Yacht: Jump-1 or Jump-4 ?
- Thread starter graden1
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yep, T20. That was XO's original specification for design system back on page one. In T20 you start with the rough configurations that are pretty close to HG specs and then can upgrade the streamlining on most of them in steps for extra cost and avionics, and in the case of airframes extra volume as well.
Re: A few points. IMHO and IMTU all of course.
1. There is absolutely no conceivable reason why an Archduke should be any more "cut off from the chain of command" in a 400-ton-vessel than he would be in a 100000-ton-vessel. At TL 15, one can easily fit a state-of the art computer, accomodations for the Archduke's closest staff and J-4, 4G performance into such a vessel.
2. The "hot air balloon" or "golf cart" analogies, as well as the general comparison to the President nowadays don't work. A hot air balloon or a golf cart do not fulfill the requirements that Air Force One or a presidential limousine do. A small vessel, as mentioned above, can fulfill these, although I would see a 1000+ ton vessel at this level.
3. Only very rarely will an Archduke actually accompany fleets to the front lines. His role is at the *Domain* level, and he certainly isn't going to command anything at this level if he hops around at the front lines. His place is in a secure, accertained headquarters behind the lines which serves as a communications hub. This is Traveller, not our world where communications to any place of the world take minutes. The Archduke will by nature have to limit himself to strategical directions and leave the actual fighting to others. There is no other way.
4. If an Archduke should find it absolutely necessary to *directly* accompany naval assets into battle, he should use a naval ship. Carrying a full-fledged naval battleship around as a yacht in peace time would be a waste of resources.
As a side note, I just had to think of the last Hornblower novel, where he is CiC in the West Indies. Anybody remember the scene where he is paying a visit to New Orleans in a small cutter and the ambassador is dismayed because it's just such a small, unimpressive vessel?
It nevertheless fit the purpose. And I guess a yacht will fit the purpose if it
a) Gets the noble where he wants and when he wants.
b) Is comfortable enough for his needs.
c) Accomodates staff and possibly family members.
d) Enables the noble to continue his work while aboard.
e) Is representative.
Regards,
Tobias
1. There is absolutely no conceivable reason why an Archduke should be any more "cut off from the chain of command" in a 400-ton-vessel than he would be in a 100000-ton-vessel. At TL 15, one can easily fit a state-of the art computer, accomodations for the Archduke's closest staff and J-4, 4G performance into such a vessel.
2. The "hot air balloon" or "golf cart" analogies, as well as the general comparison to the President nowadays don't work. A hot air balloon or a golf cart do not fulfill the requirements that Air Force One or a presidential limousine do. A small vessel, as mentioned above, can fulfill these, although I would see a 1000+ ton vessel at this level.
3. Only very rarely will an Archduke actually accompany fleets to the front lines. His role is at the *Domain* level, and he certainly isn't going to command anything at this level if he hops around at the front lines. His place is in a secure, accertained headquarters behind the lines which serves as a communications hub. This is Traveller, not our world where communications to any place of the world take minutes. The Archduke will by nature have to limit himself to strategical directions and leave the actual fighting to others. There is no other way.
4. If an Archduke should find it absolutely necessary to *directly* accompany naval assets into battle, he should use a naval ship. Carrying a full-fledged naval battleship around as a yacht in peace time would be a waste of resources.
As a side note, I just had to think of the last Hornblower novel, where he is CiC in the West Indies. Anybody remember the scene where he is paying a visit to New Orleans in a small cutter and the ambassador is dismayed because it's just such a small, unimpressive vessel?
It nevertheless fit the purpose. And I guess a yacht will fit the purpose if it
a) Gets the noble where he wants and when he wants.
b) Is comfortable enough for his needs.
c) Accomodates staff and possibly family members.
d) Enables the noble to continue his work while aboard.
e) Is representative.
Regards,
Tobias
Tobias,
A few counterpoints, IMHO and IMTU naturally:
First, my previous comments dealt with archdukes responsible for domains and not lesser nobles responsible for clusters of worlds, worlds, or pieces of worlds. This post will do the same. Keep that distinction in mind.
No one is suggesting a 100K vessel either. Count the staterrom aboard the 400-tonner and do the math. Aside from the crew, just how much of the 'closest staff' can fit aboard. Will an archduke occasionally travel aboard a 400-tonner? Yes, in emergencies and after much preparation on both ends. Will a 400-tonner be an archduke's primary vessel as suggestred by XO before he began backpeddling? Hell no.
Do you seriously believe POTUS travels around outside DC in only a limo? I take it you've never seen the POTUS entourage then. They begin arriving days or weeks before POTUS shows up. There's even a presidential medical team that takes over portions of various hospitals along his route. Even with near instantaneous comms here on Earth and very rapid transport, POTUS must be within hands reach of the vital parts of his government at all times.
The people, advisors, and equipment that still travel with POTUS are mind-boggling despite the benefits of sat phones and jet aircraft that can link him with anyone on the planet, both communications and transportation luxuries that are impossible for an archduke to enjoy across his domain.
When an archduke moves away from his capital, he's got to take an important slice of his thousands of worlds domain government with him. A 1000 dTon vessel may do it in a pinch, but a flotilla is more like it. POTUS travels as part of a huge entourage too, even when visiting schools a few hours beyond his capital.
While 1000dTons is too small and only one vessel is silly, you see the need for a vessel larger than 400 dTons too.
Who said he would?
Again, who said he would?
Really? You mean communications only travel as fast as ships can? I never knew that about Traveller. I always thought you could dial someone up on subspace radio or something.
Just like the soon-to-be-archduke Norris during the 5th Frontier War right? It's a shame none of us realized that until now.
Who said he uses a battleship? Point out the post 'cause I can't find it. While you're at it, point out the post with the 100K dTon number too.
Read the novel again and pay attention to the context.
Hornblower is CinC in the 1820s (Napoleon dies during his tour there) and finds himself commanding a laughably puny squadron when compared to those during the Napoleonic Wars. Despite finally making admiral, Hornblower frets over his squadron's size because it's too small to do all the jobs tasked to it.
His largest ships are two frigates, there no SOLs to be had for the West Indies station at all. The rest of his force is made up of sloops and smaller vessels because his squadron's primary duties are commerce protection and smuggling suppression. He visits New Orleans in a cutter because his larger vessels are urgently needed elsewhere. Even so, he scandalizes his command by doing so. They feel he should use one of the frigates even if they are needed somewhere else.
You'll also notice that when he has no other choice; such as when he needs to chase down the English millionaire running guns to Spanish rebels, he travels aboard one of the frigates because he needs the amount of force his largest ships can project.
Yes, the cutter fits Hornblower's purpose because there are no other ships to be had. Are you seriously comparing the miniscule assets available to the 1820s RN in the West Indies to the assets available to a man who rules more than one thousand worlds?
C and D are the kickers. Without FTL comms, an archduke must travel about with an appreciable portion of his government. Look at what POTUS travels with, factor in no instant comms and then multiply by the number of worlds involved. Do you still think that can be crammed aboard a 400dTon or 1000dTon vessel?
YMMV.
Have fun,
Bill
About 10. On a 1000-ton vessel with very good performance you can easily accomodate 20-30. If you actually make passengers a priority, you can double this with no problems.
You totally missed the point, namely the irrelevance of your "golf cart" and "hot air balloon" comparisons.
Well, the number of people accompanying our chief of government on a foreign visit - for example - is not exactly "mind-boggling".
Again, government does not at all work like it does now. If you want to compare things, the travelling Kings of 11th-century Germany would be a more fitting comparison than the current-day US head of state.
What would you need a "Fleet command vessel" for if you never command fleets?
You brought, as an explicit example, a purely military command vessel. Which is absolutely unnecessary unless you accompany a military fleet.
a) Your previous comparisons all assumed 21th-century Earth conditions.
b) It's exactly the attitude displayed in your above reply that makes discussion with you a less than pleasant experience. If you do intend to go on like this, do not bother.
You mentioned "fleet command vessels". What should that actually be in your imagination? A tiny 5000-ton eggshell "commanding" a fleet of Battleships? I don't think so.
I could now insert a snarky comment how I remember the novel very well (btw you misremembered some things).
No, because an Archduke "governs" in a fundamentally different way from a current-day leader.
Regards,
Tobias
To explain the Traveller core technologies a bit, for the unaware.
CT Bk 0 -3 do not mention the lack of FTL comms explicitly, however, it is implied in Bk3 by the lack of anything new past Television. (Modern networking theory was developing at that point historically, but the hardware was not in place. The internet has been possible since the mid 1960's...and in place since the 1970's)
Bk 6, scouts, mentions the two subdivisions of the Comm Office: X-boat and Courier. If there was some form of HSC, there would be a corresponding office.
Later editions explicitly state nothing moves FTL except by jumping aboard a starship.
This forces leadership in to a different light.
A regional leader rules not by direct command, but by assigning key local leaders to see to it things are done as the regional leader wishes/demands/needs.
An Archduke's tenuous naval command is executed through a variety of channels, not the least of which is cashiering captains and admirals who disobey directives he's issued. He might send a trusted lieutenant to be "Political Liaison" and tell some Admiral what the Duke's wishes would be. If the LT doesn't come back, or reports that the admiral is a complete wanker, said admiral is going to be planning birthday parties at the NCO club for a living.
More touchy is the Subodinate nobles... they are made by and answer to the Emperor, not the local leader. The intervening layers are supposedly also the emperor's men. Don't count on it, tho.
They must avoid doing things that will make the emperor mad, as well as avoid the various levels of intervening nobles. (Counts, Dukes, Archdukes)
The Archduke could, for example, issue orders to the Imperial Fleet. The admiralty could ignore them, if they felt the EMPEROR would disagree... at which point the Admirals get cashiered, pending appeal, and the emperor's answer is demanded. One, some, or all of the involved may lose their jobs, titles, and such...
Worse still, since there is no FTLComm, except jump craft, there is wonderously long lags of knowledge.If you're 2 jumps away from your liege, anything which needs to be dealt with in less than 4.5 weeks must be done locally, and approval retroactively given.
CT Bk 0 -3 do not mention the lack of FTL comms explicitly, however, it is implied in Bk3 by the lack of anything new past Television. (Modern networking theory was developing at that point historically, but the hardware was not in place. The internet has been possible since the mid 1960's...and in place since the 1970's)
Bk 6, scouts, mentions the two subdivisions of the Comm Office: X-boat and Courier. If there was some form of HSC, there would be a corresponding office.
Later editions explicitly state nothing moves FTL except by jumping aboard a starship.
This forces leadership in to a different light.
A regional leader rules not by direct command, but by assigning key local leaders to see to it things are done as the regional leader wishes/demands/needs.
An Archduke's tenuous naval command is executed through a variety of channels, not the least of which is cashiering captains and admirals who disobey directives he's issued. He might send a trusted lieutenant to be "Political Liaison" and tell some Admiral what the Duke's wishes would be. If the LT doesn't come back, or reports that the admiral is a complete wanker, said admiral is going to be planning birthday parties at the NCO club for a living.
More touchy is the Subodinate nobles... they are made by and answer to the Emperor, not the local leader. The intervening layers are supposedly also the emperor's men. Don't count on it, tho.
They must avoid doing things that will make the emperor mad, as well as avoid the various levels of intervening nobles. (Counts, Dukes, Archdukes)
The Archduke could, for example, issue orders to the Imperial Fleet. The admiralty could ignore them, if they felt the EMPEROR would disagree... at which point the Admirals get cashiered, pending appeal, and the emperor's answer is demanded. One, some, or all of the involved may lose their jobs, titles, and such...
Worse still, since there is no FTLComm, except jump craft, there is wonderously long lags of knowledge.If you're 2 jumps away from your liege, anything which needs to be dealt with in less than 4.5 weeks must be done locally, and approval retroactively given.
Gents,
Somehow this thread got under my skin like few others ever have. My apologies all around for being boorish earlier.
Now back to the topic at hand...
I didn't choose POTUS as an analogy because I'm some chest beating redneck or because I love the idiot currently holding the office. I chose POTUS as an example because he is currently - for good or ill - the most powerful government figure on the planet.
And even then, POTUS' power and responsibilities are a hiccup in a hurricane when compared to those of an archduke.
Yes, the Imperium is a minimalist government when compared to those we live under but when you factor in the size of a domain, things add up. There are six domains; Deneb, Vland, Ilelish, Sol, Sylea, and Gateway, that roughly split 11,000 systems among them. Call it 1500 each. No matter how minimal Imperial governance is, 1500 systems adds up. An archduke has a lot of work on his hands.
Similar underlying philosophies? Yes. Similar nut and bolts? Of course not.
We both agree that an archduke would rarely, if ever, command from the 'front'. He also cannot direct operations from too far in the rear lest his orders so far out date as to be useless (q.v. the 4th Frontier War). So, he must split the difference somehow and set up shop close to the front while being distant enough to be protected from the front. Because he can't count on command facilities to be present in each and every system the course of a campaign requires him to be in, he must bring his command facilities with him.
There are only six archdukes in the whole of the Imperium. (Only four, if you throw out the Emperor who is Archduke of Sylea and Norris is promotes himself in the OTL.) Men of that standing in imperial governance will continually be at the center of a complex web of communications, advisors, and supplicants. When they move - and they must occasionally - they will need take thoser critical portions of their governments with them. They will also need to ensure constant, secure communications with those parts of their government they are forced to leave behind.
Have fun,
Bill
P.S. If you really want to know what kind of ship an archduke routinely travels aboard, check out just what sort of ship Dulinor arrived at Sylea aboard in both MT and G:T. In both the OTL and ATL, Dulinor's arrival at the Capital in a large, jump6 cruiser illicted no comments. The use of a cruiser in this role didn't seem odd to any observers, it was simply normal. It was only after Dulinor shot Strephon or died in a gig explosion that people began to question things and then they still didn't question the use of the cruiser.
Somehow this thread got under my skin like few others ever have. My apologies all around for being boorish earlier.
Now back to the topic at hand...
No offense, but your head of state doesn't have ICBMs, SSBNs, and a nuclear armed SAC at his command. Niether does he have military forces - for good or ill - scattered around the globe. The German head of state's responsibilities are nothing when compared to POTUS' responsibilities.
I didn't choose POTUS as an analogy because I'm some chest beating redneck or because I love the idiot currently holding the office. I chose POTUS as an example because he is currently - for good or ill - the most powerful government figure on the planet.
And even then, POTUS' power and responsibilities are a hiccup in a hurricane when compared to those of an archduke.
Tobias, you're preaching to the choir here. I'm the guy who has been harping on 'territorial supremacy' versus 'territorial sovereignty' for over six years now remember? I'm the guy who constantly tells people that the Imperium does not run like a 21st Century, liberal, Western, democracy too.
Yes, the Imperium is a minimalist government when compared to those we live under but when you factor in the size of a domain, things add up. There are six domains; Deneb, Vland, Ilelish, Sol, Sylea, and Gateway, that roughly split 11,000 systems among them. Call it 1500 each. No matter how minimal Imperial governance is, 1500 systems adds up. An archduke has a lot of work on his hands.
No, it would not. People continually equate 'feudal' with 'medieval'. The two are not the same just as the democracies of classical Greece are not the same as the democracies of the 21st West. Periclean Athens and current day Germany may have governments based on similar philosophies but they are not the same thing. So to, neither are the 57th Century Imperium and 11th Century Germany.
Similar underlying philosophies? Yes. Similar nut and bolts? Of course not.
You misunderstood my example. Did you google USS Mount Whitney? She is about as far from a warship as you can get. Minimal defensive weaponry, no armor to speak of, but oodles and oodles of comm and small craft. She does not operate within a battlefleet. She sits in a harbor and provides a commander with the means to control his forces within a theatre of operations. She's a mobile command post, she's not a warship, and she's exactly what an archduke needs.
We both agree that an archduke would rarely, if ever, command from the 'front'. He also cannot direct operations from too far in the rear lest his orders so far out date as to be useless (q.v. the 4th Frontier War). So, he must split the difference somehow and set up shop close to the front while being distant enough to be protected from the front. Because he can't count on command facilities to be present in each and every system the course of a campaign requires him to be in, he must bring his command facilities with him.
My previous comparisons focussed on powerful government figures; POTUS versus archduke, and the means that they must employ to stay in touch with their governmental structures. My comparisons also alway added the proviso that POTUS and his huge entourage enjoyed instantaneous comms and rapid travel, luxuries that an archduke could not enjoy. The point I tried and failed to make was that, even with instant comms and rapid travel, POTUS required a huge entourage because of the power he controlled and so an archduke, who controlled much more power and could not count on instant comms and rapid travel, would require an even larger entourage.
Point taken. And if you intend on instructing me on the basic conditions of a setting which I've played since the Carter Administration, don't bother either.
Google USS Mount Whitney.
Go right ahead. Hornblower, not being a governing figure, is not pertinant to the discussion. You brought him up as an example of powerful figures travelling in tiny ships. I supplied the context in which he did so, the precise details do not matter. I have the entire series sitting on my shelves hardbound, inlcuding editions of the first three books printed in the late 30s. We could get into a p*ssing match over Hornblower canon or we could discuss the topic at hand. Answer me this; Why did Hornblower travel to New Orleans aboard the cutter? Was it because his few other, larger ships needed more elsewhere? Yes or no? Next, in what concievable situation would an archduke in control of 1500 worlds find himself limited to a small selection of ships like Hornblower was?
Again, you're preaching to the choir. That's been my refrain for over six years now. The Imperium does govern itself far differently from current day nations. However, 1500 worlds ADD UP. No matter how little the Imperium does, doing it 1500 times ADDS UP.
There are only six archdukes in the whole of the Imperium. (Only four, if you throw out the Emperor who is Archduke of Sylea and Norris is promotes himself in the OTL.) Men of that standing in imperial governance will continually be at the center of a complex web of communications, advisors, and supplicants. When they move - and they must occasionally - they will need take thoser critical portions of their governments with them. They will also need to ensure constant, secure communications with those parts of their government they are forced to leave behind.
Have fun,
Bill
P.S. If you really want to know what kind of ship an archduke routinely travels aboard, check out just what sort of ship Dulinor arrived at Sylea aboard in both MT and G:T. In both the OTL and ATL, Dulinor's arrival at the Capital in a large, jump6 cruiser illicted no comments. The use of a cruiser in this role didn't seem odd to any observers, it was simply normal. It was only after Dulinor shot Strephon or died in a gig explosion that people began to question things and then they still didn't question the use of the cruiser.
Actually, in effect, he does have nuclear weapons at his disposal. Well, he did until fairly recently in any event, not sure whether he has now.
When comparing to other world leaders, including those with 3rd-World-War-starting capabilities, the US President's entourage is extreme.
Actually, he does. On a much smaller scale, though.
But this dances around the point: An Archduke cannot make decisions in the same way as a current-day country leader. Especially not when travelling between star systems. In Jumpspace there will be no "information at his fingertips" nor will he be able to make any educated decisions, no matter if he brings along 10 or 1000 staff members. And for the relatively short time he spends in real space, a smaller staff can do. The President doesn't carry around hundreds of advisors in Air Force One either. Space to travel and work for some 50 people IIRC.
Yes, but as I said, even among leaders with similar world-shattering-powers, this is an extreme example.
In a sense, yes. In another sense, no. An Archduke's ability to directly affect his domain is fairly limited (IMTU at least). He delegates most decisions, even crucial ones.
No arguing that he does have a lot of work. And he certainly has a vast staff to assist him. But he cannot effectively govern while travelling.
I should have added an "even". Of course, neither are appropriate comparisons, but even said Kings are more fitting than current-day earth. I chose the example for a reason, though, because several things that are relevant for Domain rule are there , like building a thrustworthy entourage and placing them in key position, governing through multiple parallel channels etc., in this particular type of medieval rule.
Yes, I googled. The site has pictures of her operating with a ship I used to serve aboard.
She is not a "fighting ship", that is correct. But neither are ELINT vessels, amphibious transports, replenishment vessels. But she is a military command vessel - which can double as a troop transport, evacuation or hospital ship.
She is used by military commanders. I see no use for her for the political overall commander.
What for? You cannot direct a fleet even one parsec away. And even if an Archduke would use one, he would simply embark on a command vessel that was already there, like a political leader would do nowadays.
In my view, he cannot "command" in the normal sense of the word at all. Like in the age of sail, but even more extreme, such "command" will be limited to issuing directives before the fleet deploys, and then leaving everything to the initiative of the commander on the spot.
Yes, but this doesn't work. You cannot stay in touch with your government while travelling between stars. Currently, you can stay in touch while travelling by air or sea.
See, and I say: He requires an entourage because of instant comms and rapid travel.
I did. She's neither tiny, nor an eggshell.
Even a 100000-ton-ship is but a moderately sized ship compared to the mainstay fleet units of the Imperial Navy.
I just supplied an anecdote on how even small ships can suffice when you don't take representation into account. If you were to use the novel as an exact comparison, you would have to use the governor as a counterpart to an Archduke, who naturally didn't travel around the Caribbean at all.
They can't in my opinion. When an Archduke travels, he will simply have to delegate power to someone else (a duke, I presume). Every interstellar voyage, no matter how many people you take with you, involves being completely cut off from the rest of the universe for at least 50% of your travel time, without regarding all the other implications.
An Archduke should leave his captial very, very rarely. And if he does, he should leave behind people who can make most decisions in his place.
And do you think this cruiser was his personal *yacht* or a Navy vessel which filled this role?
Regards,
Tobias
ChaserCaffey
SOC-12
Some thoughts of my own, if you don't mind an interjection.
It's obvious that an Archduke is not going to be in constant contact with the area he's governing, in contrast to a modern world leader. As has been pointed out on this thread, this is balanced by the fact that an Archduke governs much more loosely than a contemporary leader. Nonetheless, he does have to generate general policy of all stripes for a domain of (as Bill estimated) about 1500 inhabited systems, which probably creates a fair amount of paperwork. We can also infer that the Archduke has a fairly large social responsibility (holding court), although he could also meet this responsibility by traveling to important events. And all of this is in addition to some sort of supreme command role if his domain comes under attack. Anyone want the job?
So, our Archduke is going to be travelling primarily for three reasons- he's sticking close (but not too close) to the front during some kind of military emergency, he's demonstrating how important a particular ship launching/university opening/local crisis/ennoblement is to the Imperium as a whole, or (unlucky sod) he's been called to Capital to talk to Big Boss Alkhalakoi about something. Either of these three possibilities means that he's likely to be aboard that ship for a substantial period of time- I can easily see it taking months to cross a Domain, and going to Capital would be an even longer journey.
The thing is, the Archduke would have to keep generating domain-level policy while on his voyage, and getting it out to the people who need to know about it. On long voyages, he might also have to keep up with social responsibilities as well. So, I think that on balance we're looking at:
- A fairly large ship, perhaps in the 25k-60k dTon range.
- High Jump number, so as to make voyages as short as possible.
- A fairly large number of luxury suites and stewards, to let the Archduke move his "court" and keep up whatever functions he feels are needed during the journey.
- An equally large space for statsticians, lawyers, policy wonks, military attaches, economists, and expert-type people of sundry and various stripes, to assist His Grace in formulating policy while he's zipping along the stars. Sure, the information they have might be a bit out of date, but the kind of policy an Archduke usually comes up with shouldn't need up-to-the-minute (or even up-to-the-week) information, except in wartime.
- Docking bays for a large number of Xboats and/or Scout-Couriers to take the policy generated by His Grace while aboard ship and get it to whoever needs to know about it. If the ship enters a system that's on the Xboat network, it can dump a mail batch into the system and let it go from there, but for times when that's not possible the ship should be able to generate its own messages.
- Self-defense armament, such as nuclear dampers, a meson screen, and decent armor and/or self-defense lasers for tagging missiles. Any actual hostile starships should be taken care of by the ship's escorts- and regardless of where nobles fall in the Navy chain of command, I think it's likely that the Navy will "just happen" to have a heavy cruiser squadron going the noble's way. There are only four Archdukes, after all, and I wouldn't like to be the Sector Admiral who gets to explain how you let one of them get fried by raiders.
Thoughts?
Edit: as to where the ship comes from- perhaps an Archduke could afford to do what John Wayne couldn't in the long run, and refit an old cruiser for his needs? Failing that, I'm sure that he could afford to have one custom-built for him- he does have an income of several billion credits, as I recall.
It's obvious that an Archduke is not going to be in constant contact with the area he's governing, in contrast to a modern world leader. As has been pointed out on this thread, this is balanced by the fact that an Archduke governs much more loosely than a contemporary leader. Nonetheless, he does have to generate general policy of all stripes for a domain of (as Bill estimated) about 1500 inhabited systems, which probably creates a fair amount of paperwork. We can also infer that the Archduke has a fairly large social responsibility (holding court), although he could also meet this responsibility by traveling to important events. And all of this is in addition to some sort of supreme command role if his domain comes under attack. Anyone want the job?
So, our Archduke is going to be travelling primarily for three reasons- he's sticking close (but not too close) to the front during some kind of military emergency, he's demonstrating how important a particular ship launching/university opening/local crisis/ennoblement is to the Imperium as a whole, or (unlucky sod) he's been called to Capital to talk to Big Boss Alkhalakoi about something. Either of these three possibilities means that he's likely to be aboard that ship for a substantial period of time- I can easily see it taking months to cross a Domain, and going to Capital would be an even longer journey.
The thing is, the Archduke would have to keep generating domain-level policy while on his voyage, and getting it out to the people who need to know about it. On long voyages, he might also have to keep up with social responsibilities as well. So, I think that on balance we're looking at:
- A fairly large ship, perhaps in the 25k-60k dTon range.
- High Jump number, so as to make voyages as short as possible.
- A fairly large number of luxury suites and stewards, to let the Archduke move his "court" and keep up whatever functions he feels are needed during the journey.
- An equally large space for statsticians, lawyers, policy wonks, military attaches, economists, and expert-type people of sundry and various stripes, to assist His Grace in formulating policy while he's zipping along the stars. Sure, the information they have might be a bit out of date, but the kind of policy an Archduke usually comes up with shouldn't need up-to-the-minute (or even up-to-the-week) information, except in wartime.
- Docking bays for a large number of Xboats and/or Scout-Couriers to take the policy generated by His Grace while aboard ship and get it to whoever needs to know about it. If the ship enters a system that's on the Xboat network, it can dump a mail batch into the system and let it go from there, but for times when that's not possible the ship should be able to generate its own messages.
- Self-defense armament, such as nuclear dampers, a meson screen, and decent armor and/or self-defense lasers for tagging missiles. Any actual hostile starships should be taken care of by the ship's escorts- and regardless of where nobles fall in the Navy chain of command, I think it's likely that the Navy will "just happen" to have a heavy cruiser squadron going the noble's way. There are only four Archdukes, after all, and I wouldn't like to be the Sector Admiral who gets to explain how you let one of them get fried by raiders.
Thoughts?
Edit: as to where the ship comes from- perhaps an Archduke could afford to do what John Wayne couldn't in the long run, and refit an old cruiser for his needs? Failing that, I'm sure that he could afford to have one custom-built for him- he does have an income of several billion credits, as I recall.
See, this is what I see differently.
Note that this is pretty much a hypothetical situation anyway. There are, in pre-Rebellion times, only two Domains where a military emergency at the Domain level is even possible - and one of those didn't even have an Archduke.
Almost all space travel (which is very little in my opinion) by the Archduke will be representative, social or official, corresponding to the opportunities you laid out below.
My thinking is: He can't, or it will at least be very impractical to do so. This is especially true if he travels to Capital. Since an Archduke delegates power - of a high degree - the whole time, it would make IMHO much more sense for him to go this route in such a case as well, instead of creating an extremely awkward government-from-afar-apparatus.
Of course, an Archduke will use different vessels in different situations, but for his personal yacht, I don't see a multi-kiloton-cruiser. This of course depends on the Archduke's personal preference as well. Some make think that size does matter. Others might prefer a sleek, small ship.
Regards,
Tobias
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I would never assume that an ArchDuke, or even a Duke couldn't purchase a Cruiser out of the Privy Purse. The question is why they would want to. If they need a FLag Bridge then they get a Cruiser or Drednaught to carry their flag. But to go launch a ship, to go to a ball, to play host to a bunch of lesser nobles. the needs aren't as great for a Warship.
I would think that, aside from the required trips to Capital, to sit in on the Moot. (Are you really going to delegate that one for important decisions?) The High Nobility would actually have to spend quite a bit of their time travelling. Since you can't pick up the phone and call your Dukes, Counts, Marquis or Barons, you are going to have to send a representative, or for special occasions, or to show great favor or displeasure you are going to have to go yourself. ArchDuke Nells wasn't demoted by representative, nor was Archduke Erechs appointed by a representative. The Emperor went to Gateway Domain to deal with the situation. The Emperor Travels, the lesser Nobility would also be expected to travel. You leave your Beauracracy behind and let them stay in touch with the rest of the domain. RUn day to day affairs, etc, according to your Standing Operating Proceedures. While you go and see the Domain, the people, (well the important ones anyway) and make informed decisions from the location of the people. More like an old West Circuit Judge than the President of The United States. the Government will pretty much run itself, especially with a good and trusted cabinet. Not saying there wouldn't be Couriers waiting at destinations requesting decisions. Or Decisions that have to be sent back to the Domain Seat. But because there are 1500 Systems in a Domain, there are on average 48 Subsector Dukes in a Domain. You will be spending more time on the road than sitting at home.
I would think that, aside from the required trips to Capital, to sit in on the Moot. (Are you really going to delegate that one for important decisions?) The High Nobility would actually have to spend quite a bit of their time travelling. Since you can't pick up the phone and call your Dukes, Counts, Marquis or Barons, you are going to have to send a representative, or for special occasions, or to show great favor or displeasure you are going to have to go yourself. ArchDuke Nells wasn't demoted by representative, nor was Archduke Erechs appointed by a representative. The Emperor went to Gateway Domain to deal with the situation. The Emperor Travels, the lesser Nobility would also be expected to travel. You leave your Beauracracy behind and let them stay in touch with the rest of the domain. RUn day to day affairs, etc, according to your Standing Operating Proceedures. While you go and see the Domain, the people, (well the important ones anyway) and make informed decisions from the location of the people. More like an old West Circuit Judge than the President of The United States. the Government will pretty much run itself, especially with a good and trusted cabinet. Not saying there wouldn't be Couriers waiting at destinations requesting decisions. Or Decisions that have to be sent back to the Domain Seat. But because there are 1500 Systems in a Domain, there are on average 48 Subsector Dukes in a Domain. You will be spending more time on the road than sitting at home.
Total agreement here.
Yes, but this is for extraordinary situations. I don't think the Archduke is going to personally invest all the subsector dukes. Even if so, it can be expected, that the designated successor travels to him in most cases, not vice versa. Travelling to a subsector on the border will take months each time, and most of that time will be spent out of reach in jumpspace.
Yes, absolutely my view as well.
I know you didn't write it, but as a side note: An Archduke will never be able to travel all the systems in his domain. Not even 10% I assume. Travelling 1500 systems, even just hopping in, saying hello, and zooming off again, will take ~30 years of time, 2/3 of which are spent in jumpspace.
Practical aspects aside, these are nobles, not robots (nor PCs... my players needed to be prodded with -DMs to awareness-depended tasks and with brewing mutiny to spend any time planetside).
Regards,
Tobias
ChaserCaffey
SOC-12
Conceded. We could argue for a good long time over whether it's *possible* for an Archduke to have some kind of command role, but I think it's reasonable to stipulate that it would be rare enough to be ignored for the purposes of the discussion.
I think that the difference in our thinking is caused by an assumption I made when laying out the specifications for my Archduke-mobile, but (on review of my post) neglected to explicitly state. Specifically, I assumed that the Archduke will be moving about most of the time- even if he doesn't personally invest every sector/subsector duke, which I agree is just not feasible, there will be enough things of sufficient importance to the Domain/Imperium at any given time that the Archduke's personal presence will be required in order to handle them. As a previous poster pointed out, the Emperor travels, and it is reasonable to assume that those of his vassals who are stewards of large portions of space will be expected to do so as well. Feudal systems are based on personal relationships of fealty, so a personal presence is required for important events. (Sorry if that sounds pedantic- it is important to my point, I promise) Note that this doesn't include trips to Capital, which Archdukes will probably be required to make from time to time when something especially important is being discussed in the Moot that they just can't leave to a representative.
With all of the above in mind (whew!), I therefore assumed that since the Archduke will be travelling most of the time, he will have to have enough staff aboard his ship to handle the policy decisions that he does make and do a fair amount of entertaining, either in jumps-space or when he enters a system. In other words, since his office obligates him to spend a lot of his time in jump-space, it's necessary for him to carry around the information and staff he would need to make use of that time formulating Domain-level policy, coming up with decisions on matters brought to him by courier, and so on. From there, it's reasonable to assume that a certain number of courier ships would be carried, in order to convey the Archduke's decisions to whoever needed them.
To use Bhoin's example: the Domain will indeed run according to SOP most of the time, in the Archduke's absence. But somebody has to be revising SOP to keep pace with events, and if the Archduke's going to be constantly moving he needs to have the resources with him to keep up with that.
If, IYTU, you think an Archduke is more likely to stay put most of the time, then the assumption goes out the airlock and a smaller ship probably does make more sense, if only to be easier on the purse strings. So really, I think this discussion comes down to what you think high-level nobility do with most of their time- do they stay put, or do they travel?
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I never said he would attend all the investures, however out of 48+ Subsector Dukes, 150-300 or so Counts and Marquis, and 1500 Barons, some of those are going to be worthy of the trip. The President didn't show for either change of command while I was at Fort Riley, but there certainly were Senators, Congressmen and the Govenor there. And that is only a 2 Star Billet. I think of the ArchDukes more as a cross between a Govenor and a Senator than the President. (After all it is the Third Imperium, not the 3rd Conglomeration of Grand Duchies.) Now since there are a few that our ArchDuke isn't going to be able to avoid, and since he has to actually travel there and back. (And an ArchDuke isn't an XBoat Message, he isn't travelling Pony Express style. There are going t o be all sorts of Politically powerful Sycophants, Lesser Nobles, MegaCorporate officers, etc, that will be highly put off that, since they were along the route, they weren't visited.
The Nobility are political animals. They are the Representatives of the Emperor. THat doesn't mean they can afford to sit in an Ivory Tower all day and make decisions. They have to get out there and shake hands with important people. That is their job, and part of their job description. Even if they only go to Capital once in a while, remember that it takes an X-Boat a year to get from Regina to Capital, and an X-Boat message doesn't stop enroute.
I know you didn't write it, but as a side note: An Archduke will never be able to travel all the systems in his domain. Not even 10% I assume. Travelling 1500 systems, even just hopping in, saying hello, and zooming off again, will take ~30 years of time, 2/3 of which are spent in jumpspace.
Practical aspects aside, these are nobles, not robots (nor PCs... my players needed to be prodded with -DMs to awareness-depended tasks and with brewing mutiny to spend any time planetside).
Regards,
Tobias [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]But the Nobility can't not stop. That isn't really an option. After all if they piss off too many of the local Nobility by snubbing them then they will never get to run anything. Issuing orders from on high only works if the people on the ground want to be ruled by you.
A thought occurs: Maybe some archduke use an imposter/stand-in type as Strephon did. Another thought occurs (*scrambles through his collection for the MT Refs Companion*): At TL 15, it is possible to program "pseudoreality personalities", that is, computer programs which, with the aid of holographic projection, look and act like you. These can be programmed to be capable of discussion and explanation of certain subjects. Now that I think of it, I used something like this - simulating Norris - in one of my MT campaigns.
This technology can be used to issue "orders" which you can actually ask for clarification, interpretation and further advice. I imagine this would be a very useful tool for an interstellar ruler.
Don't worry. I am used to far worse pedantics.
But feudal obligations can also work if the lesser nobles occasionally pay their homage to the Archduke, rather than the Archduke touring the Domain. Of course, this will still require the Archduke to travel, namely when he does the same at the court of the Emperor.
Well, IMTU, they would normally spend at least 50% of their time on their capital. Of course, this would vary with the individual noble.
Regards,
Tobias
Sure, but even for a subsector Duke, this is bound to be an uncommon occurrence, much more so for lesser nobles.
Lucky you. Our politicians, while having no problem with sending the chronically underfinanced Bundeswehr around the world, for the most part can't be bothered to even take a look at their soldiers.
But this will take even longer. Consider: An Archduke is to make a tour of just 10% of his worlds. This will take, if you want to spend 5 days average planetside, about 6 years, assuming you fly an absolutely perfect route.
Now that *could* work, and I see no reason why it shouldn't IYTU, but it will indeed mean the Archduke's court is largely nomadic. The 11th-Century German Kings I brought up would not be such a bad comparison in this case after all. An interesting model in its own right, but for MTU I would choose a different one.
Regards,
Tobias
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Wouldn't it be more feasible for the sub-sector level nobles to travel to the Archduke, or to one of the Archdukes "circuit" worlds for things like investitures etc.?
How many sector Dukes or Archdukes actually make regular trips to Capital?
Not many, I'd bet
YMMV
How many sector Dukes or Archdukes actually make regular trips to Capital?
Not many, I'd bet
YMMV
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Given the actual size of a Sector. (As goes the ArchDuke so go the Sector Dukes, so for the sake of sanity, lets take this down to a level that is a little less mind numbing, of course a couple of the domains are no bigger than a sector.)
There are roughly 400 worlds in a Sector. Remembering that these trips aren't going to be straight line or the most efficient route. Spending a week planetside for every week in Jump, and using a Jump-4 ship, (Jump 6 is a little too ineffecient except for anything but a Courier or long trips. It takes the MT rules to make a Jump-6 warship work.) it will take roughly 40 weeks for a round trip from the Coreward end of a Sector to the Rimward end. Over the course of a 4 year term, with approximately 400 nobles in a sector, having politically important events with just 1% of them will keep you travelling more than sitting at home. Expand that to an entire Domain.....
There will be events for which the trip to Capital will be neccessary. I would think that Moot confirmation of a new Emperor would be one such event. Coronations. Archdule investures, Imperial Family Weddings, State Funerals... They wouldn't be regular but they would happen more often than you would think. Especially for those Nobles in closer proximity to Capital.
How many sector Dukes or Archdukes actually make regular trips to Capital?
Not many, I'd bet
YMMV
Going back to my original thoughts, on a 400 Ton yacht being sufficient, I no longer believe that. Not for anything above a SubSector Duke. (Who can actually spend less time travelling, because a good Jump-4 Yacht will get them anywhere within their domain in short order.) Sector Dukes, ArchDukes and some Subsector Dukes, will be more like a Travelling Circus. Though I would think it would be more like a Caravan than everyone on one ship. (Individual tastes of course varying.) In most cases nothing much bigger than say, the King Richard (5000 Tons) would ever be required, though since the King Richard is only Jump2 I don't think it, itself would work but something along those lines and about that size.
