Originally posted by far-trader:
... In that case I'd make it a close structure with an upgrade to fully streamlined and save a few MCr.
QUOTE]
How do you fully streamline a close structure or is that T20 rules?
Originally posted by far-trader:
... In that case I'd make it a close structure with an upgrade to fully streamlined and save a few MCr.
QUOTE]
How do you fully streamline a close structure or is that T20 rules?
Yep, T20. That was XO's original specification for design system back on page one. In T20 you start with the rough configurations that are pretty close to HG specs and then can upgrade the streamlining on most of them in steps for extra cost and avionics, and in the case of airframes extra volume as well.Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
How do you fully streamline a close structure or is that T20 rules?
Andy,Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
Just a comment: John Wayne owned a yacht. It was a converted WWII destroyer. Weapons removed of course.
Tobias,Originally posted by Tobias:
Re: A few points. IMHO and IMTU all of course.
No one is suggesting a 100K vessel either. Count the staterrom aboard the 400-tonner and do the math. Aside from the crew, just how much of the 'closest staff' can fit aboard. Will an archduke occasionally travel aboard a 400-tonner? Yes, in emergencies and after much preparation on both ends. Will a 400-tonner be an archduke's primary vessel as suggestred by XO before he began backpeddling? Hell no.1. There is absolutely no conceivable reason why an Archduke should be any more "cut off from the chain of command" in a 400-ton-vessel than he would be in a 100000-ton-vessel.
Do you seriously believe POTUS travels around outside DC in only a limo? I take it you've never seen the POTUS entourage then. They begin arriving days or weeks before POTUS shows up. There's even a presidential medical team that takes over portions of various hospitals along his route. Even with near instantaneous comms here on Earth and very rapid transport, POTUS must be within hands reach of the vital parts of his government at all times.2. The "hot air balloon" or "golf cart" analogies, as well as the general comparison to the President nowadays don't work. A hot air balloon or a golf cart do not fulfill the requirements that Air Force One or a presidential limousine do.
While 1000dTons is too small and only one vessel is silly, you see the need for a vessel larger than 400 dTons too.A small vessel, as mentioned above, can fulfill these, although I would see a 1000+ ton vessel at this level.
Who said he would?3. Only very rarely will an Archduke actually accompany fleets to the front lines.
Again, who said he would?His role is at the *Domain* level, and he certainly isn't going to command anything at this level if he hops around at the front lines.
Really? You mean communications only travel as fast as ships can? I never knew that about Traveller. I always thought you could dial someone up on subspace radio or something.His place is in a secure, accertained headquarters behind the lines which serves as a communications hub. This is Traveller, not our world where communications to any place of the world take minutes.
Just like the soon-to-be-archduke Norris during the 5th Frontier War right? It's a shame none of us realized that until now.The Archduke will by nature have to limit himself to strategical directions and leave the actual fighting to others. There is no other way.
Who said he uses a battleship? Point out the post 'cause I can't find it. While you're at it, point out the post with the 100K dTon number too.Carrying a full-fledged naval battleship around as a yacht in peace time would be a waste of resources.
Read the novel again and pay attention to the context.As a side note, I just had to think of the last Hornblower novel, where he is CiC in the West Indies. Anybody remember the scene where he is paying a visit to New Orleans in a small cutter and the ambassador is dismayed because it's just such a small, unimpressive vessel?
Yes, the cutter fits Hornblower's purpose because there are no other ships to be had. Are you seriously comparing the miniscule assets available to the 1820s RN in the West Indies to the assets available to a man who rules more than one thousand worlds?It nevertheless fit the purpose.
C and D are the kickers. Without FTL comms, an archduke must travel about with an appreciable portion of his government. Look at what POTUS travels with, factor in no instant comms and then multiply by the number of worlds involved. Do you still think that can be crammed aboard a 400dTon or 1000dTon vessel?And I guess a yacht will fit the purpose if it (snip) c) Accomodates staff and possibly family members. d) Enables the noble to continue his work while aboard.(snip)
About 10. On a 1000-ton vessel with very good performance you can easily accomodate 20-30. If you actually make passengers a priority, you can double this with no problems.Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
No one is suggesting a 100K vessel either. Count the staterrom aboard the 400-tonner and do the math. Aside from the crew, just how much of the 'closest staff' can fit aboard.
You totally missed the point, namely the irrelevance of your "golf cart" and "hot air balloon" comparisons.Do you seriously believe POTUS travels around outside DC in only a limo? I take it you've never seen the POTUS entourage then.
Well, the number of people accompanying our chief of government on a foreign visit - for example - is not exactly "mind-boggling".The people, advisors, and equipment that still travel with POTUS are mind-boggling despite the benefits of sat phones and jet aircraft that can link him with anyone on the planet, both communications and transportation luxuries that are impossible for an archduke to enjoy across his domain.
Again, government does not at all work like it does now. If you want to compare things, the travelling Kings of 11th-century Germany would be a more fitting comparison than the current-day US head of state.When an archduke moves away from his capital, he's got to take an important slice of his thousands of worlds domain government with him.
What would you need a "Fleet command vessel" for if you never command fleets?Who said he would?
a) Your previous comparisons all assumed 21th-century Earth conditions.Really? You mean communications only travel as fast as ships can? I never knew that about Traveller. I always thought you could dial someone up on subspace radio or something.
You mentioned "fleet command vessels". What should that actually be in your imagination? A tiny 5000-ton eggshell "commanding" a fleet of Battleships? I don't think so.Who said he uses a battleship? Point out the post 'cause I can't find it. While you're at it, point out the post with the 100K dTon number too.
I could now insert a snarky comment how I remember the novel very well (btw you misremembered some things).Hornblower is CinC in the 1820s (Napoleon dies during his tour there) and finds himself commanding a laughably puny squadron when compared to those during the Napoleonic Wars.
No, because an Archduke "governs" in a fundamentally different way from a current-day leader.Look at what POTUS travels with, factor in no instant comms and then multiply by the number of worlds involved.
No offense, but your head of state doesn't have ICBMs, SSBNs, and a nuclear armed SAC at his command. Niether does he have military forces - for good or ill - scattered around the globe. The German head of state's responsibilities are nothing when compared to POTUS' responsibilities.Originally posted by Tobias:
Well, the number of people accompanying our chief of government on a foreign visit - for example - is not exactly "mind-boggling".
Tobias, you're preaching to the choir here. I'm the guy who has been harping on 'territorial supremacy' versus 'territorial sovereignty' for over six years now remember? I'm the guy who constantly tells people that the Imperium does not run like a 21st Century, liberal, Western, democracy too.Again, government does not at all work like it does now.
No, it would not. People continually equate 'feudal' with 'medieval'. The two are not the same just as the democracies of classical Greece are not the same as the democracies of the 21st West. Periclean Athens and current day Germany may have governments based on similar philosophies but they are not the same thing. So to, neither are the 57th Century Imperium and 11th Century Germany.If you want to compare things, the travelling Kings of 11th-century Germany would be a more fitting comparison than the current-day US head of state.
You misunderstood my example. Did you google USS Mount Whitney? She is about as far from a warship as you can get. Minimal defensive weaponry, no armor to speak of, but oodles and oodles of comm and small craft. She does not operate within a battlefleet. She sits in a harbor and provides a commander with the means to control his forces within a theatre of operations. She's a mobile command post, she's not a warship, and she's exactly what an archduke needs.You brought, as an explicit example, a purely military command vessel. Which is absolutely unnecessary unless you accompany a military fleet.
My previous comparisons focussed on powerful government figures; POTUS versus archduke, and the means that they must employ to stay in touch with their governmental structures. My comparisons also alway added the proviso that POTUS and his huge entourage enjoyed instantaneous comms and rapid travel, luxuries that an archduke could not enjoy. The point I tried and failed to make was that, even with instant comms and rapid travel, POTUS required a huge entourage because of the power he controlled and so an archduke, who controlled much more power and could not count on instant comms and rapid travel, would require an even larger entourage.a) Your previous comparisons all assumed 21th-century Earth conditions.
Point taken. And if you intend on instructing me on the basic conditions of a setting which I've played since the Carter Administration, don't bother either.b) It's exactly the attitude displayed in your above reply that makes discussion with you a less than pleasant experience. If you do intend to go on like this, do not bother.
Google USS Mount Whitney.You mentioned "fleet command vessels". What should that actually be in your imagination? A tiny 5000-ton eggshell "commanding" a fleet of Battleships? I don't think so.
Go right ahead. Hornblower, not being a governing figure, is not pertinant to the discussion. You brought him up as an example of powerful figures travelling in tiny ships. I supplied the context in which he did so, the precise details do not matter. I have the entire series sitting on my shelves hardbound, inlcuding editions of the first three books printed in the late 30s. We could get into a p*ssing match over Hornblower canon or we could discuss the topic at hand. Answer me this; Why did Hornblower travel to New Orleans aboard the cutter? Was it because his few other, larger ships needed more elsewhere? Yes or no? Next, in what concievable situation would an archduke in control of 1500 worlds find himself limited to a small selection of ships like Hornblower was?I could now insert a snarky comment how I remember the novel very well (btw you misremembered some things).
Again, you're preaching to the choir. That's been my refrain for over six years now. The Imperium does govern itself far differently from current day nations. However, 1500 worlds ADD UP. No matter how little the Imperium does, doing it 1500 times ADDS UP.No, because an Archduke "governs" in a fundamentally different way from a current-day leader.
Actually, in effect, he does have nuclear weapons at his disposal. Well, he did until fairly recently in any event, not sure whether he has now.Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
No offense, but your head of state doesn't have ICBMs, SSBNs, and a nuclear armed SAC at his command.
Actually, he does. On a much smaller scale, though.Niether does he have military forces - for good or ill - scattered around the globe.
Yes, but as I said, even among leaders with similar world-shattering-powers, this is an extreme example.I chose POTUS as an example because he is currently - for good or ill - the most powerful government figure on the planet.
In a sense, yes. In another sense, no. An Archduke's ability to directly affect his domain is fairly limited (IMTU at least). He delegates most decisions, even crucial ones.And even then, POTUS' power and responsibilities are a hiccup in a hurricane when compared to those of an archduke.
No arguing that he does have a lot of work. And he certainly has a vast staff to assist him. But he cannot effectively govern while travelling.No matter how minimal Imperial governance is, 1500 systems adds up. An archduke has a lot of work on his hands.
I should have added an "even". Of course, neither are appropriate comparisons, but even said Kings are more fitting than current-day earth. I chose the example for a reason, though, because several things that are relevant for Domain rule are there , like building a thrustworthy entourage and placing them in key position, governing through multiple parallel channels etc., in this particular type of medieval rule.No, it would not. People continually equate 'feudal' with 'medieval'.
Yes, I googled. The site has pictures of her operating with a ship I used to serve aboard.You misunderstood my example. Did you google USS Mount Whitney? She is about as far from a warship as you can get. Minimal defensive weaponry, no armor to speak of, but oodles and oodles of comm and small craft.
What for? You cannot direct a fleet even one parsec away. And even if an Archduke would use one, he would simply embark on a command vessel that was already there, like a political leader would do nowadays.She does not operate within a battlefleet. She sits in a harbor and provides a commander with the means to control his forces within a theatre of operations. She's a mobile command post, she's not a warship, and she's exactly what an archduke needs.
In my view, he cannot "command" in the normal sense of the word at all. Like in the age of sail, but even more extreme, such "command" will be limited to issuing directives before the fleet deploys, and then leaving everything to the initiative of the commander on the spot.We both agree that an archduke would rarely, if ever, command from the 'front'. He also cannot direct operations from too far in the rear lest his orders so far out date as to be useless (q.v. the 4th Frontier War). So, he must split the difference somehow and set up shop close to the front while being distant enough to be protected from the front.
Yes, but this doesn't work. You cannot stay in touch with your government while travelling between stars. Currently, you can stay in touch while travelling by air or sea.My previous comparisons focussed on powerful government figures; POTUS versus archduke, and the means that they must employ to stay in touch with their governmental structures.
See, and I say: He requires an entourage because of instant comms and rapid travel.The point I tried and failed to make was that, even with instant comms and rapid travel, POTUS required a huge entourage because of the power he controlled and so an archduke,
I did. She's neither tiny, nor an eggshell.Google USS Mount Whitney.
I just supplied an anecdote on how even small ships can suffice when you don't take representation into account. If you were to use the novel as an exact comparison, you would have to use the governor as a counterpart to an Archduke, who naturally didn't travel around the Caribbean at all.Go right ahead. Hornblower, not being a governing figure, is not pertinant to the discussion. You brought him up as an example of powerful figures travelling in tiny ships.
They can't in my opinion. When an Archduke travels, he will simply have to delegate power to someone else (a duke, I presume). Every interstellar voyage, no matter how many people you take with you, involves being completely cut off from the rest of the universe for at least 50% of your travel time, without regarding all the other implications.When they move - and they must occasionally - they will need take thoser critical portions of their governments with them. They will also need to ensure constant, secure communications with those parts of their government they are forced to leave behind.
And do you think this cruiser was his personal *yacht* or a Navy vessel which filled this role?If you really want to know what kind of ship an archduke routinely travels aboard, check out just what sort of ship Dulinor arrived at Sylea aboard in both MT and G:T. In both the OTL and ATL, Dulinor's arrival at the Capital in a large, jump6 cruiser illicted no comments.
See, this is what I see differently.Originally posted by ChaserCaffey:
So, our Archduke is going to be travelling primarily for three reasons- he's sticking close (but not too close) to the front during some kind of military emergency,
My thinking is: He can't, or it will at least be very impractical to do so. This is especially true if he travels to Capital. Since an Archduke delegates power - of a high degree - the whole time, it would make IMHO much more sense for him to go this route in such a case as well, instead of creating an extremely awkward government-from-afar-apparatus.The thing is, the Archduke would have to keep generating domain-level policy while on his voyage, and getting it out to the people who need to know about it.
Total agreement here.Originally posted by Bhoins:
I would never assume that an ArchDuke, or even a Duke couldn't purchase a Cruiser out of the Privy Purse. The question is why they would want to. If they need a FLag Bridge then they get a Cruiser or Drednaught to carry their flag. But to go launch a ship, to go to a ball, to play host to a bunch of lesser nobles. the needs aren't as great for a Warship.
Yes, but this is for extraordinary situations. I don't think the Archduke is going to personally invest all the subsector dukes. Even if so, it can be expected, that the designated successor travels to him in most cases, not vice versa. Travelling to a subsector on the border will take months each time, and most of that time will be spent out of reach in jumpspace.Since you can't pick up the phone and call your Dukes, Counts, Marquis or Barons, you are going to have to send a representative, or for special occasions, or to show great favor or displeasure you are going to have to go yourself. ArchDuke Nells wasn't demoted by representative, nor was Archduke Erechs appointed by a representative. The Emperor went to Gateway Domain to deal with the situation. The Emperor Travels, the lesser Nobility would also be expected to travel.
Yes, absolutely my view as well.You leave your Beauracracy behind and let them stay in touch with the rest of the domain. RUn day to day affairs, etc, according to your Standing Operating Proceedures. While you go and see the Domain, the people, (well the important ones anyway) and make informed decisions from the location of the people.
I know you didn't write it, but as a side note: An Archduke will never be able to travel all the systems in his domain. Not even 10% I assume. Travelling 1500 systems, even just hopping in, saying hello, and zooming off again, will take ~30 years of time, 2/3 of which are spent in jumpspace.But because there are 1500 Systems in a Domain, there are on average 48 Subsector Dukes in a Domain. You will be spending more time on the road than sitting at home.
Conceded. We could argue for a good long time over whether it's *possible* for an Archduke to have some kind of command role, but I think it's reasonable to stipulate that it would be rare enough to be ignored for the purposes of the discussion.Originally posted by Tobias:
Note that this is pretty much a hypothetical situation anyway. There are, in pre-Rebellion times, only two Domains where a military emergency at the Domain level is even possible - and one of those didn't even have an Archduke.
Almost all space travel (which is very little in my opinion) by the Archduke will be representative, social or official, corresponding to the opportunities you laid out below.
I think that the difference in our thinking is caused by an assumption I made when laying out the specifications for my Archduke-mobile, but (on review of my post) neglected to explicitly state. Specifically, I assumed that the Archduke will be moving about most of the time- even if he doesn't personally invest every sector/subsector duke, which I agree is just not feasible, there will be enough things of sufficient importance to the Domain/Imperium at any given time that the Archduke's personal presence will be required in order to handle them. As a previous poster pointed out, the Emperor travels, and it is reasonable to assume that those of his vassals who are stewards of large portions of space will be expected to do so as well. Feudal systems are based on personal relationships of fealty, so a personal presence is required for important events. (Sorry if that sounds pedantic- it is important to my point, I promise) Note that this doesn't include trips to Capital, which Archdukes will probably be required to make from time to time when something especially important is being discussed in the Moot that they just can't leave to a representative.My thinking is: He can't, or it will at least be very impractical to do so. This is especially true if he travels to Capital. Since an Archduke delegates power - of a high degree - the whole time, it would make IMHO much more sense for him to go this route in such a case as well, instead of creating an extremely awkward government-from-afar-apparatus.
Of course, an Archduke will use different vessels in different situations, but for his personal yacht, I don't see a multi-kiloton-cruiser. This of course depends on the Archduke's personal preference as well. Some make think that size does matter. Others might prefer a sleek, small ship.
I never said he would attend all the investures, however out of 48+ Subsector Dukes, 150-300 or so Counts and Marquis, and 1500 Barons, some of those are going to be worthy of the trip. The President didn't show for either change of command while I was at Fort Riley, but there certainly were Senators, Congressmen and the Govenor there. And that is only a 2 Star Billet. I think of the ArchDukes more as a cross between a Govenor and a Senator than the President. (After all it is the Third Imperium, not the 3rd Conglomeration of Grand Duchies.) Now since there are a few that our ArchDuke isn't going to be able to avoid, and since he has to actually travel there and back. (And an ArchDuke isn't an XBoat Message, he isn't travelling Pony Express style. There are going t o be all sorts of Politically powerful Sycophants, Lesser Nobles, MegaCorporate officers, etc, that will be highly put off that, since they were along the route, they weren't visited.Originally posted by Tobias:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Yes, but this is for extraordinary situations. I don't think the Archduke is going to personally invest all the subsector dukes. Even if so, it can be expected, that the designated successor travels to him in most cases, not vice versa. Travelling to a subsector on the border will take months each time, and most of that time will be spent out of reach in jumpspace.
I know you didn't write it, but as a side note: An Archduke will never be able to travel all the systems in his domain. Not even 10% I assume. Travelling 1500 systems, even just hopping in, saying hello, and zooming off again, will take ~30 years of time, 2/3 of which are spent in jumpspace.But because there are 1500 Systems in a Domain, there are on average 48 Subsector Dukes in a Domain. You will be spending more time on the road than sitting at home.
A thought occurs: Maybe some archduke use an imposter/stand-in type as Strephon did. Another thought occurs (*scrambles through his collection for the MT Refs Companion*): At TL 15, it is possible to program "pseudoreality personalities", that is, computer programs which, with the aid of holographic projection, look and act like you. These can be programmed to be capable of discussion and explanation of certain subjects. Now that I think of it, I used something like this - simulating Norris - in one of my MT campaigns.Originally posted by ChaserCaffey:
As a previous poster pointed out, the Emperor travels, and it is reasonable to assume that those of his vassals who are stewards of large portions of space will be expected to do so as well.
Don't worry. I am used to far worse pedantics.Feudal systems are based on personal relationships of fealty, so a personal presence is required for important events. (Sorry if that sounds pedantic- it is important to my point, I promise)
Well, IMTU, they would normally spend at least 50% of their time on their capital. Of course, this would vary with the individual noble.If, IYTU, you think an Archduke is more likely to stay put most of the time, then the assumption goes out the airlock and a smaller ship probably does make more sense, if only to be easier on the purse strings. So really, I think this discussion comes down to what you think high-level nobility do with most of their time- do they stay put, or do they travel?
Sure, but even for a subsector Duke, this is bound to be an uncommon occurrence, much more so for lesser nobles.Originally posted by Bhoins:
I never said he would attend all the investures, however out of 48+ Subsector Dukes, 150-300 or so Counts and Marquis, and 1500 Barons, some of those are going to be worthy of the trip.
Lucky you. Our politicians, while having no problem with sending the chronically underfinanced Bundeswehr around the world, for the most part can't be bothered to even take a look at their soldiers.The President didn't show for either change of command while I was at Fort Riley, but there certainly were Senators, Congressmen and the Govenor there.
But this will take even longer. Consider: An Archduke is to make a tour of just 10% of his worlds. This will take, if you want to spend 5 days average planetside, about 6 years, assuming you fly an absolutely perfect route.But the Nobility can't not stop. That isn't really an option. After all if they piss off too many of the local Nobility by snubbing them then they will never get to run anything. Issuing orders from on high only works if the people on the ground want to be ruled by you.
Given the actual size of a Sector. (As goes the ArchDuke so go the Sector Dukes, so for the sake of sanity, lets take this down to a level that is a little less mind numbing, of course a couple of the domains are no bigger than a sector.)Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Wouldn't it be more feasible for the sub-sector level nobles to travell to the Archduke, or to one of the Archdukes "circuit" worlds for things like investitures etc.?
There will be events for which the trip to Capital will be neccessary. I would think that Moot confirmation of a new Emperor would be one such event. Coronations. Archdule investures, Imperial Family Weddings, State Funerals... They wouldn't be regular but they would happen more often than you would think. Especially for those Nobles in closer proximity to Capital.
How many sector Dukes or Archdukes actually make regular trips to Capital?
Not many, I'd bet![]()
YMMV