Women gamers

[Shadowdancer]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
"Therefore, I think it boils down to rules, Traveller until late has not favoured the narrative or freeflowing format when you look at the published works. Fantasy, however, can just go on for hours without roll a single die."

With respect, rubish. This has *nothing* to do with the rules or genre, and everything to do with the GM and players.

I have to agree with Andrew. In my experience, Traveller has been the game system which required the fewest die rolls and most role-playing. There have been times when I would just make up reasons for the players to make some rolls on the spot, just so they wouldn't have gotten out their dice that session for no reason.

All of the fantasy games I've played have involved more die-rolling and use of game mechanics than they have role-playing. But again, much of that has been because of the people involved, and not because of the game system.

 

[kafka47]

If we are talking about CT, I would have to agree with you gentlemen but as Traveller morphed its different forms it seemed to acquire more dice. Granted there were ways around it as I have suggested on this board. But, I would want to see a Traveller product that focus more on background and story this way truly establish the "structure of feeling" that good Science Fiction can inspire.

 

[parmasson]

I have to say I also like being able to fit the entire CT character on a 3x5 index card if I need to. My players don't like messing with all the stats their d20 D&D character sheets have. To accommodate their playing styles I have Travellerized their D&D universe with old CT house rules to get the job done with as few rolls as possible. But every person and group is different.

I am a wannabe gearhead and am interested in the mechanics of how stuff works. I could tell them that the moon of planet X is made of blue goo and as long as something interesting was going on I don't think it would matter. They play for story not tech. and that is cool because we all have a good time. I had a point about women gamers but I lost it . . . sorry.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Originally posted by kafka47:
If we are talking about CT, I would have to agree with you gentlemen but as Traveller morphed its different forms it seemed to acquire more dice.

I've had the same experience with both CT and T20.

 

[mike wightman]

Well T4 definitely required more dice

My wife, and the rest of my regular gaming group prefer to use the full range of polyhedral dice.

I found that by changing Traveller20 to 2d10 I could get them to play it more willingly, especially using the T20 damage dice for weapons. Everyone was happy.

 

[Eak]

I just finished an e-mail conversation with a friend of mine from the CoTI boards telling him about one of my experiences at Origins this year and he suggested I consider posting the story here since we do happen to have a thread about Women Gamers :-D

It's actually a good idea and I'm surprised I didn't think of it myself so if nobody minds I think I'll post it here for the perusal of all. As for my friend, it's not my place to out him as the one responsible for this post though he's more than welcome to reply with his own thoughts about it later on ;-D

<Rant>
Sunday morning I decided to sit in on a three hour Twilight 2000 game and was totally surprised at how it went. I was one of only two women at the table, the other woman was the wife of another player. There was no 'Role Playing' to this particular game at all. It was entirely dicing and combat from the word 'GO'. The guys did very little other than talk about Guns and how the rules should be interpreted concerning Barett 'Light 50' range increments and the double hull construction of Soviet Typhoon Class Missile Subs. I was mostly bored silly and sat quietly to myself most of the game. When I did try to contribute to the discussion they seemed surprised that I had any idea what an AR-15 was or even anything at all about 'Willy Pete'. Personally I love TH3 and have my own copy of FM 23-30 (among others). At the end they voted me best player and gave me an event winner badge. I didn't do anything while I was there except for a little dice rolling during combat which was almost the entire three hours. It was my least favourite game of the weekend. They made me feel like they were making an exception for allowing me to be there and gave me the ribbon at the end of it all. I can only assume because I was the only mildly good looking single woman in the room.

In the GM's defence though he did only have three hours to run a game... which, depending on the GM, is only a so-so kind of excuse. Previously in the weekend I had attended multiple other three hour games which had plenty of character interaction as well as combat which I greatly enjoyed. D&D, Star Wars, and Call of Cthulhu...

What about the other woman? She sat quietly smiling at her husband's side and said maybe three words while he argued LMG (.60 Cal) placement and fields of fire. *sigh*

I have nothing against guns... even fired a few myself though I don't own any. I plan too someday when I can afford it. Knives are more my speed, they're quiet, more concealable, and never need reloading. I enjoy in game combat when it's called for, I can be just as bloodthirsty as any guy and the rush of a job well done where nobody died is thrilling. Unfortunately I detest Miniature war gaming, and this particular game was more a miniature war game with green and tan army men than any Role Playing Game I've ever been in. When you boil it down to nothing more than an exercise in strategy and tactics, with little or no personal interaction... that's where you loose me. Especially when you throw in a group of men who discount your input as practically irrelevant and give you an award for doing nothing.
</Rant>

<Disclaimer>
Yes I know I shouldn't have made that particular assumption and you might think it a bit of hubris for me to state that I'm even mildly good looking however that's only how it 'felt' at the time and how a person feels tends to carry significant weight in my mind... fancy that ;-D
</Disclaimer>

 

[Whipsnade]

E.A.,

Sadly, your female friend seems to have wandered into a group of minis players masquerading as RPGers at that convention. It looks as if the GM hosted a game he knew would be mostly filled by people he knew and thus tailored the game for their taste. That's always a bad thing at a convention as you never know who'll come looking for your table.

There's nothing wrong with being a minis player, I'm one and play minis more than RPGs these days, but they should have been more forthcoming with the session's description.

As for women players, they've been few and far between in my games. Not because of any bias (or so I'd like to think) but because of when/where the games were held. A lot of my RPG sessions occurred in the military. While it may be somewhat co-ed now, it wasn't in the 80s so my players were male. Later, my RPG sessions were part of a wargaming club. IMHO, that is the rub. You'll find women RPGers but women wargamers are few and far between.

I've had (short term) girlfriends who express dismay over my 'creepy' hobby and have female family members who still mention it in terms usually reserved for excessive drinking or ⌧ography. Wargaming just is something women fail to 'grok', I guess for cultural reasons more than anything else. I've seen women wargamers at conventions but they were always wives or girlfriends of male wargamers. I've never met one who was a wargamer before meeting her husband/boyfriend, although they must exist.

My last minis group used to meet on Saturdays at a FLGS that hosted the usual CCG tournies for the braindead at the same time. We'd occasionally coax an early CCG tourney loser into taking over a DBM command or SGII squad as a way to pass some time before his mommy came to get him. You should have seen the look on those soccer moms' faces when they collected Junior from our minis tables!

Apparently it was alright for Junior to play Magic against a group of pimply, unwashed, soon to obese or already obese, girlfriend-less, smelly, teens and twenty something, social lepers. However, god forbid he be caught playing a historically based wargame with a group married, employed(1), normal adult males.

Slapping down a set of cards with some B.S. fantasy figures on it was somehow preferable to moving around one of Alexander's phalanxs or Nelson's SOLs and actually learning something about history.

Go figure.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - How does a vet, dentist, nuc engineer, two systems analysts, an IT consultant, and a building contractor grab you? Better than a herd of burger flippers or unemployed parents' basement squatters, no?

 

[parmasson]

By Bill Cameron

I've had (short term) girlfriends who express dismay over my 'creepy' hobby and have female family members who still mention it in terms usually reserved for excessive drinking or ⌧ography.

It is though of as "creepy" because RPGs lack the legitimizing force of television. Any activity that does not involve TV in some way is thought of as deviant by our society. Most of the activities that are considered normal for males in are found on the old box. Poker, football, baseball, hockey, bowling and even snooker make regular appearances. When was the last time you saw RPGs played on ESPN or advertised on NBC? Since our activity is not legitimate enough for TV (even ⌧ has its place)it must be deviant.

Don't get me wrong, I like a good sit round the ole tube as much as the next guy but it seems to be a prime legitimatizing force in our society.

 

[Scarecrow]

In Britain, replace TV with Alcohol.

Crow

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Parmasson:
It is though of as "creepy" because RPGs lack the legitimizing force of television.

Parmasson,

Oops! Blame it on poor post construction on my part!

The hobby I was referring to is wargaming. Various girlfriends and female family members have described wargaming as 'creepy'.

I'm loathe to think about how they would view roleplaying... shudder

Still, your TV comments have some merit!


Have fun,
Bill

 

[parmasson]

Wargaming cannot possibly be creepy.
It is just like checkers, but with better pieces, and fun.
Just call me creepy and deviant!

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Scarecrow, we played plenty of role-playing sessions at the Air Force Academy with alcohol in hand! That was also the only group I was in that had women gamers: 2! (Sadly, one passed away in a car wreck before graduation. We missed Sandy immensely. )

(Oh! And, no, the car wreck was not alcohol-related! We would drink at the rec hall, and walk back to our rooms....)

 

[aramis]

I've often had female players in my groups. SOme were there because they wanted to play, others because they were hanging with the S/O... many ofthe latter have since taken up the hobby.

My current group: two ladies and their husbands, plus two unattached males (one a youth). I am the GM, and one of those two husbands. The ladies are the driving force.

But only one of those two ladies does Sci-Fi (my wife).

 

[siefertma2]

Sadly, I haven't had much luck when it comes to women and gaming... heck, with women in general.

In my 30 years of life, I have only had one--count them, ONE--girlfriend. I didn't date in high school since I was a social outcast and no female would talk to me beyond "get out of my way, geek." I met my first and only GF in college and she initially asked ME out since I was too freakin' scared of rejection to even considered it.

Anyway, at first I thought we had a lot in common, similar backgrounds, similar interests, etc. She wasn't a gamer, but she seemed like the type who might be interested. So, I started things simply with Full Thrust. (Get your minds out of the gutter this instant! I didn't name the blasted game!)

We played a few games, however she couldn't wrap her head around the movement system no matter how many ways I tried to explain it. We even went to one day of GenCon together. However, after that, she suggested that I go alone the next year since I "was having too much fin."

Eventually, after a year, it seems my novelty had worn off. She wanted to see less and less of me and when we were out together she seemed to embarassed by our relationship. She didn't want to play FT anymore (or anything else) and started to rail against my "childish" hobbies more and more. In her mind, a 22-year-old man should be playing "kid's games." Eventually, she dumped me, and on the very same day my father moved out of our house during my parents bitter divorce. That was 8 years ago and I have dated anyone since.

I would not dare date a woman who wasn't a gamer. After the last woman, I don't feel I have to justify my hobbies to anyone. Nor do I want an SO who thinks that she can sexually blackmail me into changing who I am by withholding "nookie" from me if I don't act the way she demands. Dating a female gamer would take the edge off that problem. The trouble is, finding one.

Yes, I've met more than my fair share of female gamers, and they are always never available. It sucks to go to a game convention and find out that all the women are spoken for somehow.

I'm going to die a bitter, lonely, old man... too late, I'm already old.

 

[Scarecrow]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Scarecrow, we played plenty of role-playing sessions at the Air Force Academy with alcohol in hand!

Oh yes, I too have enjoyed the occaisional session while under the influence. I'm sorry to hear about your friend too.

I guess what I was trying to say is that here in the UK we are, sadly a nation of drinkers and no past-time seems to be given any credibility amongst the masses unless it involves alcohol. So football and nightclubs are okay, roleplaying and bowling and going to the theatre etc etc are to be frowned upon. Actually going to the cinema is an exception to this rule - not sure why.

I don't drink anymore. Not for any particular reason than my wife is tea-total and loathes drunkards. She equally hates pubs and bars so our social life tends not to include alcohol atall - and I feel much better for it - it is, however murder trying to get our friends to do anything other than 'go down the pub.'

Talking of my wife, I've never bothered trying to get her interested, and I really don't think she would be. For a start, she frowns on anything that involves violence - whatever the reason or justification - and I think on the whole is about as interested in roleplaying as I would be in, say, shoe-shopping. It's just not her thing.
I actually remember sitting next to her, once flicking through the T20 PHB and she was glancing across and commented that it looked 'very violent.' I explained that it depends on how you play it etc.. but haven't gone really beyond that. In spite of this, she enjoys the occaisional video game (usually the cutesy variety - but then that's my preference too) and loves board games.

I've gotten previous girlfriends to roleplay but they more often than not gave the impression that they'd rather be, say, shoe-shopping.

And then there's Kaye, who is the sole female member of my current group. her games of choice are Vampire, Werewolf and Shadowrun. I know the group ran a Traveller session a couple of weeks before I joined them and I believe she sat it out, I don't think she's really into Sci-fi. More a Fantasy/Horror type (she is a goth afterall).
She's also a creative manager (aka lead artist) at my current company and coincidentally enough, she is actually giving a lecture at the 'Women in Games' conference in Glasgow (I think) in a couple of weeks time.

Crow

PS - my wife would like to point out that she is not particularly interested in shoe-shopping.

 

[RickA]

My wife plays, and my ex-wife played, but I'm 99% certain that it's only because I play every week. If my current wife became an ex for some godawful reason, I know she'd not continue gaming, so it's not that she's all that into it. She has some fun with it, but not so much that she'd go out of her way to seek a gaming group.

 

[RickA]

E.A. -

If I sat down at any Twilight 2000 RPG I'd well expect to spend the next two hours listening to people argue and talk about the minutae of various obscure weapons systems. At least, that's what most T2000 games I ever played in came down to: the gun fanatics going on and on about their favorite hobby.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Never had a problem with finding female gamers for an RPG.

Maybe I was lucky, maybe the folk who rotated through the GM's chair gave us our meat n taters combats, as well as good RP moments...

Most female gamers I've encountered as BG has previously stated, favor the RP-ing part, so if yer following scripted adventures, and its most kick-in-thedoor-what-do-we get, ye shant be holding the ladies interest much.

EaKers has some valid points though, and I'm glad she shared them with us. And as part of the original Ursula-campaign, where she played a female Aslan Naval officer (the vessel's XO), she excelled...

One of the advantages I've pursued at Cons [SF, Gaming] was to find time to sit down and talk to women gamers present and pick their brains on what they liked in an RPG adventure, and so on.

Not as a 'hit-on-the -chick' thing, but to honestly ask what did they like about the tournament they were just in, dislikes in the plot, and what kind of characters they portrayed, or liked/ disliked in their group. Working in the Memphis TN Con circuit 1984-88 as a tournament writer did have some advantages!

 

[parmasson]

Mark don't give up hope!
I too once felt your pain. Now I have a that wife is a comic book geek and sci-fi/fantasy nut. We have a daughter and I will raise her as a sci-fi nut.

They are out there just keep looking.

 

[parmasson]

If you must game under the influence make it a good wine out of the correct stemware. Not necessarily an expensive vintage but no wine that comes in "flavors" or a cardboard box. The ladies as a rule are not big fans of beer fueled mayhem. I know that there are exceptions but look at who beer is marketed to.

The point is to keep it civilized while the planetary bombardment is going on.