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You've sunk my battleship!

san*klass

SOC-12
Just a few musings about the way that the various Frontier Wars were fought in the SM.
Given that communications and sensors are sublight, that means that interception of an atracking force can only be carried out by a garrison force already in that system. Since there must be a limited number of trained crew and ships, some measure of the (oxymoronic) Millitary Intelligence must be in play, combined with Gas Giant refueling availability? Also once a system is attacked and conquered, the soonest any help can arrive is two weeks (which presumably weakens another systems garrison).
All in all quite a sedate and strategic way to conduct a war??
 
Since most 3I systems are low tech and low pop without any bases or a good starport, the cold fact is that in war most aren't worth protecting. You do want a few token warships in-system, if only to immediately jump out and notify higher command.
 
Since most 3I systems are low tech and low pop without any bases or a good starport, the cold fact is that in war most aren't worth protecting. You do want a few token warships in-system, if only to immediately jump out and notify higher command.

Especially important in keeping track of where invading forces are, their strength & composition & disposition, and their efforts to possibly hold refuelling points.
 
You've played the FFW boardgame?

What you outline is a core part of what makes the game interesting - with the added wrinkle that in-game fleets have admirals who have different "planning ratings". The planning ratings determine the number of weeks in advance you must plot their intended movement objectives. A good admiral like Aledon doesn't have to plot far in advance at all, whereas a poor admiral (or no admiral) has to plot three weeks or more in advance.
 
FFW still suffers from 'god mode'

The player can see the game board and have an idea what his opponent may be plotting.

To get a better model you need to play FFW with three game boards, one for each player and one for the referee. The players should write orders for fleet admirals similar to Striker and info from events should be made available at the speed of fleet couriers.

A sector admiralty suffers from months long communication lag.
 
No I've never played FFW, I was just brainstorming how (as GM) I would run a campaign set during a FW (the 4th "False" FW in particular is especially interesting to me). Defence would need to be in depth and the destination of ships jumping out could only be presumed by known, or projected, Jump range and the importance and refueling opportunity of the various destinations.
Also, but slightly off topic, what is the answer to the Battle of Two Suns incident at the end if the 4th FW? Calibration point dead space Jumping (not too sure if that is CT canon?) or a secret Zhod base on a rogue planet/Brown Dwarf???
 
FFW still suffers from 'god mode'

The player can see the game board and have an idea what his opponent may be plotting.

To get a better model you need to play FFW with three game boards, one for each player and one for the referee. The players should write orders for fleet admirals similar to Striker and info from events should be made available at the speed of fleet couriers.

A sector admiralty suffers from months long communication lag.

...or one of the best mechanisms I saw in a board wargame - the dummy counters used in Assault. Knowing that the counters out there mostly represent the position of enemy forces, but that a number (varying depending on intell being provided) were false or dummy, it made that game early on in each encounter. Each player had to do their own appreciation of the ground (space?) and enemy activity
 
I use dummy counters in my operational system scale HG variant - stole it from Star Cruiser originally.

Never thought of trying dummy counters in FFW, hmm...
 
FFW still suffers from 'god mode'

The player can see the game board and have an idea what his opponent may be plotting.

To get a better model you need to play FFW with three game boards, one for each player and one for the referee. The players should write orders for fleet admirals similar to Striker and info from events should be made available at the speed of fleet couriers.

A sector admiralty suffers from months long communication lag.

Of course you're correct - this is a flaw of most board wargames (except those with blocks that stand up and can be arranged so only their commander sitting on one side of the board can see them).

That said, I do wonder if you're ignoring the points made earlier in this thread around the propensity of free traders, lone picket vessels and other such craft to jump outsystem with information about an enemy fleet arriving. All these "alarm mechanisms" are below the scale of a game like FFW. Certainly the warning might be delayed, but I wonder if the full double-blind system you describe does not exaggerate the limited information available to commanders. The "planning factor" for admirals in FFW to me seems a reasonable compromise at preventing the "god like" player from instantly reacting to enemy movements.

And, I dare say that admirals in the OTU would (like their counterparts from the Age of Sail when communication was limited to the speed of travel) have rather more leeway and licence to react autonomously to isolated intel reports of enemy movements without reference back to some centralised authority.
 
No, I'm not ignoring it, I am assuming the IN uses jump 6 couriers to get information to sector admirals ASAP. :)

If you are waiting for jump 1 or jump 2 traders to carry intel things are even worse. :eek:

I agree with you that a fleet admiral will have to have great leeway to conduct the campaign as they see fit, That;s why I suggested writing orders a bit like Striker.
 
Of course you're correct - this is a flaw of most board wargames (except those with blocks that stand up and can be arranged so only their commander sitting on one side of the board can see them).

Even that doesn't produce sufficient blind for realistic handling of the xFWs.
 
439 systems in the Marches, 271 Imperial, 26 client states, 69 non-Aligned, the two Droyne worlds, and so forth. Have the Scout Service station a number of scout ships hidden in interplanetary space in each system, varying jumps up to jump-6 to reach each system within 6 parsec, one or two extras for each so while one is outbound the others are there to continue monitoring. Have them monitor the system's worlds from deep space for jump flash. Maybe set satellites around the various worlds in a system to send the scouts more detailed information on anyone who jumps in, or maybe use fighters for that, or ground-based listening posts using neutrino sensors and meson communicators to signal the scouts in deep space. When a fleet jumps in, one scout jumps to each of the neighboring systems within 6 parsecs, passes the information to the scouts monitoring that system, refuels from a tanker stationed with the system's scout squadron, jumps back to return to its station, while scouts jump out to each of the systems within 6 parsecs of the system it's leaving.

Information expands outward like ripples in a pond, and an Imperial fleet passing through any given friendly system has 1-week-old intelligence on the systems within 6 parsecs, 2-week-old intelligence on systems from 7 to 12 parsecs, etc. It'll take a lot of little ships to ensure a system is covered with enough spare to continue monitoring while the outbound ships are heading out and coming back, but the whole network would cost less than the price of a single dreadnought squadron. Not perfect, but good enough for a fleet to have a fighting chance at figuring out where the enemy fleets are likely to be and where they're likely to be going.
 
Well, the strategic problem of dealing with lag is a singular passion of mine.

It's straightforward to computerize this to make a double blind system, where your role is as that Supreme Commander, and sending orders out to the fleets.

The problem becomes a matter of how to model the autonomy of the fleets themselves (without introducing live fleet admirals).

There's also an issue of strategic goals. "The dog can chase the car, what do they do when they catch it?"

I think reduction of the worlds is a bit extreme, but then you have garrison issues during conquest and such. Without tangible goals, it's hard to model activity.

But the idea of taking FFW, using it's VCs (whatever they are, I haven't looked at it in some time), combined with some automatic combat rules, to where the fleets fight automatically when they show up with rules as to whether to engage or stay etc.

Thus making it a more tangible model a double blind, single player game. See how it changes.
 
The problem becomes a matter of how to model the autonomy of the fleets themselves (without introducing live fleet admirals).

We did a play by mail of Federation and Empire. and added Loyalty, Morale, and Independence stats to model these properties.

There's also an issue of strategic goals. "The dog can chase the car, what do they do when they catch it?"

For F&E, that answer is obvious. As it should nearly be in a blind strategic game. Those things that aren't clear (or rather those things you want expressly crystal clear) should be defined in the op orders issued to each admiral, the more disloyal or weak moraled, the more restrictive the orders need to be.
 
And, I dare say that admirals in the OTU would (like their counterparts from the Age of Sail when communication was limited to the speed of travel) have rather more leeway and licence to react autonomously to isolated intel reports of enemy movements without reference back to some centralised authority.


its worth noting that, During the build up to Trafalgar, Nelson, without reference to higher command, took his fleet all the way from Spain to the Caribbean and back, and was not considered to be overstepping his authority.

Orders were drafted in only the most general of terms, with most of the decision making powers delegated to the commanders on the spot to "act as they saw fit" or "As the situation dictates".

so, yhea, hell of a lot of leeway.
 
We did a play by mail of Federation and Empire. and added Loyalty, Morale, and Independence stats to model these properties.

That's not quite what I mean.

The premise is a computer program where you act as Supreme Commander and send out your units. A simple problem is say you send a fleet out to some remote system. As soon as they arrive, they'll send back "we're here, now what?". And, until then, they pretty much garrison the system.

The return message takes several weeks to reach you, you reply, which, again, takes several weeks to head back to the fleet. Clearly, at some point, it's simply not practical to manage at this scale. Which means the fleets need some kind of autonomy to prosecute the war. But if that autonomy is delegated to you, the player, then the "blind" nature of the game falls flat.

So, it's a bit of a trick.

Now, if you had "Lots of players", then having "Fleet Admiral" players might be interesting. 4 players per side, each with their fleets (so completely autonomous fleets) but having to deal with the communication issues of trying to sync up with their other commanders. In that case, you don't necessarily have a "Supreme Commander", rather you just have a very laggy, imperfect communication system that ROUTES through "the capitol", or whatever. So, if you want to send a message to another commander, you either know where they are -- and send it, or you dispatch to command, and they send it (increasing the lag).

Each Admiral will have fleet elements that can be detached (like garrisons as the fleet advances). And, still, you have the same autonomy problems. If you leave a detachment 3 or 4 jumps behind, what are their orders. So, in the end, is that any different from the Supreme Commander version?

Add in the a finite supply of courier ships to send messages, as well as a possibility of losing a courier ship (for example, unexplained failure -- ship just never comes back out of jump), and that can get interesting.

For F&E, that answer is obvious. As it should nearly be in a blind strategic game. Those things that aren't clear (or rather those things you want expressly crystal clear) should be defined in the op orders issued to each admiral, the more disloyal or weak moraled, the more restrictive the orders need to be.

Well it's not really obvious. I mean, in a game "scorched earth" with no consequences is always an option. But, I don't think that would sit well in general. Glassing planets is never received well. Nor do we have a clear take on how long that takes.

Simply, if a war fleet has system domination, can it reduce any ship building/repair capacity in a single week? Is that practical? Can such capacity be repaired? And how long does that take? How long would it take to glass a planet? And that brings up all sorts of ugly details about supply. "Need more nukes, hit 3 planets so far -- running low!"

I haven't read the VC for the FFW board game, but what were the Zho aims and war objectives? Because one thing we have learned from the Rebellion, and simple truth if you look at most any of the mechanisms around ship building and what not, wars are VERY expensive. Destroyed ships have to be replaced out of inventory, they're not coming back via manufacture, not for some time (like 150 weekly turns). So, the forces that go all out can exhaust themselves quite quickly. This is what brought on the stalemates during the Rebellion.
 
Now, if you had "Lots of players", then having "Fleet Admiral" players might be interesting. 4 players per side, each with their fleets (so completely autonomous fleets) but having to deal with the communication issues of trying to sync up with their other commanders.

interesting enough actually to play it? after all the game's been out for 40 years now ....

Destroyed ships have to be replaced out of inventory, they're not coming back via manufacture, not for some time (like 150 weekly turns).

maybe you could have a giant drive-through "maker" ....
 
You have troop rotation, so that new units arrive regularly, and replace depleted ones, unless they were destroyed or a sudden surge of enemy activity requires maintaining them at the front.
 
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