World Building.

[Reban]

There's a good question emerging here "How do Scouts go about their work?".

My understanding is that the IISS at least only conducts a survey not a census of a planet or system.

A survey is a general view or measurement while a census is an official count of population.

If the Scout's methodology for the survey is to count every habitation from orbit and assign 2.5 sophonts to each that's going to give a Pop figure other than 0 even if the population is transient. However if they do a Neural Activity scan and find 1000 empty habitations that's going to be Pop 0.

Even if they conduct a door to door census, it could return Pop 0 if everybody has gone to the moon on census night.

Scouts might also depend on official figures provided by another agency like the Starport Authority or World Government.

 

[BytePro]

All this... no one method is believably going to accurately handle all situations.

Did the world 'allow' Scouts to do a physical survey .. are certain populations intentionally or unintentionally shielded from high tech scanners .. was the survey and equipment intentionally interfered with by advanced locals .. is the starport temporarily shutdown during the survey (all kinds of reasons for this) - and therefore everyone gone .. did Scout sensors, or data reporting fail (not what I consider likely, but then with tens of thousands of system, I'd buy it once or thrice) .. did the entire population perish but automation is still functioning .. is everyone intentionally hiding (pirates, fear of pirates) .. did someone falsify records to hide something (treasure! - military buildup - slave system - government screwup) .. did individual scouts falsify records for personal gain, principles (protection) ...

Really, these are all just right off the cuff almost as fast as I can type. <shurg>

The arguments against are paper thin, at best...

 

[McPerth]

As you say, there are many ways for the scouts to assess the population of a system, but, IMHO, their easiest option is just to ask the local governement(s) about thier census.

This is how most governements/agencies do it today, AFAIK. The municipalities make their census, while the governments ask for them to the municipalities, and supranational agencies ask the governments. Aside from being the easiest way is the one that will give you more coherent results (as far as the census are done correctly by the municipalities).

Of course, this may not work for low tech or very dispersed populations, where no reliable census is done.

 

[rancke]

As you say, there are many ways for the scouts to assess the population of a system, but, IMHO, their easiest option is just to ask the local governement(s) about thier census.

On the other hand, the Scouts may want accurate numbers. Even when governments conduct censuses, they have been known to be inaccurate.


Hans

 

[Reban]

As you say, there are many ways for the scouts to assess the population of a system, but, IMHO, their easiest option is just to ask the local governement(s) about thier census.

"Oh, them!? We don't count "them", after all they eat their boiled eggs by chopping off the big end with a knife. I mean honestly, is that a sign of true sentience?" :nonono:

This is how most governements/agencies do it today, AFAIK. The municipalities make their census, while the governments ask for them to the municipalities, and supranational agencies ask the governments. Aside from being the easiest way is the one that will give you more coherent results (as far as the census are done correctly by the municipalities).

Of course, this may not work for low tech or very dispersed populations, where no reliable census is done.

Some national governments maintain a single agency responsible collection of census data and statistical information. There are good reasons the Imperium might not subcontract collection of census data. One example might be taxation and another resource allocation and planning.

But I'm not convinced that the Scouts collect census data. The wide bands of the Pop code are more like estimates based on survey data.

 

[Marchand]

In the CT module Imperial Fringe, the PCs are tasked with auditing UPPs for the Spinward Marches. For Population, the suggested MO is as follows:

[If anyone needs a Spoiler Alert for this adventure, please look away now...]

"Value determined from orbital scans of world. Sensed value may vary from true value based on local tech level: referee may provide inaccurate readings on first two readings made by the crew."

I guess the Scout Service would use local government census data cross-checked by a quick look at scan data. If something didn't add up, only then would they devote resources to investigating further - if it seemed worth it.

 

[Dagrill]

And keep in mind that to get a Class A starport rating, you need to provide all the other services a Class A starport provides. A shipyard alone does not a Class A starport make. So there's another source of employment.
Hans

Hi,

sorry to go back to this but I looked at TCS and assuming a GM of 1 a pop of 1,000 can only build 1 ton per year. I then looked at Mongoose HG p140 and
worked out that a Superfreighter with 24 kton of low berths, 2 kt of double occupancy staterooms, 26 kton of raw materials and about 1.5 kton of baggage
could transport 49,000 people a month over a 3 parsec range, multiplying by 12 gives about 600,000 imported workers and allows 8% at a time to be on holiday,
holiday would be 2 weeks at home and 2 weeks in low berth for most.

It just does not seem economically viable, or that anyone would agree to such working conditions and this ignores sickness, absenteeism, low berth accidents, misjumps and the rest of the population besides shipyard worlers.

You would need more than a single 32,000 MCr Ship, escorts, sdb's as well.

I think the more closely you look at world gen the more it falls apart.

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

But are there any canon examples that work? Take Pixie, for example. If Pixie actually do have thousands of transients working for General Shipyards and operating shipyard and starport, why does the Imperium consider a handful of transient belters with no government the sovereign population instead of counting General Shipyard's manager as the local ruler (a captive ruler, of course). And the belters are going to be just as transient as the General Shipyards people; 90 people is not a viable population.
And if there really are thousands of transients living on Pixie, how come they don't generate any trade or traffic at all? According to the trade rules, freight and passengers are generated with the modifiers the official population score provide for.
Hans

Hi,

True, since the population is based on a size 1 planet rather than a size 0 belt,
one explanation I can think of (other than changing the figures) is that the moon is where the belters hang out and the when the scouts visited they got them drunk (or otherwise compliant) & persuaded them to send in a sealed report with the belters as the government. GS is haapy with this as since they are not the government they don't need to waste resources protecting the belters.

Regards

David

 

[rancke]

sorry to go back to this but I looked at TCS and assuming a GM of 1 a pop of 1,000 can only build 1 ton per year.

No, a population of 1000 only have enough shipyard capacity to work on one dT at a time. That doesn't mean that all 1000 are involved in working on the ship. There will be shipyard workers (perhaps 1 in 1000), manufacturers of subcomponents, miners to dig out the ore and smelters to refine the metals, farmers to grow the food they eat, and all the other professions of a fully diversified society, including children and retirees.

IMTU I've been working with the possibility of a "one-crop" world where that crop is starships. Such a world might be able to work on one dT per 100 inhabitants and still maintain a fairly diversified society, but the shipbuilding industry would be very dominant.

An advance base dedicated to building starships from scratch (digging ore, smelting metal, manufacturing components, assembling them) might be able to work on one dT per 10 inhabitants.

And a shipyard that assembles components might employ 1 worker per dT. (Note that this would still require 600 inhabitants (plus some more to run the starport) on Pixie. Any shipyard that can work on ships of any real size would run into pop 4 and 5.)

Note that all numbers are pure guesswork and are, obviously, chosen for the power of ten reduction in manpower for each 'step' down. So at the moment it is only a very rough rule of thumb I employ. Also, it is very much not canon.


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

In the CT module Imperial Fringe, the PCs are tasked with auditing UPPs for the Spinward Marches. For Population, the suggested MO is as follows:

Hi,

I vaguely remember this, which brings in the question of how long does it take to scan a world? If the survey ship only spends a week in each system and some time is spent refueling perhaps there is only time to run a single scan on each body in the system, still don't see how they could miss GS in Pixie system though....

Regards

David

 

[rancke]

In the CT module Imperial Fringe...

I'm afraid I can't take the premise of Imperial Fringe seriously.

I started out writing a sizable paragraph wherein I explained what I find unbelievable about the setup in IF, but I stopped half-way and deleted it. If I have to explain why it is unbelievable, I'd just get into another of those discussions that apparently give me a bad reputation.

So anyone who disagree with me about IF being unbelievable, let's agree to disagree right from the start, OK?


Hans