Yacht: Jump-1 or Jump-4 ?

[far-trader]

Well the way I handled this in my old TU was to just leave a certain volume of the ship as open for customization and include a budget allowance for it. That way if I needed a Yacht for an NPC or a PC earned one it was easy to take the basic stats and then play with the custom space and budget to suit the particular needs/wants of the Noble. No two Yachts will be the same even of the same class for the same rank of Nobility.

This was in my CT (mostly Book 2) small ship TU. In that the basic type Y was for rich civilians. In addition to that there was a series of type YN Yachts, each at a better TL and perfomance level and progressively larger and more expensive. J2 M2 for Knights at TL11, J3 3G for Barons at TL12, and so on up to J6 6G for Dukes at TL15. I saw little point in doing anything more since even the mid level Noble ranks are rarely PCs and seldom encountered as NPCs. I'm working on entering those old designs among other collected junk from my notes so I'll try to remember to post them to The Fleet when done.

On a sidenote, while doing that I was looking through some dictionaries and such to find the proper adjective for Count. Like Knightly is to Knight, __________ is to Count. Any help? Anyway, in looking I found (or rediscovered) that the Traveller Nobility ranks seem out of order. Has anyone else noticed this or was it ever explained as a variation. What I mean is as far as the few places I looked said, the order should be Baron, Count, Marquis, Duke but Traveller has always had it Baron, Marquis, Count, Duke. Just curious.

 

[flykiller]

the archduke, his wife, and two servants, all sharing one bathroom.

you have GOT to be kidding.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Tobias:
11th-Century German Kings I brought up would not be such a bad comparison in this case after all. An interesting model in its own right, but for MTU I would choose a different one.

By the way, (ironically) the travelling kings could be an interesting model for non-OTU democratic, semi-democratic or alliance polities, in which designating one member world as a "capital" will be diplomatically unwise; the government will be stationed aboard a large ship and jump from system to system to keep itself updated and to prevent any world from claiming that another has got preferrantial treatment.

In Babylon 5, the Minbari ruling body (the Grey Council) works from a warship/cruiser.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by ChaserCaffey:
- Bodyguards. For the sake of argument, twelve of the Archduke's toughest, roughest Huscarles, although if the ship ends up being particularly large more may be needed. Space should probably be allocated for battle dress and the like for them. Barracks-style arrangements for them.

It seems to me that the Archduke's personal bodyguards will have far better accomodations than barracks - privilegues (sp?) will be given to them as they are the best and most loyal soldiers under His Grace's command. These will also help keep them loyal.

 

[BetterThanLife]

One quick note on Stateroom sizes. A High Passage costs KCr10. That isn't cheap and is pretty luxurious. When you consider that in all versions of Traveller the most a Retired Admiral gets, after 8 Terms of faithful service to the Imperium, is KCr10 per year! The most highly salaried job position mentioned in canon is a Ship's Pilot, at KCr6 +/- per month. Living Expenses for a DUKE, amount to CR 900 per month (High Living CT which doesn't depend on Social Standing, CR3750 per month(according to MT)and CR6000 per month in T20. (I just downloaded TNE and haven't found (yet)the TNE number.) The T20 number is so much higher because the Duke is Social Standing 24 instead of a mere 15. A Month of normal Travelling for High Passengers (2 Jumps per month) is CR20000. Having a 2 Stateroom Suite, is extremely Luxurious, especially since it is on your own ship that is at your beck and call. Hell lets give our ArchDuke 3, but that includes the Spouse's space, and an additional Stateroom for each child in the immediate family. Talk about Luxury. If you just include the Archduke and Spouse and call it commercial travel as opposed to a Private Yacht, that is spending the equivalent of KCr60 per month. Well above normal living expenses for such a person. (10-15+ times high living at that Social Standing.) I think that a Triple Suite for our Duke and a Spouse/Close personal friend, is more than enough to show real money.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tobias:
11th-Century German Kings I brought up would not be such a bad comparison in this case after all. An interesting model in its own right, but for MTU I would choose a different one.

By the way, (ironically) the travelling kings could be an interesting model for non-OTU democratic, semi-democratic or alliance polities, in which designating one member world as a "capital" will be diplomatically unwise; the government will be stationed aboard a large ship and jump from system to system to keep itself updated and to prevent any world from claiming that another has got preferrantial treatment.

In Babylon 5, the Minbari ruling body (the Grey Council) works from a warship/cruiser. </font>[/QUOTE]However Babylon 5 has FTL comms.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Now a stupid question. If the Nobility travels about on these incredibly huge Yachts, then who buys the Standard 200 Ton Yacht? More importantly who pays the High Passage rate on a Free Trader? Someone that can afford passage isn't going to pay that much for a simple one parsec jump on a regular basis especially on some tramp ship.

 

[far-trader]

As I noted above in MTU (my mostly CT OTU of old) the standard type Y Yacht is the ship of the very rich civilians. Captains of industry and minor mega-corp officers. They only need a parsec of travel most of the time (to shuttle between two distant worlds or two close systems) but they want (need) that trip to be secure for business sensitive reasons and available 24/7.

In some cases the ship is an older used model that has been bought by a private individual as a personal touring ship for thier retirement.

Who pays high passage rates on a Free Trader is a little below that. Senior company and mega-corp representitives travelling on business. And there will be those who save their money for that special trip of a lifetime too. And then there are the members of the TAS who get a high passage ticket every other month. Without that you probably wouldn't have many ex-services types travelling.

Personally I always found the Cr???(SOC) method of cost of living too flat. I think my old numbers were Cr100(SOCxSOC) so in CT TU a Duke would have a monthly upkeep of Cr22,500.

I also thought the "standard" wages for crew salaries were screwy compared to the muster tables and retirement pensions. And of course changing the cost of living meant this had to be looked at too. I had at one time figured out a more even (to my mind) system based on skill and rank (nobility, officer and enlisted - not necessarily as actual service ranks but the equivalent) rather than position. One that tied in better with SOC. Haven't got to those notes yet and the details escape me at the moment. (recreating from foggy memory...) I think it started with the average personal (SOC 7) monthly upkeep of Cr4,900 (Cr100(SOCxSOC) and a professional skill level of 5 at junior officer level (rank O2). So it was probably monthly employment income = Cr500(SkillxValue) where Value was a factor of SOC. SOC 1-5 was enlisted rank 1-5 and had a Value of (Rank/2). SOC 6-10 was officer rank 1-5 and had a Value of (Rank/1). SOC 11-15 was nobility rank 1-5 (SOC 11-15) and had a Value of (Rankx2). Something like that.

 

[aramis]

Bhoins: Those yachts, with space for 6 passengers, are for people like barons, knights, and billionaires.

I doubt very much the mistresses, hangers on, et al, will be allowed on the yacht. If a mistress comes, she's going to be there in place of the wife. The kids likely WON'T go, as they''ll be in school. The staff I put in are the batman, also known by the terms body-servant, dresser, and houseboy, the Lady's equivalent is the Lady in Waiting. The Butler is the "household coordinator", he handles light secretarial, household management, and odd errands, as well as running the main floor of the manse when there. Aboard ship, he's the receptionist, too.

Guest suites will probably be two-room suites:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">+-----+-----+-----+
| | | |
| | | |
| X X |
+-----+--X--+-----+

+-----+--X--+-----+
| X X |
| | | |
| | | |
+-----+-----+-----+</pre>[/QUOTE]Here shown are two, using the same 3/4's rule, two more deck squares are available for common areas.
Note that each private room has a small fresher (Fold down commode, wash-basin, fold out closet shower).

The large fresher in the "royal" suite is a "permanent fixture" type fresher, 3x1.5m, or roughly 10x5 feet; shower, commode, two washbasins. Each room would have a washbasin, and probably a fold-out commode. So, "Sharing" the large fresher is far less onerous than portrayed; it's for showers and guests, and when not smelling is the end result, as opposed to simply relieving, if you catch my drift.

Here is a sample of how this works; the below section also provides 10 squares 1.5m per side of additional deck space not included in the cluster
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">+-------+-----+----+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| His |FR | LW | Hers | | | | | | |
| +---x-+-xx-+ | | | | | | |
| X X | X X | X X |
+-------+ +-------+-----+--X--+-----+-----+--X--+-----+
| BM X X X
+----+ +---| Ofc +-----+--X--+-----+-----+--X--+-----+
| BU X X FR| | X X | X X |
+----+-------------+-------+ | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+</pre>[/QUOTE]FT: If one takes those CrImp pensions, and retires to a nice quiet backwater TL5 world, one will be able to make it quite nicely under MT on CrImp8K... as soc upkeep is in CrLocal.

The T20 Soc maintenance rates are a tad steep; Mea Culpa.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Bhoins: Those yachts, with space for 6 passengers, are for people like barons, knights, and billionaires.

I personally thought the Safari Ship made for a better Yacht than the Type-Y. Convert the Capture tanks to entertainment facilities and perhaps a vehicle bay or two, and Viola Nice Jump-2 Yacht. Even a Baron in a cluster is going to want to be able to leave it occasionally.

I doubt very much the mistresses, hangers on, et al, will be allowed on the yacht. If a mistress comes, she's going to be there in place of the wife. The kids likely WON'T go, as they''ll be in school. The staff I put in are the batman, also known by the terms body-servant, dresser, and houseboy, the Lady's equivalent is the Lady in Waiting. The Butler is the "household coordinator", he handles light secretarial, household management, and odd errands, as well as running the main floor of the manse when there. Aboard ship, he's the receptionist, too.

Actually I meant either the Mistress or the Wife, obviously, except in very strange situations, not both at once. As for the Kids, Of course you will bring them, especially for an extended trip. That is why the Very Rich hire tutors. Besides that way the family gets to be together, but more importantly the kids get to learn how things are done so they can more easily step into their parents' shoes when the time comes.

Guest suites will probably be two-room suites:

I don't see the need for that except for especially important guests, perhaps one or two on the yacht with the majority being simple staterooms. Though IMTU, it has always been the rule that two staterooms have a connecting door so can be easily enough configured as Suites. (Because in the CT rules couples take two rooms and don't normally share.) I also don't use, especially for passenger accomodations, communal Freshers. Of course that means Freshers are about the size of a closet, or an Airliner Bathroom with a fold away Toilet and Sink and the whole thing is a Shower as well, with a Permement or Retracting Privacy screen. Now the Owner's Fresher might be a bit more luxurious, full size jacuzzi tub, seperate shower, dual sinks, stationary fixtures, etc.

FT: If one takes those CrImp pensions, and retires to a nice quiet backwater TL5 world, one will be able to make it quite nicely under MT on CrImp8K... as soc upkeep is in CrLocal.

The T20 Soc maintenance rates are a tad steep; Mea Culpa.

But in comparison to high passage the T20 Soc High Living Maintenance rate is still quite a bit less than a pair of High Passages per month. So having a single stateroom on your own yacht is quite luxurious.

 

[flykiller]

So having a single stateroom on your own yacht is quite luxurious.

(stare)

an archduke will have enough money in his office budget to buy a pair of 100,000 dton yachts without blinking - if he doesn't inherit them from a previous archduke.

the scale at which you guys are operating ... is just inadequate.

 

[far-trader]

It depends on the version of the OTU you subscribe to. Is the Kinunir a fearsome harbinger of Imperial might used to keep whole systems in line or is it a nearly useless ship that the Fleet Commodore might use (if nothing else is available) for transport to their Tigress?

Who are you to say MTU (or any TU) allows an Archduke an operations budget of Trillions of Credits?

What I'm saying is it comes down to personal interpretation and the background of the particular TU. I don't see right or wrong answers here, only suggestions across a wide scale of possibilities.

 

[veltyen]

Dropping down in scale a little.

A count/baron of a population 8 (320,000,000) TL8 polity could have approximately 200 MCr as their personal yearly stipend. A standard yacht at around 5-10 MCr/year purchase and upkeep is certainly possible. Call it "Space Force One" if you like. Most of this stipend should be spent on more useful things, personal guard, administrators, reeves, bribes, infrastructure and so on.

GDP numbers are based on the USA. 2 Trillion Credit GDP, 20 GCr goes to the imperium, 200 MCr is the nobles "skim".

So sure, an Archduke could purchase a 100 kdTon yacht, but there are so many more useful things that it could go towards. The Dukes entire household needs to be funded from this skim, most of which should go to infrastructure. Want to think of how many "Dukes Universities/Freeways/Spaceports" are in the Imperium?

 

[aramis]

Bhoins:

Many of the very rich actually put their kids in boarding schools, to avoid having to take them with.

With nobles, it's actually most likely that they will be put in a well guarded boarding school with easy access to the demesne, and NOT taken with, both for security reasons (you don't want your heir with you in the most likely places to get killed) and continuity of education.

Tutors for the mediaeval nobles were the primary form of education for ALL the educated. Once public schooling became the norm, it also became the norm for the nobility of europe, according to most of the documentary evidence I've seen. Military schools, boarding schools (Much the same, but without cadet ranks), and day-schools. Social interaction is a major part of the modern learning model.

Communal education is part of social indoctrination; nobles who avoid same are quite like to be nobles who aren't around long. Not for what they don't learn, but for the lack of respect for the schools. Send kids to the public institutions is part of proving the value of same said institutions. Oxford, Caimbridge, and Eaton are as honored as they are for their Noble attendees as they are for their quality of education.

Likewise, unless taking a family cruise, Noble families tend to gather only at their own strongholds. This is to prevent assassination attempts, and to insure the heir and the noble are not killed together. Her Grace Sara Fergusson, Duches of York, commented about that very issue on the Tonight Show last year. Her daughters and their cousins aren't supposed to be in the same vehicle, etc. The Princely class are supposed to travel dispersed, so than one surgical strike, by god or man, doesn't erradicate them all at once. (Since the order is: Princes Charles of Wales, William of Wales, Harry of Wales, Andrew of York, Princesses Beatrice of York then Eugenie of York, the Earl of Wessex, Louise of Wessex, Anne (princess Royal), you seldom, if ever, see them all together. It just isn't done.)

That being said, it is possible that the family MIGHT vacation together; it is unlikely to be the norm to travel with. Partly because the children can, if nothing else, take care of the ceremonial BS while the parents are gone, and the expense.

Remember, the average Baron Planetary is as powerful as POTUS, or more so. His yacht is a pleasure craft, more than a working jump-craft, except in extraordinary circumstances. He has huscarles of his own, plus can call upon imperial and/or local military assets. He may well own the system navy.

A count, ruling several worlds is far less likely to take the kids with. He's going to need the kids to feed the media on the homeworld, while he makes his progress. Which can be several months away from home.

When Lord (i can't remember his name) was sent to inspect the colonies, he left his wife and children at home. When Charles goes to inspect the Ghurkas, the RAN or RCN, he doesn't take the boys, and seldom takes even one.

It's a farce, his inspection, a political show, but a very important political show. (Ok, well, for the navy, at least, he's been a serving naval officer, a Commander, IIRC..) Especially since he moves without immediate bodyguard amongst them. A sign of the close trust between the commonwealth nations that the English Prince & Heir is safe amongst them.

Even canon points this out, in the TNE discussion of Norris' father and brother; Norris was the spare, not the heir.

As for the passenger suites, I'd be assuming 2-3 people per each 2-SR suite. Either a couple, or an important person and his companion, or important person and his batman and butler. Or two persons of note, or four persons of lesser import.

Some B&B's operate on this model, and scarily enough about the same room size! The idea came from a B&B we stayed in in Cooper Landing, Alaska. Two separate rooms, and a similar sized common room shared, plus access to some communal spaces in the "lodge" proper (IE, dining and worship facilities).

 

[flykiller]

Who are you to say MTU (or any TU) allows an Archduke an operations budget of Trillions of Credits?

you know, you're absolutely right. there's nothing to say that a personal representative of the emperor, one of four or five in the entire imperium, who is responsible for the defense, standing, and administrative supervision of four thousand worlds and all that they contain, and who is the superior of countless barons, counts, dukes, and admirals, would have a budget greater than that of a successful freighter captain.

but if you want a bit more accounting for in-game circumstances ...

assume 12,000 Cr average annual income per person on a tech 15 world, .1 less for each tech level conversion down, 1% GDP imperial tax rate on each world, and that the archduke is allotted 1% of this for his own operations. that's not excessive, is it? consider just the major worlds of the spinward marches. ((22x10^9) + (.9)(1x10^9) + (.8)(3*10^9) + (.7)(11*10^9) + (.5)(10*10^9) + (.4)(10*10^9)) x 12,000 x .01 x .01 = 50,400MCr. an archduke stands over about three sectors, so that's 151,200MCr.

every year.

for however long there's been an archduke.

I don't see right or wrong answers here ....

well there is reasonable and unreasonable. you can say and do whatever you want, but geez!

I'll shut up now.

 

[far-trader]

Hey, I was just trying to point out the extremity of your own argument. I didn't see the suggestion (though I may have missed it) that it was an Archduke being confined to a single standard stateroom that got you crying "inadequate". I was going to say your own statement bordered on the other extreme but I didn't. I just tried to point out that not everybody is going to have fleets of Tigresses and Archdukes who can buy a new one every year for their personal use. OK, Tigress may be a poor example, it being over 300 Trillion Credits so it'll take the Archduke two years to buy one.

Anyway, hunting back for the quote it looks like you put it out of context. The context was comparing the book "cost of high living" to the price of a high passage ticket, and the cost of High Living would buy two high passages a month with change. That's what the comparison was about and in that case a single stateroom on your own ship does seem extravagant.

I do agree with you though, an Archduke would not be limited to standard stateroom on some piddly 200ton starship with J1. Heck even the Knightly Class of Yacht in my old games expected Sir to have a double-stateroom at least with J2 and my Ducal Class Yacht (still not an Archduke ok) had a J6 ship with 24 staterooms for the Duke and immediate staff and guests. Of that probably a full 6 staterooms worth would normally be the Duke's private quarters. And neither of those cases include the custom option space and budget left for whatever personal tastes or needs the individual Noble desires in addition to the regular rooms.

Anyway, I have never found the suggested costs of living, salaries, and such to fit too well together with the rest of the economics and have made my own tweaks here and there to try to correct it. It seemed to me the numbers were often just drawn out of a hat or generated by rolling dice without any concern for how it should all mesh. Maybe I'm wrong and there was some logic behind it but I could never find it.

Add to this the multiple systems of rules, each with a different way of doing it, and everybody else's opinion on how to figure GDP and taxes, exchange rates and whatnot to justify these huge budgets to allow creation of anything you want and you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe any number thrown about without some bibliographic reference to back it up.

I don't mind hearing different takes on it, but to know if it has enough validity I need to know where it comes from. Simply saying that this formula shows an average Archduke has 150 Trillion Credits at their personal disposal to piss away on whatever they please is not enough.

I don't want you to shut up flykiller, I value all reasoned input. I just want to know where it's from to know what it's compatible with.

I don't see where you got the idea I was giving you cause to come back with attitude, though that may have changed now given my response to same.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Tobias:
And do you think this cruiser was his personal *yacht* or a Navy vessel which filled this role?

Tobias,

Sorry, been away.

Dulinor's Sargon is described as a 'cruiser' every time it is mentioned by name, never as a 'yacht'. At the end of Dulinor's escape/dash back to Ilelish, he is said to rejoin the already active Domain/Federation fleets. (He does primarily direct his bits of the Rebellion from Dlan though.) IIRC, the one time it's tonnage is mentioned it matches that of a jump6 FSotSI design.

Of course YMMV.

I guess we can just agree to disagree. After reading your posts, I've come to realize we share precious little common ground. Hell, we even have different concepts of what the word 'command' entails.

We can continue to play the 'you say puh-tay-toe, I say puh-taht-toe' game, but nothing much will come of it.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Hell, we even have different concepts of what the word 'command' entails.

I don't think so. I just don't see the Archduke as a military commander. YTUMV.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Tobias:
I don't think so. I just don't see the Archduke as a military commander.

Tobias,

Neither do I.

I do see him as someone who commands the military though.

Besides, there were other examples in your posts of the 'disconnect' I see between our two world views. Thats was just the one I chose to illustrate my point.

As I said, let's just agree to disagree.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So having a single stateroom on your own yacht is quite luxurious.

(stare)

an archduke will have enough money in his office budget to buy a pair of 100,000 dton yachts without blinking - if he doesn't inherit them from a previous archduke.

the scale at which you guys are operating ... is just inadequate. </font>[/QUOTE]The Scale I am talking about is right out of the Official rules. Where is your office budget for a Duke or ArchDuke coming from? I know where it comes from IMTU, but since there is so much money flowing, what is your source of income for your Archduke?

IMTU Income to run the Duchy, Grandduchy, etc uses a fairly simple formula. It is based on the, I have been told decanonized, TCS ship building formula. Each citizen pays 5cr each (TL adjusted) per year as part of their taxes. How that money is actually collected is entirely up to the local planet. The Local Baron gets Cr2, the Count or Marquis gets Cr1 (If none then the Baron gets Cr2.5 and the Duke gets Cr1.5.) The Subsector Duke gets Cr1, the Archduke gets Cr0.5, and the Emperor gets Cr0.5. (If no Archduke then the Emperor gets Cr1) Note this money does not go to the Privy Purse. The Privy Purse draws from this sum, High Living based on the Social level of the Noble in question, plus gets to add any money from the Noble's personal holdings or income sources.

However there are no rules for this in any of the official rules that I have ever seen. (Though there were some interesting rules posted years ago in Dragon Magazine.)