• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Yacht: Jump-1 or Jump-4 ?

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Over the course of a 4 year term,
Bhoins, is your Americanism showing? I think most of these folks have (in one sense) all the time in the world to make their rounds. Most of these folks are going to be "for life" appointments, or hereditary positions, so you won't have to make the rounds in any kind of hurry.

Or, are you just looking at running an Archduke as a PC? ;)
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
It takes the MT rules to make a Jump-6 warship work.)
Not quite ;)

In CT second edition there is the jump 6, maneuver 6 cruiser...

1000t if you just want to fight, 2000t if you want space to do anything else ;)
 
Another thing:

Travel times. I doubt that, due to the minimum 3 month travel time to capital, that the Sector dukes of Deneb, the Marches, and Reft will be going to capital any more often than Coronations. It's kind of like the Governors General of the Brittish colonies of North America: each was at London when appointed, came over, and sent missives back. They couldn't afford to be that far for that long.

Likewise, if SOP is being regularly reevaluated, someone's not writing it well.

The SOP should be stable enough to survive the change/loss/disability of any duke or archduke. Realistically, it should only change when there is a change of power: A Sector Duke or Archduke changing will ripple down, but in general, it should be more stable than people give it credit for.

The Ducal yachts need to be big enough to carry a detail sufficient to protect... a dozen highly trained protection specialists, probably seconded from the Army or Marines, plus an elite ship crew, probably drawn from the Navy as an "Honor Detail", and a variety of household staff, say a secretary, Butler, housekeeper, religious advisor, 2-3 other specialists, and a translator or two. Maybe 2 dozen plus the crew. Plus any guests.

For a sector duke, J4 is a minimum (once available). For an Archduke, J6 is really essential.

For n-space ops, protection provided not by the ship (which will have some turrets, just in case), by by the ever present escort vessels.

A J4 liner really makes a better "Yacht" for a subsector or sector duke than does a warship... It has plenty of room, decent range, and is designed for comfort. take some of the cargo space away, and replace with turrets, possibly pop turrets. It blends in well, too, and won't attract unwanted notice until the call sign hits the displays...


If he's going to the front, he can just commandeer a cruiser.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:

Likewise, if SOP is being regularly reevaluated, someone's not writing it well.

The SOP should be stable enough to survive the change/loss/disability of any duke or archduke. Realistically, it should only change when there is a change of power: A Sector Duke or Archduke changing will ripple down, but in general, it should be more stable than people give it credit for.
Hmmm...you know, it could matter a lot when this discussion is taking place.

Prior to the Strephonic reforms that actually gave the Archdukes some power back, their directives/SOP/decrees probably didn't have to be revised all that often. Other than deciding who's going to be a baronet and what the social calendar is, it doesn't sound like an Archduke would have that much to do.

On the other hand, if we're talking about after the reforms, when the Archdukes are expected to actually govern in some fashion, that might change things. If they're expected to govern, and thus react in some way to events in their domains, and if we buy the assumption that they're travelling most of the time, then they need to have some kind of advisory/decision-making resources travelling with them. Otherwise, why not just appoint the Archduke's steward with the title?

Unless, of course, that's your vision of how the 3I works.
file_23.gif



The Ducal yachts need to be big enough to carry a detail sufficient to protect... a dozen highly trained protection specialists, probably seconded from the Army or Marines, plus an elite ship crew, probably drawn from the Navy as an "Honor Detail", and a variety of household staff, say a secretary, Butler, housekeeper, religious advisor, 2-3 other specialists, and a translator or two. Maybe 2 dozen plus the crew. Plus any guests.
Sounds like a good outline. I'd add three notes, which you may or may not agree with:

1) I'd assume that any protective detail aboard would be drawn from the noble's Huscarles.

2) Increase the "other specialists" to be something more of a staff, in accordance with my notes above.

3) Any guests aboard are likely to be nobles themselves, and bring their own retinues.

Call it, maybe, three dozen, plus crew, plus again as many just in case you have to take a lot of guests?

Even so...what you're saying makes sense. The ship will probably be smaller than I thought...maybe in the 2000-2500 ton range? Anyone with a better grasp of HG care to guess how big a J6 ship with around 75 passengers would have to be?
 
Originally posted by ChaserCaffey:
Even so...what you're saying makes sense. The ship will probably be smaller than I thought...maybe in the 2000-2500 ton range? Anyone with a better grasp of HG care to guess how big a J6 ship with around 75 passengers would have to be?
Around 5000 tons. Note that this is because of the J-6, and you still have only 2Gs. You simply can't build a J-6 ship that is much more than a courier.
As a noble, I would normally prefer a J-4 ship with some more Gs. If you travel in your domain, you are probably not gonna utilize J-6 very often anyway, and the extra Gs cut a lot of time in making planetfall.
Of course, an archduke would have several ships to choose for different tasks. Or maybe even a jumpship/dropship type of setup.

Regards,

Tobias
 
Anyone with a better grasp of HG care to guess how big a J6 ship with around 75 passengers would have to be?
well, that will depend on what else you want it to do. does that 75 include crew? stewards? valets? sycophants? beauty specialists? how about maneuver 6? agility 6? nuke damper screen 9? meson screen 9? ship's troops, how many? gigs? ship's boats? lifeboats? guests? self-repair facilities? cargo? command center? weapons? ambassadorial reception facilities? giant kitchen catering to everyone's whims? fuel purifier? the biggest computer available? J6 messenger capability? binky two dton cabins for everyone, or fifty dton archducal royal suites and forty dton oridnary suites for all the hangers-on? hospital?

20k dtons, minimum.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
well, that will depend on what else you want it to do. does that 75 include crew? stewards? valets? sycophants? beauty specialists? how about maneuver 6? agility 6? nuke damper screen 9? meson screen 9? ship's troops, how many? gigs? ship's boats? lifeboats? guests? self-repair facilities? cargo? command center? weapons? ambassadorial reception facilities? giant kitchen catering to everyone's whims? fuel purifier? the biggest computer available? J6 messenger capability? binky two dton cabins for everyone, or fifty dton archducal royal suites and forty dton oridnary suites for all the hangers-on?

20k dtons, minimum.
I suppose that's what I get for asking a question like that. :D

Anyone know if designs from FF&S with thruster plates come out in the same range, or would I have to break down and get the HG rules to pursue this further? This is starting to get interesting...
 
... or would I have to break down and get the HG rules to pursue this further?
it's not too hard. J6 is 7%, j fuel is 60%, the power plant will be 6% minimum with 6% power plant fuel, the bridge is 2%, the fuel purifier will be about 1%, crew will be about 4%, ship's cargo should be at least 1%. to that add the maneuver drive you want the ship to have - 2% for m1, 5% for m2, 8% for m3, 11% for m4, 14% for m5, 17% for m6. add all that up, and then subtract it from 100%. now just figure out the dtonnage of everything you want to add to that (like computer, screens, non-crew staterooms, etc), divide the ammenities dtonnage by the remainder percentage, and that will be the approximate dtonnage of the ship.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
well, that will depend on what else you want it to do. does that 75 include crew? stewards? valets? sycophants? beauty specialists?
There are rules for including stewards in the crew. I'd use these. And I do not have such a negative picture of nobles as pampered sissies who carry around professional sycophants.

how about maneuver 6? agility 6?
Impossible for a J-6 ship, unless you use the "2000-ton Book2 Sneak". Agility 6, combined with screens or weapons, is especially impossible.

nuke damper screen 9? meson screen 9?
Trivial, since you have low M-Drive but high PP, these are not energy hogs.

ship's troops, how many?
A dozen was part of the specification.

gigs? ship's boats? lifeboats?
Yes. Several? What for?

Were included in the original specs.

self-repair facilities?
No rules for these exist.

Every ship has some cargo space. But large amounts? What for?

command center? weapons?
This ship is explicitly not a military command vessel.

ambassadorial reception facilities?
If the Archduke comes to visit, I would expect him to get a reception on the planet.

giant kitchen catering to everyone's whims?
Such things are generally included in the stateroom tonnages.

fuel purifier? the biggest computer available?
Of course.

J6 messenger capability?
What do you mean by that?

binky two dton cabins for everyone,
No, since passengers require full staterooms. For the big man himself, a double-stateroom owner's suite as in the original yacht is appropriate.

Regards,

Tobias
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />For the big man himself, a double-stateroom owner's suite as in the original yacht is appropriate.
for an archduke? </font>[/QUOTE]Unless he is one of the aforementioned pampered sissies, yes.
file_23.gif


Regards,

Tobias
 
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />For the big man himself, a double-stateroom owner's suite as in the original yacht is appropriate.
for an archduke?</font>[/QUOTE]Unless he is one of the aforementioned pampered sissies, yes.</font>[/QUOTE]I think we have a conceptual problem here. a personal representative of the emperor in charge of thousands of naval warships and thousands of worlds is not going to live in a double-cabin like some kind of high passenger. two decks of a tigress, maybe.

as for pampering, it's not. humans judge by appearances. any archduke in charge of, and collecting taxes from, two thousand worlds is going to retain a herd of beauticians, stylists, clothiers, orationists, posturists, protocol experts, choreographers, directors, stagehands, interior decorators, and whoever else it takes to make absolutely sure he and everything and everyone around him look and behave absolutely perfect any time there might be an audience. people laugh at tony blair's $3000 makeup and john kerry's $100 haircuts, but it's just part of what it takes to exercise power.
 
Something else to bear in mind are the aforementioned noble guests. If there are any, they need to be provided with better quarters than the ship's crew and other passengers, as befits their status. And clearly, the Archduke has to be seen as living better than them- maybe four or five double suits for nobles, and a triple or better for the big shot?

Hmmm, I didn't think about the more personal parts of the entourage when I was doing my figures- I figured two dozen for a decent staff/travelling cabinet for the big guy. The numbers start creeping back up...
 
... maybe four or five double suits for nobles, and a triple or better for the big shot?
(smile) wives? concubines? mistresses? multiples thereof? children? tutors? personal confessors/priests/seers? protegés? pets? associated staff? mothers-in-law? luggage?

[qbThe numbers start creeping back up... [/QB]
(laugh)
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
I think we have a conceptual problem here. a personal representative of the emperor in charge of thousands of naval warships and thousands of worlds is not going to live in a double-cabin like some kind of high passenger.
Why not? A double-cabin is considered pretty luxurious already.

people laugh at tony blair's $3000 makeup and john kerry's $100 haircuts, but it's just part of what it takes to exercise power.
1. Archdukes don't need to run election campaigns.
2. Archdukes don't "rule" by live TV. They don't need to either.
See, when I have Traveller nobles in my mind, I draw more analogies to rulers of old than to today's politicians. While it is a cliche that high nobles were spending ridiculous amounts on appearance and were keeping large retinues of sycophants, that was not necessarily the case. Some lived downright spartanic lives, and this is maybe a form of PR in its own right.
IMTU, there will be nobles who require all the pomp they can get, and there will be those who make a point of minimizing it. In any case, there won't be nowaday's "TV politicians".

Regards,

Tobias
 
Why not? A double-cabin is considered pretty luxurious already.
I find this lack of perspective disturbing.

I served onboard an aircraft carrier. the ship's captain had quarters about twice the size of a traveller double-cabin. I think an archduke's living quarters would be proportionally larger.
I draw more analogies to rulers of old than to today's politicians.
very well. consider louis XIV with tech 15 and an annual personal budget of 100,000MCr.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
I find this lack of perspective disturbing.
I find a lack of openness... well regrettable at most. It takes a lot more to disturb me.

I served onboard an aircraft carrier. the ship's captain had quarters about twice the size of a traveller double-cabin. I think an archduke's living quarters would be proportionally larger.
And on other ships, the captain has far smaller quarters. Not to even speak of submarines which are IMHO a better analogy. This doesn't necessarily diminish him nor does it prevent him from working properly.
An Archduke or a Duke can choose quite freely how his personal quarters are to be arranged. Some may opt for spartan arrangements.

very well. consider louis XIV with tech 15 and an annual personal budget of 100,000MCr.
That's one example, which fits the "all the pomp he can get" extreme. Though of course, his massive spendings fullfilled a political aim which is not present for a Traveller Archduke, but this leads too far here.
Consider, OTOH, Frederick the Great, who campaigned under spartan conditions for most of his live, whose peacetime living quarters were quite moderately sized (Sanssouci may look large on the outside, but inside, there is not that much living and working space) and who was so chintzy about his clothing that at the time of his death, a servant had to lend a presentable shirt for the funeral.
I'm not saying that no noble will have a large, 10+kton luxury liner as his yacht. I am just saying that not all will.

Regards,

Tobias
 
On the matter of cabins

The Arduke takes a double
His batman and butler (not always the same thing) each get singles.

This is the suite.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">+-------+---------+
| | |
| | |
| | |
+----+XX+ |
| X |
+----+ |
| X |
+----+----------XX+</pre>[/QUOTE]This is a 6x9m suite (4x6 squares, 12Td), with walls to the half-meter sub-grid.
The two personal servants get the 2m x 1.5m rooms, the larger 3.5x3m room is the ducal bedroom, the remainder is sitting and office space. the upper nook can become an office with wall if needed.

This is a very good way to combine their personal spaces into a larger than expected suite, while still only giving the duke a "suite" bigger than "Just 2 SR".

Also, the ducal suite uses probably 6 of it's 8 Dtons in-suite, whereas many SR use only 2 of 4. If the two attached rooms do likewise, we get 12dtons for 3 people, plus 4 dtons for common spaces. Which, it just happens, gives us the above suite.

Also, many people live 3-4 persons in a space 3x3x20 (60' mobile home, single wide), this is only 7 Dtons of space. So giving 12 to 3 people is no big stretch.

Now, lets assume a wife, with one extra servant, adding only 2 SR to the above mix, for 6 extra Td in suite.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">+-------+-----+----+-------+
| His | FR | LW | Hers |
| +--xx-+-xx-+ |
| X X |
+-------+ +-------+
| BM X X x
+----+ | Ofc |
| BU X | |
+----+-------------+-------+</pre>[/QUOTE]the FR is an in-unit fresher, roughly 1.5x3m, or about 5'x10'.

This unit generates only 6Td worth of commons, holds a noble and his wife, and three servants, in 6 SR. Entry is through the office.

These have more space than my home... and are just createve uses of extant SR space into suites.
 
Okay. With what Aramis said in mind, let's see if we can figure out how many people we want to carry on this thing, and in what kind of style. I have a feeling that's going to drive the rest of the ship.

- The Archduke in his own suite, with family (if any), mistresses (if any), and personal servants(butler/batman). 6 SR worth of space looks pretty good, as detailed above.

- Noble guests. Will probably be Sector or subsector Dukes if they're taking an extended trip rather than meeting the Archduke along his progress, as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Perhaps they could be accomidated in the smaller suite Aramis proposed? How many of those do we want- would three be a good number? If so, figure three guests, plus two servants each.

- Planning staff for the Archduke. A small "cabinet" or privy council to help make the policy decisions that do need to be made at that level. Say 12 people, just to pick a number, with most in singles but, for the sake of argument, the most senior three demand their own double rooms as a show of status. (These may very well, after all, be minor nobles in their own right)

- Personal servants/mistresses/hangers-on to the Archduke. This is the toughest to estimate, and it's going to vary widely between personalities. Anyone want to peg this? Probably sleeping in single rooms, or two to a double

- Bodyguards. For the sake of argument, twelve of the Archduke's toughest, roughest Huscarles, although if the ship ends up being particularly large more may be needed. Space should probably be allocated for battle dress and the like for them. Barracks-style arrangements for them.

Anyone want to add to the list?
 
Back
Top