worlds within Imperial borders, that's still amounts to some 300 worlds that would have had a different outcome if the passenger+cargo option was not available in a time critical way during a world crisis.
Sure, it might cost a little extra relative to a purely automated drone service with no life support on board ... but when you measure that slight surcharge in XBoat fleet construction, operations and maintenance costs against the value of WORLDS SAVED by having that otherwise superfluous capacity built into every XBoat, you're suddenly talking about shaving pennies at the expense of financial stability for entire banking systems.
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