Yacht: Jump-1 or Jump-4 ?

[BetterThanLife]

Now I thought that "Grand Fleet" was Approved for Traveller. (Says so right on the cover.) Doesn't that make it canon? The Nobility is outside the Naval Chain of command. they don't have the authority to commandeer Naval Vessels or Personell.

Though they can request support, in the form of such a vessel. There will certainly be times when a Noble wouldn't want to travel aboard a Naval vessel. However it would probably be rare for the high nobility of the imperium to go jaunting about without a Naval vessel riding Gunslinger because it "just happens to be going the same way."

Another use for those Discretionary Patrols.

By the way the Desiree Keah, appears to me to be the perfect conveyance for the typical Nobility, even the Sector Dukes. Given the scale of non-military vessels presented in Canon a Yacht of more than 1000 tons would be rare indeed. Most ships over 1000 tons are naval vessels or purpose built merchants with a specific role in mind. Virtually all canon ships over 5000 tons are Naval vessels. Just because ships can be built that large there is no real reason that they would be. After all the very rich don't build yachts the size of Aircraft Carriers or Super Tankers. (They aren't even as big as a typical Destroyer or Ocean Liner.) The Desiree Keah is enough for your personal guards, a staff and a dozen or so of your closest friends and sycophants.

 

[veltyen]

Apologies for being a little offtopic.

Largest private yachts in the world

They get over 150m, which is certainly a healthy destroyer size. Still not into the larger capital vessel/commercial vessel sizes. The number of private yachts over 100m is minute however (about 10 worldwide). So sure, there may be the occasional 2kdTon to 5kdTon personal yacht, but they would be rare as hell.

 

[Hal]

Something to consider in the discussion about the fleets...

1) Planetary fleets are detailed
2) Imperial Navy fleets are detailed
3) Subsector fleets? What's that?

Talk about what a Subsector Duke or Sector Duke knows or doesn't know is perhaps an interesting exercise - but when applying the realities of real world to a fantasy world, you have two choices.

A) Use reality as a foundation for the fantasy: this is because it was needed in reality, and therefore, assuming the fantasy is realistic, would also be needed in Fantasy

B) Ignore reality and make it what you wish: this is because some details take too long to make up and/or research and you want to have fun - not write a theisis or book on the topic.

My initial take on Bill's comment is that he's more squarely in the A camp, while those who want to go counter to his points are in the B camp. Nothing wrong with either camp

As for myself? The state controls the tools of the state. Simple enough to fathom here. And as Bill points out - being out of the decision loop is not a good idea. Where Bill misses one critical point however, is that if the Heads of state ever go into jumpspace, they run the risk by being in jumpspace, of being out of communications in the first place. That having been said? Which would you rater have to do if you were the head of state?

A) wait until you reach port, to absorb 900 communcation channel's worth of info on your rinky dink yatch or

B) receive the data flood on a ship designed to handle it?

If B? Then get the ship capable of handling it.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Now I thought that "Grand Fleet" was Approved for Traveller. (Says so right on the cover.) Doesn't that make it canon? The Nobility is outside the Naval Chain of command. They don't have the authority to commandeer Naval Vessels or Personell.

GT Nobles is canon too , it says nobles (of a certain rank and authority) override/oversee the local naval chain of command...

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Now I thought that "Grand Fleet" was Approved for Traveller. (Says so right on the cover.) Doesn't that make it canon? The Nobility is outside the Naval Chain of command. They don't have the authority to commandeer Naval Vessels or Personell.

GT Nobles is canon too , it says nobles (of a certain rank and authority) override/oversee the local naval chain of command... </font>[/QUOTE]And I thought GT was "Alternate Canon" says so right on SJG's website.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Hal:
Something to consider in the discussion about the fleets...

1) Planetary fleets are detailed
2) Imperial Navy fleets are detailed
3) Subsector fleets? What's that?

Defined rather nicely in MJD's Grand Fleet actually.

Talk about what a Subsector Duke or Sector Duke knows or doesn't know is perhaps an interesting exercise - but when applying the realities of real world to a fantasy world, you have two choices.

A) Use reality as a foundation for the fantasy: this is because it was needed in reality, and therefore, assuming the fantasy is realistic, would also be needed in Fantasy

B) Ignore reality and make it what you wish: this is because some details take too long to make up and/or research and you want to have fun - not write a theisis or book on the topic.

My initial take on Bill's comment is that he's more squarely in the A camp, while those who want to go counter to his points are in the B camp. Nothing wrong with either camp

As for myself? The state controls the tools of the state. Simple enough to fathom here. And as Bill points out - being out of the decision loop is not a good idea. Where Bill misses one critical point however, is that if the Heads of state ever go into jumpspace, they run the risk by being in jumpspace, of being out of communications in the first place. That having been said? Which would you rater have to do if you were the head of state?

A) wait until you reach port, to absorb 900 communcation channel's worth of info on your rinky dink yatch or

B) receive the data flood on a ship designed to handle it?

If B? Then get the ship capable of handling it.

Actually it isn't a question of what a Noble may know or not know. It is more a question of where his authority lies and what it actually covers. As for the choices above, if a Noble is travelling about, then he is going to get a flood of information as soon as he arrives in system. (As there is no way to communicate while in jumpspace.) A Model 4 computer is certainly capable of handling, processing and filtering the communication as it comes in. Process all that information, plus the information from a powerful sensor array, determine combat threats, probable hostile intent, etc, that is probably a minimum of a model 5. Combine the two and throw in firecontrol for a serious combination of weapons, go model 7 plus.

Given that assumption, and it is just that, unfortunately, a Model 4-5 computer on the Noble's Yacht is sufficeint, leave the CIC on the escorts.

 

[mike wightman]

It fits with the way things work in MT

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
It fits with the way things work in MT

True, but there is no Central Government in MT.

(Which is why SJG went to Alternate Canon in the first place.

)

Norris took fleet control by virtue of an Imperial Warant, not by virtue of being a Duke. (Which is also laid out in Grand Fleet.)

 

[mike wightman]

No, he took control of the fleet by promoting himself - via the warrant - to archduke

Unless you mean the FFW warrant which he used to overrule the commands of the Sector Admiral - who was himself appointed by the Sector Duke , depending on which books you read

 

[Hal]

Bhoins - that is why I was VERY happy that Grand Fleet came out. I was saddened to discover that when SJGames had the opportunity to bring that book out themselves, they did NOT do so. I'm not going to speculate why they didn't go with the Grand Fleet material, nor am I going to point a finger of shame at them. I am going to say however, that it is a shame that SJGames had to rethink their strategy regards to the license they obtained for the sales of GURPS TRAVELLER to the extent that they no longer feel it is profitable to create GURPS TRAVELLER books per se. Lets see what happens with Interstellar Wars...

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
No, he took control of the fleet by promoting himself - via the warrant - to archduke

Unless you mean the FFW warrant which he used to overrule the commands of the Sector Admiral - who was himself appointed by the Sector Duke , depending on which books you read

If you don't read the GT material, and stick to the MT material, the Challenge material, etc. I have yet to see anything official that the Sector Admiral was appointed by anyone other than the Imperial Navy. And the material in Grand Fleet to that effect, that the Political Masters, ie. Archdukes, Dukes, et al., may request, may advise, but may not command, unless they are also in the Naval chain of command by virtue of Naval service and happen to be a Duke serving in the Navy. that makes for a clear cut chain of command and makes much more sense for a military mind. Further it makes more sense based on how the Third Imperium got to where it is before the Rebellion. (1100s or so.) the Navy placed the Regent on the throne and ended the Civil War. So the Navy would have had a bit of influence in how it answers to authority. Simple chains of command make much more sense.

A Modern analogy might be the Governor of Texas, going to Ft. Hood and attempting to commandeer an Infantry Batalion to deal with the Branch Davidians near Waco. Or the Mayor of Junction City, KS tasking the First Infantry Division to provide street security during a parade, because the unit is in their political domain.

 

[mike wightman]

There is an obvious flaw in your modern analogy though:

A Modern analogy might be the Governor of Texas, going to Ft. Hood and attempting to commandeer an Infantry Batalion to deal with the Branch Davidians near Waco. Or the Mayor of Junction City, KS tasking the First Infantry Division to provide street security during a parade, because the unit is in their political domain.

and that flaw is the speed with which the Governor of Texas could request that troop deployment from the President.

Try thinking about Presidential authority being months or years away - it would be up to the politician "on the ground" so to speak to authorise military operations.

Unless the military is a law unto themselves.

If the OTU Imperium is supposed to be feudal then the GT Nobles system makes more sense IMHO

YMMV.

 

[mike wightman]

A chain of command that takes twenty weeks to send operational intelligence up the chain and receive orders down the chain isn't a command chain - it's a ball and chain

 

[aramis]

That's another good reason for Armed Yachts... They can be close enough to an action to make decisions.

The one thing that a Working Noble's yacht should have is 6G. It's not a pleasure craft. It's a C^4 mobile CP, not a lounging locale.

Here's a more reasonable Working "Yacht, CnC"
YC TL-F
Hull 1000Td Wedge SL MCr120 (20DUR)
Bridge 20Td MCr5
Comp (9399fib) 12EP 6.6Td MCr162
JD6x20 70Td MCr280 60EP
JFuel 600td
MD6x20 170Td, 60EP MCr85
Fusion15PPx40 40Td 80EP, MCr120
PPF 40
Turret HPx10 10Td MCr1
FPP15x1 3Td MCr0.03
2xSR 8Td (Noble, CO) MCr1
16xCabin 32Td MCr4 (15 crew, of whom 6 are doubles, for 11, plus three Staff. In a pinch, All but the Exec could be doubles, thus being 8, leaving room for 4 bodyguard in two more, and 6 staff )
1000Td MCr558.03

1x Noble
1x Captain
1x 1O
2x helm
2x astrog
1x Med
1xGO
1xCO
2xEO
1xEM
1xGM
3xSK

Note: military grade sensors and commo. Maxed range and speed. She commands from the rear, but close enough to see... and far enough to escape.

Power plant not optimized down, 8 EP available for weapons.

This beast is cramped, crowded, and busy. But she's also small enough to be missed, looks much like a Type S, and can haul seriously fast.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

It seems some of you are talking right past each other. Bill's critique isn't with the idea of these ships for nobles - it's with the idea of an Archduke zipping about in one. An Archduke has multiple Dukes under him, IIRC. An Archduke would need a naval vessel, even if it didn't actually belong to any navy.

 

[graden1]

Bill;

Laugh all you want, on my ignore list. Just because you know more about Traveller (or any other subject) than someone else, doesn't give you the right to act so *&^%$#@! condescending.

To the rest of the board;

I admit it already. I MADE A MISTAKE!!! It was a careless remark which could have been avoided with a bit of research. My apologies. And many thanks for all your help on this topic; I really appreciate it.

XO

 

[Hal]

If it makes you feel any better? We all have our moments when we use language that might not exactly have been tactful. Bill is, to my way of thinking, a pretty good stand up kinda guy. I'm not going to make excuses for him either way, as I don't know what is/was going through his mind, but he has always treated ME well.

What I will say however, is this:

I've been burned in the past by individuals whose behavior could have been more tactful. One group of individuals grew so odious in my mind, that I cancelled my subscription to JTAS, and gave the remainder of my time away for free to the first gent who asked for it. Ultimately, I found, it wasn't worth being angry all the time with a bunch of people who, for the most part, did very little to earn my respect - and for those who did earn my respect, seemed unaware or perhaps uncaring that they were losing my respect.

The point I'm making here is that while sometimes you're going to make mistakes with the research aspect of 20+ years worth of material for Traveller, some people are going to make the mistake of trodding on your toes from time to time. For what it is worth, take a deep breath, and say "I'm a Happy guy. If I can't be happy, I'm gonna MAKE myself happy and ignore the lot of them until I am happy"

That's how it works for me anyhow. I've never looked back on my decision to drop my subscription to JTAS. If people learned from that experience, all the better. If they didn't? They never will. As for me? I could die tomorrow and it would impact not one iota on anyone here (except perhaps those I've met personally). When you take that perspective on life, you begin to appreciate being able to achieve your own inner peace

 

[graden1]

Hal;

As a group, this forum is one of the best I've seen on the web. Never an unkind word from anyone, until this week. But no, I'm not letting it get me down. One guy dumping on me vs. everyone else making helpful comments adds up to a good thing, on the balance. The signal to noise ratio is far higher than most forums, IMHO. I wouldn't think of cancelling my membership over a little problem like this.

Thanks for your advice, and support,

XO

 

[Whipsnade]

XO,

The ignore list? Well, perhaps I misinterpreted the tone of your posts and perhaps I didn't.

Reviewing the in-thread topic, it began with your typing 'And that 400 ton model looks like just the thing for the Archduke...'. My friend Fly - who is a bigger naval crank than I am if that is possible - suggested that a fleet command vessel would be a better choice.

In response, you somewhat agreed with Fly; thus exhibiting an awareness of fleet command vessels that you later disavowed to me, and added the proviso that it could sometimes be politically unwise for an archduke to use the tools that come with his job.

I then jumped in, stupidly in retrospect. I pointed out just what an archduke's job entailed and suggested it would politically unwise for an archduke to cut himself out the command loop by travelling in such a tiny vessel. I pointed out that an archduke's fleet command vessel would not strictly be a naval asset that must be commandeered, that it would be one of the tools given him to do his job. I also made a mistake by quoting the original 200 dTon figure.

You responded by calling me patronizing, you rightly corrected my 200 dTon mistake, and you backpeddling even further from your original statement regarding the 400 dTon design and suggesting that it be used as a 'personal' vessel only.

You then wrote something I found rather odd. You asked me what a fleet command vessel was, even though you had earlier agreed with Fly that a fleet command vessel would fit an archduke's needs nicely. Why did you know enough about the concept of a fleet command vessel when writing to Fly and plead ignorance about the very same concept when writing to me? I was puzzled, so I read your profile and found what I thought was the answer.

You list as one of your interests sarcasm.

After reading that tidbit, I felt I had a better handle on the rest of your post.

After pleading ignorance with regards to the fleet command vessel concept, you asked why an archduke wouldn't provide one out of his own resources; i.e. huscarles. You asked this AFTER I had previously described a fleet command vessel as one of the tools an archduke is given with which to do his job. Earlier, I would have viewed that question as odd. Now knowing your interests, I believed it to be sarcasm.

Your next question was even worse. Whenever people are discussing Traveller, someone invariably brings up the old 'Is it written somewhere in canon?' trope as an easy way to avoid debating an idea's merits. You did so and did so sarcastically. Let me quote your exact sentence:

I'd like to know what Traveller products (if any) this information is published in, so I can get the "official" story.

Please note the nice 'if any' dig in parantheses. Placing quotes around the word official was a delightful touch too.

The sentence reads as follows; Instead of debating the merit of the idea, you'll wait to see if there is 'official' (if any) information about fleet command vessels in Traveller.

And I'm patronizing?

You can see why my next post read as it did. In my view, I'm dealing with a self described sarcastic who is pleading ignorance about a concept he earlier acknowleged familiarity with, who is asking questions about an idea that have already been answered, and who is taking the 'No Shoe Salesmen In Canon' cop out with regards to even discussing the idea.

I'll admit one thing. I was stupid for even bothering to answer your post of July 10th.


Have fun with your yacht designs,
Bill

 

[graden1]

Gee, Bill, get confused much?

Yes, you completely misunderstood my post. I asked you for more information about the fleet command vessel concept, since your post seemed to indicate you knew something about it. I wasn't being sarcastic then, and I'm not now.

In particular, I asked if there were any Traveller canon references to fleet command vessels, because I would have liked to have seen a published description or ship design. If there aren't any, you could have simply said, "Not that I know of." Instead you chose to make the ridiculous accusation that I was trying to say they didn't exist! I never said any such thing. Actually, as you pointed out, I agreed, as soon as it was pointed out, that this idea made sense.

But don't worry about it--I won't be making the mistake of asking you for information about anything in the future, not if I'm going to be subject to your superior attitude and baseless accusations.


Now, I've got to get busy. When I told my players I'd been mistaken all these years, and there are actually Shoe Salesmen in Traveller, two of them decided they wanted to create new Shoe Salesmen characters right away, so I've got to create a new character class. The third player is a Virushi Archduke who's always been a wee bit claustrophobic in his 200 dton yacht, so he's getting a shiny new 3,000,000 dton fleet command dreadnought just as soon as I finish the deckplans. I knew you were smart, BC, but I gotta say, your posts might just have saved my whole friggin' Traveller campaign!!!

THAT, my friend, is sarcasm.

XO