Women gamers

[RickA]

Originally posted by E. A. Kinser:
I'd say I've seen a couple posts on this thread that have it just about right. Cohesive plot, realistic characters, and role playing versus roll playing are certainly the sorts of things that women gamers look for. Though I can understand gearheading and I can get into it to a limited degree deep geek gearheading really bores me. I have no real interest in how many cubic feet of atmosphere a life-support system can process in an hour. It's more than sufficient for the GM to pull a number out of thin air and keep the game going smoothly.

Now... how to get women gamers interested specifically in 'Traveller'? I don't have an answer for that one. I could tell you how I became interested in Traveller, but unless you're willing to grow your women gamers from scratch I doubt it'd be much help, and it'd take far too long.

Sorry to quote so much from the previous post, but I think this is a very important post and bears repeating and analysis.

/ramble on

One of the biggest hurdles for most females entering sci fi (whether novels, movies, rpgs) is the deep geek minutae factor. Remember the geek kids in Galaxy Quest? Few men (myself and some of you exceptions I'm sure) want to see themselves in that light, loo, and even fewer women.

Fantasy games and books are different. They are almost always more character-centric, with more role-play and less roll-play. Call of Cthulhu even better for female gamers, as I've found in the CoC campaigns I've run. It's set in a romantic era (1920's) and almost inevitably is combat-shy (so less mechanics and dice rolling), is very story oriented due to the attempt to build tension and horror.

I've been running games for... longer than I care to admit, lol. And with only one exception the female gamers in my groups have always enjoyed the story based sort of adventures moreso than games in which mechanics are focused on.

How that relates to Traveller? Almost all of the Traveller adventures I've seen in print are pretty cold. I'm about to start the Chimera EPIC, for example. This one is really pretty well done, so I hate to pick on it, but even thought it's a large step forward from Across the Glimmerdrift it's still cold. If you run it out of the book there are too few character encounters, too few rp events that are focal, if you are trying to make a game that appeals to female gamers. Luckily this particular module is pretty close, so add in an adult daughter for the professor so that there can be some interaction there and a few sympathetic commoners and you're on your way.

Point is, even this well made module (better than Stoner Express and much better than Across the Glimmerdrift) needs work to be suited to a story based group or players.

Almost all sci-fi games have this issue imho. Too much gear head, not enough personality interactions and plot drives.

/ramble off

 

[RickA]

Oh, one more bit.

I forgot to put in my theory on why sci fi and modern games tend to the mechanical instead of the story.

First, whether playing a super hero rpg, a sci fi rpg (in whatever flavor), or other sort of Modern or Later game, there are a lot of TOYS. Guns, cars, James Bond gadgets, spaceships, you name it, there's a lot of that stuff and it's a part of the game/book/movie inevitably. Nothing wrong with that, but it can be focused on too much at a gaming table.

Second, writing story based adventures in module form for fantasy (and even for 1920's CoC) is relatively easy. Writing for Modern or later is HARD. It's VERY HARD. Why, oh why, is the local karate club invenstigating the Oklahoma City bombing?? Answer? They aren't, the local authorities are, and they are doing so with resources and competence that the local sleuth club can't match. And if the local amateur stamp collectors can match that competence then there is an immediate and yawning gulf of believability present at the game table. Too hard to suspend disbelief.

This is part of that "cohesive plot, believable characters" thing that E.A. was talking about. It's extremely challenging to come up with things for private citizens to do that are adventurous in a sci fi game, which is why, imho, it's so danged hard to find good modules for sci fi games.

 

[clementk]

Good posts in this thread.

Sorry to hear Eakers.

Unfortunately (except for the best player award patronizing) that’s usually how TW2K sessions I’ve been in have played, with or without women present. Gun bunnies (in the negative sense of the term) playing mostly Spec Ops characters looking for more toys from the shopping catalog and comparing barrel lengths. Kick the door in, kill the Franco-Russians, and loot their guns and vehicles. As has been said before in this thread though it’s the gm and the group and what they do with the game.

I wouldn’t write miniature gaming off completely (granted I also miniature game). Some of the Skirmish games are lighter ruleswise than RPGs and have about as much room for character play and interaction. They’re well suited for conventions. Usually each player has one figure to one unit. IMX the Gaslight*, Colonial, Western, Steampunk, or Pulp games tend to have the most character play and are a hoot. Look for miniature Zeppelins and refs with pith helmets on.

One general suggestion would be to play a variety of games (or at least campaigns) and not just RPGs if your group is fine with that. A bit of change of pace is good regardless and it’s a big step from non-gamer to gamer and from that to roleplayer. Being friendly, answering questions, and making sure to involve every player and engage onlookers can go a long way as well.

As always YMMV and HTH.

* fwiw the G.A.S.L.I.G.H.T. game is one of the best currently in print and has a RPG variant

 

[Eak]

Hello... wow... lots of posts to respond to.

I'm sorry for the length of the post but I don't think I can cut it down any more than it is.

--
From Bill Cameron

Sadly, your female friend seems to have wandered into a group of minis players masquerading as RPGers at that convention. It looks as if the GM hosted a game he knew would be mostly filled by people he knew and thus tailored the game for their taste. That's always a bad thing at a convention as you never know who'll come looking for your table.

There's nothing wrong with being a minis player, I'm one and play minis more than RPGs these days, but they should have been more forthcoming with the session's description.

Yeah, I know intellectually there's absolutely nothing wrong with Mini Games or Mini Game Players. Lots of people I work with and hang out with on a regular basis play Mini games, mostly Mordheim and Battletech. Including my most recent S.O. I've tried 'em, I've sat in and watched a couple games, I enjoy painting minis almost more than is probably healthy. I just don't really enjoy games that don't involve some sort of unifying plot or characterization. I'm also really sorry to hear about how some folks seem to think about miniature games. I've never noticed that kind of reaction or behaviour around here but then I don't play them. I'm not going to accuse the DM of not being very forthcoming in the game description. In my opinion gaming is really what you make of it and like I said, He did only have a three hour block to do anything with and as the common phrase goes YMMV. It was more the way all the little factors kinda blended together to make an unsatisfying whole.

--
From Mark A. Siefert

Eventually, after a year, it seems my novelty had worn off. She wanted to see less and less of me and when we were out together she seemed to embarrassed by our relationship. She didn't want to play FT any more (or anything else) and started to rail against my "childish" hobbies more and more. In her mind, a 22-year-old man should be playing "kid's games."

Hey Mark! LTNS!
Honestly dude... if RPG's are considered "childish games" then I never want to grow up because growing up means growing old, and growing old is definitely not on my 'To-Do' list. I expect to be wrinkly and confined to a wheelchair before I want to give up RPG's and I think I'd prefer to 'check out' before I get all wrinkly and confined to a wheelchair.

Seriously though... Parmasson is right. Don't give up hope, truly anything is possible. It's the probabilities that trip us up and in my opinion there's no such thing as fate. Each of us is at the helm of our own destiny. It's the choices we make and the situations we put ourselves in that determine the factors surrounding the events of our lives.

--
From RickA

If I sat down at any Twilight 2000 RPG I'd well expect to spend the next two hours listening to people argue and talk about the minutae of various obscure weapons systems. At least, that's what most T2000 games I ever played in came down to: the gun fanatics going on and on about their favourite hobby. [Smile]

Well Technically Rick, you could say the same thing about any game with guns including Traveller, Morrow Project, Afganistan D20, Fringworthy and all four of these are among my fave games to play. In particular I've been involved in some killer Morrow Project Games that had lots of action, lots of guns, explosions, arty, toe-poppers made from 12 gauge shotgun shells, lots of grenades... and we still found time to get into the roles of our characters and have some great 'in character' conversations about life, the universe, and Bruce Morrow. When I sat down at that table I really wasn't expecting what happened. In all honesty that was the first time that sort of thing had ever happened to me at a convention and I've been playing games and attending gaming conventions for longer than I really wanna say.

--
From Liam Devlin

Eakers has some valid points though, and I'm glad she shared them with us. And as part of the original Ursula-campaign, where she played a female Aslan Naval officer (the vessel's XO), she excelled...

Liam! *hug* Honestly I don't think I can say I really participated in that game very much. I was definitely prepared and willing at the time until real life events pulled me away from it. That character was definitely one of my personal favourites even if I didn't get to do much with her then. I did save all the documentation I had on her so maybe I can use her in the future for something else.

--
From Casey

One general suggestion would be to play a variety of games (or at least campaigns) and not just RPGs if your group is fine with that.

Casey, did you enjoy Origins?
Actually both of the groups I'm involved with right now switch campaigns every couple months and we sometimes break it up with the odd board game or two... usually something beer and pretzels to break up the monotony of going from one dramatic theme to another.

--
For Everyone
Quite a few good ideas and thoughts have been discussed... so what's next? What are we going to do about it? Do we have an action plan? Should we get up, go out, and preach to the distaff masses on a street corner? Other than inviting friends or lovers to a game with the hope that they'll enjoy it what are some positive things we can actively do to stir up our community or promote Sci-Fi gaming to women? Does anyone have any ideas?

Oh and everybody! Please take Liam's example and just call me Eak or some variation thereof, I kinda use my initials like a nickname since they're just so... neat

P.S. Scarecrow! I'm in love with your Scout Courier design! Are the Models and Textures available for download anyplace or are they a Corporate/State Secret? And Tell your wife 'Right-On' for me. I can't stand shoe shopping either.

 

[RickA]

Yah, you can run into gadget nuts in any game, I'm just saying that 100% of the T2K games I've been in were full of 'em. Me, I'd like to see a T2K game where plot and character were important, it's what I enjoy. But, like many modern or later games, there is a dearth of adventure modules that focus on such things.

I think that's a big point, that premade adventures for games set much of the tone or flavor of the game at most game tables. Even if you aren't playing a module odds are the GM has used them for that game system at some point so his own views of what a professionally produced T2K (for example) module are will be heavily influenced by the modules he's perused.

/sigh/ If only I were good enough to write them for publication.

You could make a three part mini-campaign out of just the "Across the Glimmerdrift" module for T20. Flesh out and detail the journey to 015-424, and then go to town on the whole rebellion against the local dictator there. So much that can be done with it that a lot of GM's don't have time to do themselves (that's why they buy modules).

 

[Jame]

So, out of the 48 who voted, 46 are men and 2 are women. Seems to me we USED to have more women here... I wonder what happened?

 

[Flynn]

They read some of the responses on this topic?

Just kiddin',
Flynn

 

[Andrew Boulton]

They're too busy doing the cooking and the cleaning and...ow!

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Bad Andrew...Very Naughty

 

[Liam Devlin]

Liam! *hug* Honestly I don't think I can say I really participated in that game very much. I was definitely prepared and willing at the time until real life events pulled me away from it. That character was definitely one of my personal favourites even if I didn't get to do much with her then. I did save all the documentation I had on her so maybe I can use her in the future for something else.

EaK--
UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMF! Ty fer da hug, been a hard week of RW-RL stress! You go girl!

 

[Madarin Dude]

Allthough it is nice to have a few women gamers in your group there is nothing wrong with having a hobby that most women don't like.
for those of you who only want a woman gamer as a wife I say get real. There are many hobbies that peopel take a passion too that members of the opposite sex do not. I used to have a lot of friends who wre motorheads they loved old cars and loved to fix them up and tweak them for optimum performance. Did they ever say they need a girlfriend who is a motherhead too. No. Did they have girlfriends yes. You have to be realistic if it is not a popular hobby with the opposite sex so what.
Find someone who likes you for who you are and does not take offense at you having a hobby.

 

[RickA]

Madarin Dude, you're right on in that your spouse doesn't HAVE to share your passions, but if you're a motorhead and you find a good looking woman who also really loves cars and you happen to be compatible in other ways... well, that's just about perfection. I'm lucky that way, my wife is at least a fairly dedicated gamer.

And she likes old hot rod cars, so I'm counting my blessings.

 

[Chuck Anumia]

I agree Rick.
My wife is not a Gamer but we both like reading and the outdoors a lot and go camping almost every month of the year.

(She is also just under the Black Belt level in Karate)

 

[Theo D Lite]

My wife, who was just my girlfriend at the time, drifted into gaming through painting all the minitures I'd bought and never painted.

We still have a large number of unpainted minatures, but less than we would have if she hadn't got interested.

Since our gaming group went it's separate ways and the kids were born gaming has been on the back burner, but I still do a bit of ship (LBB5) or vehicle (STRIKER) design particularly on holidays to while away the evenings with a glass or two of wine.

Lately my wife's gone a bit gothic and she's started re-reading Call of Cathulu. I went and downloaded Witchcraft from the free section of DTRPG for her last week and she quite likes the look and feel of that.

So I guess this bares out the thoughts of others on this thread that it is the characterisation and setting that is more important than the combat and science.

 

[kafka47]

Just found out an interesting factoid from my wife. The reason why she distains RPGs is that it reminds her too much like the oral exams that she had to do in the USSR. Thinking quickly on her feet, as one drew a question from a collective pot and being evaluated on her answer makes reluctant to go further with RPGs.

I wonder if this is common to others. I, for one always loved oral exams, as I knew that I could always cover the subject how I wanted to, rather than being a prisoner of rewritten and clarifying. But, then again, I have been doing RPGs since High School...so the groundwork was well laid.

 

[Maladominus]

Having played numerous MMORPGs that have TENS OF THOUSANDS of female gamers.... I have drawn some conclusions.

1) Female gamers love Roleplay, and they are attracted to social games that include lots of interpersonal interaction. I am not going to start saying stereotypes like "Well, females are social creatures". But this has been my observation.


2) Just as #1 is true, it is also my observation that most female gamers are LESS ATTRACTED to bang-bang shoot-em-up pure-violence 1st person shooter games that we males enjoy all the time.


3) It is my observation that IF you let a female gamer play an online RPG such as Star Wars Galaxies, she has a very high chance of BEING ATTRACTED to the non-combat professions. You see, games like SWG actually allow you to roleplay an avatar that can spend your entire character career doing things like: Tailoring, Dancer, Musician, Engineer, Merchant, etc.

This does NOT mean that female gamers do not enjoy shooting laser pistols or brandishing a +5 magical broadsword. I do know that many female gamers do love action too. It's just my observation that a large percentage of females do enjoy the non-combat roles, and they are happy when they have the non-combat professions as their OPTIONS.


4) Traveller is a game that has huge potential to draw lots of female gamers (my opinion, of course). The game has all the elements that could attract female gamers. Socialization, interaction, tons of opportunity for roleplay, and the character profession choices are broad.... you can be anything from a FreeTrader, to a Bureaucrat/Diplomat, to an Archaeologist, to a grungy Imperial Marine.

I do not know of current statistics on what percentage of Traveller players have been female gamers.

 

[Malenfant]

You do realise that most female characters on MMORPGs are not played by female players, right? Not that they aren't out there, but it's less than it looks like.

 

[Maladominus]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
You do realise that most female characters on MMORPGs are not played by female players, right? Not that they aren't out there, but it's less than it looks like.

I absolutely realize that. I even know a few vulgar words that are used to refer to male players who play female toons.

My point is that even tho females may still be the minority even in MMORPGs.... companies like Sony and Blizzard can truthfully claim having many thousands of females that subscribe to play MMORPGs. ONLY MMORPGs can ever make this claim. No other type of PC game can ever claim having that many female players.... except for The Sims.

Not sure what it is about The Sims that attracts TONS of female gamers to play it....

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
Not sure what it is about The Sims that attracts TONS of female gamers to play it....

Definitely not the same thing that attracts the male players (certain hacks...).

I would be interested to know how many female Travellers liked the various versions of Traveller? Why? Well, TNE seems to have a lot more of those professions mentioned above than CT, MT or T20. (I'm not familiar with T4 at all, yet - waiting for a free download from DTRPG.)

And, Maladominus, what's wrong with males playing female characters? I know what's wrong with some males who play females, but....

I was forced to play a female character once by a GM who thought I had a munchkin - and very creatively railroaded me into it. Actually had a lot of fun in that game.

 

[RickA]

A true test of a "role player" is to see if they can play a female character without making her into a lesbian or a slut.