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What If...Traveller

kafka47

SOC-14 5K
Marquis
Following from my previous thread (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=19219)...Traveller never really played the What If scenario other than a little at the back of Interstellar Wars?

1. What If the Zhodani were expansionist?
2. What If the Lords of Thunder managed to orchestrate a coup d'etait against the main 2000 Worlds?
3. What If the Third Imperium was strangled at birth by the pirates that plagued it?
4. What If the ROM never fell and reformed itself?
5. What If the Ancients never existed?
6. What if Stephon shot back and killed Dullinor?
7. What if Dulinor had succeeded in killing the entire bloodline and remained on Capital?
8. What if the Regency embraced the Virus, as did the RC?
9. What if there was a massive alien threat from the Core that would be stronger than all the major races and virus combined?
10. What if Grandfather lost the Final War?
 
9. What if there was a massive alien threat from the Core that would be stronger than all the major races and virus combined?

I would like to see the six major races form a heterogenous coalition... with the different races taking on various specialties....

Set it 20,000 years into the future... past the TNE timeline...
 
I would like to see the six major races form a heterogenous coalition... with the different races taking on various specialties....

Set it 20,000 years into the future... past the TNE timeline...


Jeff I like my 3rd Imperium as is unchanged in 1110, firmly rooted in reality. Keep your ideas to yourself...20,000 years...you think this is Sci-Fi or something...whippersnapper!
 
Following from my previous thread (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=19219)...Traveller never really played the What If scenario other than a little at the back of Interstellar Wars?

1. What If the Zhodani were expansionist?
They are, they just expand in a different direction.

2. What If the Lords of Thunder managed to orchestrate a coup d'etait against the main 2000 Worlds?
HUH? (sigh)

3. What If the Third Imperium was strangled at birth by the pirates that plagued it?
We'd have never heard of it and Solomani would rule over all sub-human and in-human alike, as nature intended.

4. What If the ROM never fell and reformed itself?
See #3. Only thankfully probably never mutate into Space Nazi's.

5. What If the Ancients never existed?
GDW would have designed a Bulge game instead.

6. What if Stephon shot back and killed Dullinor?
How about his guards shooting back, were they all out to lunch?

7. What if Dulinor had succeeded in killing the entire bloodline and remained on Capital?
New Emperor, no stupid MT.

8. What if the Regency embraced the Virus, as did the RC?
TRAV would have been on trash heap of history.

9. What if there was a massive alien threat from the Core that would be stronger than all the major races and virus combined?
The MR would exterminate each other for the honor of losing to it. Fortunately noble eartch scientist would invent (inset technobabble here) and destroy it. PRESS RESET

10. What if Grandfather lost the Final War?
Loren Wiseman would introduce miniature Ancients to compete with British WRG Ancient rule sets. GDW stays in business.
 
Jeff I like my 3rd Imperium as is unchanged in 1110, firmly rooted in reality. Keep your ideas to yourself...20,000 years...you think this is Sci-Fi or something...whippersnapper!

What... you don't want to play in a Galactic Empire with J-36 drives...?
 
Kafka47,

I'll play!

1. What If the Zhodani were expansionist?

They are, and they really expanded in contrast to the Third Imperium. The Zhos expanded into virgin territory. Except for a few border areas, the Imperium merely expanded into regions settled by two previous empires.

As pragmatists, the Zhos reached a size they felt they could control easily and have since channeled all their wanderlust down the Core Route.

2. What If the Lords of Thunder managed to orchestrate a coup d'etait against the main 2000 Worlds?

Immediate genocidal war against the minor and major races along the 2000 Worlds' borders followed by a genocidal "crusade" against the K'Kree involving all the minor and major races along the 2000 Worlds' borders.

3. What If the Third Imperium was strangled at birth by the pirates that plagued it?

Another polity claiming descent from the earlier Imperiums would have eventually arose in it's place. Seeing as the 3I had at least two large and dangerous rivals during it's infancy, the Chanestins and Antilles, this "delayed" 3I would have faced more and larger rivals.

4. What If the ROM never fell and reformed itself?

All polities disappear eventually, either by "falling" or reforming beyond recognition. The ROM could lasted longer by reforms, abandonment of territory, or other methods. An interesting take would have a smaller "rump" ROM still in existence when the 3I appears on the scene.

5. What If the Ancients never existed?

Jeff Zeitlin has a project based on this idea called, IIRC, Mileau:5641. The only major race are Humaniti, K'Kree, and Hivers. No Zhos or Vilani or HMRs transplanted from Earth, no Vargr uplift, and no Aslan because their 3rd World War was going to be suicidal before TNS Pathfinder arrived.

6. What if Stephon shot back and killed Dullinor?

GURPS:Traveller

7. What if Dulinor had succeeded in killing the entire bloodline and remained on Capital?

Interesting Times. Emperor Dulinor would still have a war on the Rim to deal with plus an angry large Aslan clan whose ambassador was killed. These foreign wars, oddly enough, would help Dulinor solidify his rule.

8. What if the Regency embraced the Virus, as did the RC?

Given their industrial power and embrace of psionics, the Regency would be the predominant power in Chartered Space...

... until the political fault lines in the Regency fractured.

9. What if there was a massive alien threat from the Core that would be stronger than all the major races and virus combined?

Baddies from the Core? Wipe the slate clean, jump forward a few thousand years, and begin again.

10. What if Grandfather lost the Final War?

See #5. Yaskodray's kids and grandkids would all eventually either kill each other off or go into hiding. What few Dryone survive may not receive the various helpful visits they did in the OTL and there will be fewer surviving HMRs due to the additional fighting.


Regards,
Bill
 
Bill (and others), as always insightful comments but not sure if I would agree with all of them and as you are willing to play along...maybe I can clarify things and we can play further...

:1. What If the Zhodani were expansionist? They are, and they really expanded in contrast to the Third Imperium. The Zhos expanded into virgin territory. Except for a few border areas, the Imperium merely expanded into regions settled by two previous empires.

As pragmatists, the Zhos reached a size they felt they could control easily and have since channeled all their wanderlust down the Core Route.

What I meant here was expansionist in a big way. True, we have major Core Expeditions but expansionist in all directions including Rimward provoking a direct Imperial-Zhodani confrontation. If memory serves me right, the Zhodani were ahead of the Imperium for a spell technologically and also have the advantage of a much more even spread...thus allowing for salami tactics combined with the advantages of the Rift. I could easily see with their Vargr allies pinching off the supply routes in Corridor becoming a juggernaut force in the Marches toeing with the Aslan (perhaps even forming an alliance), as the oldest human galactic civilization such an alliance could squeeze the Imperium from the flanks.

2. What If the Lords of Thunder managed to orchestrate a coup d'etait against the main 2000 Worlds? Immediate genocidal war against the minor and major races along the 2000 Worlds' borders followed by a genocidal "crusade" against the K'Kree involving all the minor and major races along the 2000 Worlds' borders.

Could the Lords of Thunder really shake up K'kree conservatism. For such a crusade to take place...it would have to involve alot of otherwise pastural K'kree which is what have kept the Lords in place until now. Also, it would have the K'kree overcome their claustrophobia (which I could never understand...anyone with wide vistas of the universe are not likely feel hemmed in or maybe it is just me who envisions all those stars and ultimately planets as something that I would need to see and feel whole. Yes, I know, it is there spacecraft and vaccsuits that they have an adversion to...but surely the LoT might be trying to geneer that out of the K'kree genome. I see them as Provolutionists with a mission other than Anarchy.

3. What If the Third Imperium was strangled at birth by the pirates that plagued it? Another polity claiming descent from the earlier Imperiums would have eventually arose in it's place. Seeing as the 3I had at least two large and dangerous rivals during it's infancy, the Chanestins and Antilles, this "delayed" 3I would have faced more and larger rivals.

So the rise of the Imperium was just a natural precipation. I don't know...I don't see some parts of the world ever left the Hobbesan "State of Nature" that dominated the Long Night/Dark Ages. There is no reason to believe that something more sinister could have not taken hold.

4. What If the ROM never fell and reformed itself? All polities disappear eventually, either by "falling" or reforming beyond recognition. The ROM could lasted longer by reforms, abandonment of territory, or other methods. An interesting take would have a smaller "rump" ROM still in existence when the 3I appears on the scene.

Interesting indeed. Let's explore that further.

5. What If the Ancients never existed? Jeff Zeitlin has a project based on this idea called, IIRC, Mileau:5641. The only major race are Humaniti, K'Kree, and Hivers. No Zhos or Vilani or HMRs transplanted from Earth, no Vargr uplift, and no Aslan because their 3rd World War was going to be suicidal before TNS Pathfinder arrived.
I will have to read up on Jeff's work. But, essentially, I would have seen the Traveller Universe move and become more like 2320AD. It would present a sort of Terran domination but also allow enough time for other Minor Races to become major. The question is Who? And, what impact would that have on the Terrans with their somewhat inferior Jump Drive...for the IW provided the catalyst for the improvement of Jump for Terra. If they had become complacent and satisfied themselves also with J-2 eventually...they would come across another J-2 Empire. Would they retreat...would they fight. Would expansion neccessarily be Coreward...which was the inscentative in IW - to take Vland...take the Ancients out...new possibilities remain.
6. What if Stephon shot back and killed Dullinor? GURPS:Traveller

This is where I disagree with all of you. GT is more than removing Dulinor from the equation. Surely such an attempt would also have ripples across the nobility. I see it more of a prelude of a powerplay that would have many more dissatisfied players in the Moot quietly plotting the overthrow of the tyrant Stephon.

GT was more how can we recreate CT with what we know with MT. So, we also know from MT the Imperium was a much more fractured entity and the faultlines were only exposed with Dulinor's cowardice.

What if Dulinor had succeeded in killing the entire bloodline and remained on Capital? Interesting Times. Emperor Dulinor would still have a war on the Rim to deal with plus an angry large Aslan clan whose ambassador was killed. These foreign wars, oddly enough, would help Dulinor solidify his rule.

Now this is interesting. Would he also try to institute his reforms in the midst of war. War on the Rim...Solomani Civil War or just angry Aslan. I would also see a play like Julius Caesar being applicatible here. With factions of the nobility taking the role of Marc Anthony. Here would lie Dulinor's tragedy...supress the dissidents and thereby undermine your reforms...or allow the dissidents to formulate open/quiet rebellion against your rule thereby undermining the chances of success of your reforms taking hold.

8. What if the Regency embraced the Virus, as did the RC? Given their industrial power and embrace of psionics, the Regency would be the predominant power in Chartered Space...

... until the political fault lines in the Regency fractured.

The Regency...the backwoods power from the Marches become the predominant power in Chartered Space...now that is interesting. I see that as the same problem as the expansionist Zhodani. Could such a power move out of the corner created by stellar geography and become great? I guess the precident would be the United States upon entry in WW1 becoming a great power after consolidating things in the Americas...

What if there was a massive alien threat from the Core that would be stronger than all the major races and virus combined? Baddies from the Core? Wipe the slate clean, jump forward a few thousand years, and begin again.

Cope out answer. Not sure, if Baddies from the Core...assuming the premoridals are interested in conquest. Could we see a Grand Alliance as we did with the Dominate but at the same time, that would not be take into account the strength factor. As the Black Imperium and Dominate were already worn out by the time it came to fight. Also, it is much easier to encircle the Black Imperium/Dominate then it would be an Enemy moving across such a broad front and from an unknown point of origin.

10. What if Grandfather lost the Final War? See #5. Yaskodray's kids and grandkids would all eventually either kill each other off or go into hiding. What few Dryone survive may not receive the various helpful visits they did in the OTL and there will be fewer surviving HMRs due to the additional fighting.

OTL & HMR? What are those. My scenario imagined a quick victory by the kids and ruthless suppression of the Grandfather faction.
 
1) I knew what you meant, you just happen to be wrong. The Zho are expansionist not militant. The question should have been suppose the Zho were expansionist militarists. I apologize for sounding petty but words have meaning, you used wrong words.

2) Ignoring K'Kree I again avoid question

3) If 50 people answer this question none are wrong, pure conjecture.

4) Same as three so lets explore away1

5) Personally I don't buy the Pathfinder story. Florian history indicates Aslan in space in -2000, but of course canon shoots up and I seem to recall Pathfinder is one of the re-vised histories that causes Ranke's head to explode as it makes all previous canon lies.

6) When did Strephon become a tyrant? Why didn't his bodyguard kill Dulinor? In Ancient Rome you had to buy the Praetorian Guard, I don't remember the details though since I haven't read of the assassination since it happened.

7) I agree with Bill. Foreign Wars would buy him loyalty. Bigger question not mentioned is with no Civil War the real Strephon could return.

8) No comment as I quit TRAV over the MT rip-up and GT brought me back with Dulinor dead, dead, dead.

9) This is much like #3 it also lacks details. are we talking Tar Aiy'm Krang, the Vom, intelligent Reticulan Parasites, Borg, Organians on steroids, the Intellant virus? The nature of the threat would alter the MR's opinions, Some of these threats could play-off one race vs another, others just plain hostile to life itself.

10) Again like #3 multiple-outcomes, 50 opinions given, none are wrong.
 
6. What if Stephon shot back and killed Dullinor?

Kafka, this alternative is similar to the "wounded colossus" ATU on Freelance Traveller. The difference is that the assassination takes place as described, but the "real" Strephon acts faster and fights back against both Dulinor and Lucan. IIRC, Strephon returns to Capital relatively quickly to depose Lucan, then works in successive campaigns against Dulinor, then the Solomani, then the Vargr and Aslan, finally restoring the 3I, albeit a weakened one much in need of repair.

Although I'm using MT, I haven't yet decided if the assassination will take place IMTU. If it does, it will either follow your #6 or the "wounded colossus" timeline.
 
"So the rise of the Imperium was just a natural precipation."

Yes, at least according to the theory of history used by MWM and LW. History is not linear, it is cyclical. It is based generally on the ideas of Polybius, who argued that society cycled through six stages:

Anarchy is overcome by a single, strong, benificent leader, who establishes himself as a Prince.

Over time, the power of the office corrupts the Prince's successors, and they become Tyrants.

The elite of society rebel agaist the Tyrant, and establish an Aristocracy.

Over time, the Aritocracy becomes corrupted, and devolves into Oligarchy.

The oppression of the Oligarchs spurs a rebelion by the citizenry, who then establish a Democracy.

The Democracy devolves into Anarchy.... and the cycle starts all over again.

The MWM model for Traveller is a little simplified. An Empire is established, it grows stagnant and collapes, to be replaced eventually by a new Empire built on the foundations of the older Empire.

The Core is the "natural" center of the 3I because it has a large number of wealthy societies with a relatively high tech base to build on. The greater the presure on this group of systems, the quicker they will solidify, but eventually someone will come along to unify this community and begin the rebuilding of the interstellar empire.

Just my take.
 
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What I meant here was expansionist in a big way. True, we have major Core Expeditions but expansionist in all directions including Rimward provoking a direct Imperial-Zhodani confrontation.


Kafka47,

You'll have to change many, many things for that to happen.

The Consulate reached it's present size by choice roughly 1000 years before the Imperium was founded. They stopped at that time because the psionic Core Route map was deemed more important. Zho expansion was also very different from Imperial expansion. The Zhos moved into what was essentially "virgin" territory while the Imperium expanded into regions already settled by two previous empires.

If memory serves me right, the Zhodani were ahead of the Imperium for a spell technologically and also have the advantage of a much more even spread...

The Zhos already had jump3 by this -1000 IE period as Gvuurdon's Story in the Vargr AM states. They weren't already in what would be called the Marches or Deneb because they chose not to. They even allowed Vargr expansion up to certain point because what happened "over the border" was of little concern.

... thus allowing for salami tactics combined with the advantages of the Rift. I could easily see with their Vargr allies pinching off the supply routes in Corridor becoming a juggernaut force in the Marches toeing with the Aslan (perhaps even forming an alliance), as the oldest human galactic civilization such an alliance could squeeze the Imperium from the flanks.

Such an offensive would be a complete refutation of Zhos strategic thrinking for the last thousand years or more. The Zhos think the Consulate is already big enough. They interfere "over the border" to remove or diminish threats, not to add great swaths of territory. The Zhos might not have the type of border they want with the Imperium but, after relatively minimal effort over 500 years, they have a much better one then they did in 624.

The 'Behind the Claw" region is a strategic incubus for the Imperium. The only reason the Imperium is in the region is that the deal which brought Vland into the Imperium committed the Imperium to setting the Imperial-Consulate border as far spinward as possible. Letting the Imperium expend blood and treasure keeping a relatively worthless spinward salient actually helps the Consulate.

Could the Lords of Thunder really shake up K'kree conservatism. For such a crusade to take place...it would have to involve alot of otherwise pastural K'kree which is what have kept the Lords in place until now. Also, it would have the K'kree overcome their claustrophobia (which I could never understand...anyone with wide vistas of the universe are not likely feel hemmed in or maybe it is just me who envisions all those stars and ultimately planets as something that I would need to see and feel whole. Yes, I know, it is there spacecraft and vaccsuits that they have an adversion to...but surely the LoT might be trying to geneer that out of the K'kree genome. I see them as Provolutionists with a mission other than Anarchy.

The conservative K'Kree were radical enough to create an empire, commit genocide and ecological holocausts on thousands of worlds, fight the Hivers, fight the Vargr, and exile the Lords of Thunder. That points to certain mindset any expansionist ruler could tap.

The current rulers of the 2000 Worlds are both pragmatists and religious schismatics. They realize their empire is overstretched, primarily because of their psychological quirks, and they question the underlying "Kill All G'naak" tenet of the K'Kree faith. The only thing stopping further K'Kree crusades are the K'Kree's rulers. Remove those rulers and the fighting begins again.

As for geneering, I don't see a race as profoundly conservative as the K'Kree "chopping" themselves. Criminals and other untenmensch perhaps, but not the Steppelords.

So the rise of the Imperium was just a natural precipation. I don't know...I don't see some parts of the world ever left the Hobbesan "State of Nature" that dominated the Long Night/Dark Ages. There is no reason to believe that something more sinister could have not taken hold.

No, the rise of the Imperium was not due to precipitation. However, the rise of a large polity within the former confines of the ZS/ROM was. The Imperium had two early rivals nearly as large as itself. That points to certain "astro-political" conditions occurring during the last few centuries of the Long Night. All those pocket empire were beginning to coalesce, so the arrival of a large polity - either more enlightened or more damned than the 3I - was only a matter of time.

But, essentially, I would have seen the Traveller Universe move and become more like 2320AD. It would present a sort of Terran domination but also allow enough time for other Minor Races to become major.

Within Earth's region of exploration sure. What would happen where the K'Kree and Hivers are active is something much more akin to the OTU however.

This is where I disagree with all of you. GT is more than removing Dulinor from the equation. Surely such an attempt would also have ripples across the nobility. I see it more of a prelude of a powerplay that would have many more dissatisfied players in the Moot quietly plotting the overthrow of the tyrant Stephon.

You haven't paid much attention to those JTAS news snippets have you? Strephon just didn't allow Dulinor to slip on the soap in GT, there's been some large scale house cleaning going on too. Lot's of resignations, early retirements, and disappearances. This power play is still going on, it isn't merely a case of "Dulinor Go Boom, Everything Nice".

The Regency...the backwoods power from the Marches become the predominant power in Chartered Space...now that is interesting.

The Regency backwards? WTF? They're moving into TL16. They're also both the largest human polity left and the second largest polity behind the Hivers. They're not backwards anymore. Remember, they meet the RC and not the other way around.

Cope out answer.

Let's see yours then. The results of the "slate wiper" you described descending on Chartered Space depend on so many variables. What are the aliens like? What are their goals? How much more powerful are they? Will they have local allies? Are they interested in local allies? What's their technology like. There are so many answers to those and the hundreds of similar questions that any "discussion" is impossible until the setting is framed.

Could we see a Grand Alliance as we did with the Dominate but at the same time, that would not be take into account the strength factor. As the Black Imperium and Dominate were already worn out by the time it came to fight. Also, it is much easier to encircle the Black Imperium/Dominate then it would be an Enemy moving across such a broad front and from an unknown point of origin.

Exactly. There are too many variables at work. I also wouldn't crib too much from M:1248, it's far too romantic and twee to work as a plausible political, military, and sociological template.

OTL & HMR? What are those.

You're discussing alternate history for Traveller and you don't know the terms? ;) OTL means original time line. ATL means alternate time line. HMR mean human minor race.

My scenario imagined a quick victory by the kids and ruthless suppression of the Grandfather faction.

The Final War wasn't as simple as Grandfather versus Everyone Else. It was a genocidal fight with ever shifting alliances. Some of the Kids and Grandkids tried to stay neutral until they were dragged in. Some of the Kids and Grandkids actually allied with Grandfather until they realized he meant to kill them all. In such a climate, if Grandfather had been bumped off, the remaining Kids and Grandkids would have turned on each other sooner or later. The eventual results would have been essentially the same as the OTL; one or two "victors" in "hiding" as they conducted their all important research.

A longer Final war would have been more destructive however. More asteroid belts and fewer HMRs surviving. The early Vargr may have been killed off too. Grandfather assisted the surviving Droyne over the next few hundred thousand years too. He (re)introduced the casting rituals and jump drive. Whether the one or two survivors would do them same is unknown.


Regards,
Bill
 
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As illuminating as ever...Bill and others...let's try to digest these segments and put them back whole...(I just love debating future history so hopefully you guys will get tired too much with me). [btw, just kafka is fine]

So the only way the Consulate could expand would be to through Vargr held space. It is unlikely that Consulate would retain enough cohesion to make a viable instellar polity if they go through Doggy Space. Which is why I thought of them going through the Marches (had say GT's War Party gained ascendance). Especially, at a time that Consulate was at its peak. It could easily formed a prescence to meet the nanscent Imperium head on.

I know that the Corridor was part of the Vilani Imperium but as was other parts of Chartered Space that were permanently lost to aliens. What would be interesting what was the encounters between the Vilani and the Zhodani like in the First Imperium. If we include things like Vanguard Reaches & Beyond, surely, we can make the case for deeper incursions into the Marches by the Zhodani than had previously thought about.

Yes, the OTU, has the Zhodani being very conservative about expansion. However, if we are to accept the Jacksonian heresy, then we have to accept also that this policy is up to constant revision, as it is in any democracy. I posit a period indeed around -1000 for the War & Imperial party to take ascendance.

The other latent factor one that I led to Psionic Supression and the massive Anti-Zhodani feeling was a moral panic stirred up the Vilani nobility to counterweight the growing ascendance of the Solomani in Court.

As for geneering, I don't see a race as profoundly conservative as the K'Kree "chopping" themselves. Criminals and other untenmensch perhaps, but not the Steppelords.

Exactly how the Lords of Thunder are protrayed within the Great Herd. That is exactly why it would take a coup d'etat by the Lords to basically get the rest of the Herd to move along the same path. Play into their instincts and fears, first, increase the number of crazies via scuttle means - propaganda, external threats, show trials, etc. Then offer "volunitary innoculations" against said threats.

You haven't paid much attention to those JTAS news snippets have you? Strephon just didn't allow Dulinor to slip on the soap in GT, there's been some large scale house cleaning going on too. Lot's of resignations, early retirements, and disappearances. This power play is still going on, it isn't merely a case of "Dulinor Go Boom, Everything Nice".

No, I have grown tired of how they ramble and then get to something interesting then ramble on again for a few more more months before punctured by something different. If I were to have a JTAS subscription, it might be different but I would rather see all these things compiled into a sourcebook of sorts. I hate reading computer screens. Even with JTAS, I am just as likely to read only Loren's editorials, as I always find the teasers the most interesting parts of JTAS with a few exceptions...just old fashioned print guy.

Anyhow, back to the issue at hand, Stephon became the tyrant from the moment he ascended the Iridium throne. It is not a judgement on the man but the institution. Just as there is a Brothers of Varian, I could easily someone having a Brothers of Dulinor in an ATU. "Wounded Collosus" is a brilliant piece of writing but it negates some of the chances of reform. It reads very much like the people who write Soviet history who deny the possibility of reform and often bypass viable historical alternatives that actually existed or were comprehensive models that were stillborn.

Dulinor, I see, as leading the crusade and changing the order of things. Somewhere in one of the TNE books, Norris reflects that in order to defeat Dulinor it was neccessary to enact reforms called upon by Dulinor...Dulinor's tragedy is that he had to become more like the Imperium that he wanted to change in order to defeat Lucan.
 
So the only way the Consulate could expand would be to through Vargr held space.


Kafka,

The Consulate can only expand through Vargr-occupied space? Of course not.

Leaving the Core Route aside, the Consulate's borders pass through 12 different sectors. In one sector the border contacts the Imperium and Vargr and in two sectors the border contacts the Vargr alone. If the Zhos want to expand they have nine other "free" sectors to chose from. Why would they then chose to expand at the expense of the largest human polity in Charted Space or at the expense of an alien species who cannot be fully assimilated?

I don't think you've quite grasped the basic nature of Zhodani expansion either. Leaving the Core Route aside, the Consulate essentially stopped expanding two thousand years before the OTU's present. Aside from relatively minor fluctuations, the Consulate's borders haven't changed from one thousand years since before the Imperium was founded.

Such stasis isn't some government policy that could be reviewed, such stasis is a basic way of thinking. Expansion goes down the Core Route. Such thinking is what makes the Zhos the Zhos. More importantly, such thinking is what makes the Zhos know they are Zhos.

You aren't going to see the Zhos "pinch off" the Domain of Deneb. They have stable borders already, they needn't expand in that direction, and the Imperium threat has been handled relatively well over the last five centuries. The Domain of Deneb also inflicts a strategic incubus on the Imperium; the Zhos and their allies can threaten the Domain far more easily than the Imperium can defend it. The Zhos would be silly to remove this "glass jaw", it is much better for them if it continues to exist.

I know that the Corridor was part of the Vilani Imperium...

That's debatable. We've the official maps in Vilani & Vargr which show little penetration by the Vilani to spinward, but we've also continued mentions of Vilani governors arming Vargr for political power plays along with Ziru Sirka-era Vilani colonies in Deneb, the Marches, and beyond.

I believe there were a lot of spinward and coreward Vilani colonies "off the books" prior to contact with the Solomani and even more were set up after the Terran Confederation began kicking ass. Records of these colonies were deliberately lost or no records existed to begin with in order to hide them first from political enemies in the Ziru Sirka and later from the Terran Confederation.

... but as was other parts of Chartered Space that were permanently lost to aliens.

That portion of the Ziru Sikra you refer to is now known as the Julian Protectorate. I'll point you to the Imperium's success in re-incorporate those "lost" territories.

... If we include things like Vanguard Reaches & Beyond, surely, we can make the case for deeper incursions into the Marches by the Zhodani than had previously thought about.

Stable borders do not equate no cross border activities. In fact I've long suggested that the Zhos conduct a vigorous "over the border" presence. We've been told explicitly that the Zhos spied on the Darrians after the Maghiz, have client states in Foreven, control their Vargr border through targeted kidnappings and brainwashings, interfere with inter-polity politics in Far Frontiers, and intervened quite strongly several times in the affairs of a HMR polity, the Vlaz-something-or-others, coreward of the Consulate. Hans Rancke also opines, and I tend to agree with him, that the Zhos routinely engage in the low cost, long term, passive terraforming of targeted worlds beyond their borders.

The border only marks where the fortress proper ends, after that there's a rather large defensive glacis that needs tending.

Yes, the OTU, has the Zhodani being very conservative about expansion. However, if we are to accept the Jacksonian heresy, then we have to accept also that this policy is up to constant revision, as it is in any democracy.

I believe the "Explore the Core Route" paradigm is a crucial part of what the Zhos believe themselves to be and thus cannot be revised by a "vote". I also think that, while Zho border policies are under constant review and revision, large scale expansion is reserved for the Core Route. Furthermore, if a paradigm shift did occur, the Consulate would have borders in NINE other sectors that could expanded without effecting the Imperium and Vargr.

Given their use of psionics, the Consulate is very much a "group think" society in which fundamental policy changes appear gradually. They've all but ceased expansion along the Consualte's proper borders, even worlds taken in the Marches from the Imperium centuries ago have yet to be incorporated into the Consulate proper. The Zhos are epitome of gradualism.

Exactly how the Lords of Thunder are protrayed within the Great Herd. That is exactly why it would take a coup d'etat by the Lords to basically get the rest of the Herd to move along the same path. Play into their instincts and fears, first, increase the number of crazies via scuttle means - propaganda, external threats, show trials, etc. Then offer "volunitary innoculations" against said threats.

I don't buy a lot of M:1248's ideas and K'Kree volunteering to be "chopped" by an insane cybernetic lifeform is one of the ideas I really don't buy.

Anyhow, back to the issue at hand, Stephon became the tyrant from the moment he ascended the Iridium throne. It is not a judgement on the man but the institution. Just as there is a Brothers of Varian, I could easily someone having a Brothers of Dulinor in an ATU.

I don't think a "Brothers of Dulinor" or other similar organizations need to be part of an ATU because I believe they're already part of the OTU.

"Wounded Collosus" is a brilliant piece of writing but it negates some of the chances of reform.

The reforms in WoCo were written to resemble reforms that a participant in the system would suggest. Strephon grew up in the Imperial system, was educated in the Imperial system, is the titular head of the Imperial system, and presumably loves the imperial system. His reforms are going to work within that system, not destroy or replace it.

I'll point out that, at first, Dulinor has the same viewpoint as Strephon. He's commits treason to reform the system and not to replace it.

It reads very much like the people who write Soviet history who deny the possibility of reform and often bypass viable historical alternatives that actually existed or were comprehensive models that were stillborn.

It does so for the reason I mentioned above. You're also one of the very few people who've noticed the Soviet/Pact analogies I purposely wrote into WoCo. Fred Ramen was one of the first.

Dulinor, I see, as leading the crusade and changing the order of things.

Dulinor plans on working within the system at first, then, when he breaks with the Imperial ideal and founds the Federation, he finds himself employing tactics right out of the Imperium Handbook to suppress a rebellion in Verge. Dulinor never leads anything resembling a crusade because he, in his heart, is a dilettante.


Regards,
Bill
 
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We've the official maps in Vilani & Vargr which show little penetration by the Vilani to spinward, but we've also continued mentions of Vilani governors arming Vargr for political power plays along with Ziru Sirka-era Vilani colonies in Deneb, the Marches, and beyond.

I believe there were a lot of spinward and coreward Vilani colonies "off the books" prior to contact with the Solomani and even more were set up after the Terran Confederation began kicking ass. Records of these colonies were deliberately lost or no records existed to begin with in order to hide them first from political enemies in the Ziru Sirka and later from the Terran Confederation.
Non-canonical library data I wrote to explain a throwaway reference to "the Third Colonization Wave" (Vanejen was settled around -2430 during the 3CW):

Third Colonization Wave: Name given by Imperial historians to a spate of unauthorized colonies set up by Vilani malcontents during the latter days of the First Imperium. By this time the Siru Zirka had become moribund, wracked by frequent civil wars and economic recessions. Many Vilani were able to see what was going on, but most resigned themselves to enduring what could not be cured.

However, around -2450 a new philosophy spread to a number of worlds throughout the Imperium. Its origin was never traced and it had no formal name, but it could be summed up in the phrase "Let's get out from under!" Over the next century, several hundred expeditions set out secretly in defiance of long-standing Imperial edicts to carve out a new life far from the decaying 1st Imperium. The expeditions went in all directions, but the greatest number headed spinward to Deneb, Provence, and Tuglikki. A few even made it as far as Gvurrdon, Reft, and the Spinward Marches.

The pattern of development for 3rd Wave colonies was the same for more than 80% of them. All of them were established on H-prime or H-norm worlds. On practically all of them the colony was successfully established and prospered for a while. Eventually the lack of contact with a supplier of essential technology would cause the colony to lose some of its technology. A few managed to hang on to Industrial technology, but most slid all the way down to Pre-Industrial levels. At this point a few of the colonies died out, most decivilized, losing many of their traditional Vilani cultural traits in the process, and a very few managed to adapt to changing conditions and hang on to their culture.​

After that there was the colonization wave triggered by the conditions during the Rule of Man from -2300 to -1700, starting with defeated Vilani fleets leaving the Imperium and ending with deliberate colonization ventures trying to escape the fall of the RoM (Ending? No, tapering off around -1700; there have been expeditions throughout the Long Night, just not as many; the Itzin Fleet and the Sword Worlder expedition are two known examples).


Stable borders do not equate no cross border activities. In fact I've long suggested that the Zhos conduct a vigorous "over the border" presence. We've been told explicitly that the Zhos spied on the Darrians after the Maghiz, have client states in Foreven, control their Vargr border through targeted kidnappings and brainwashings, interfere with inter-polity politics in Far Frontiers, and intervened quite strongly several times in the affairs of a HMR polity, the Vlaz-something-or-others, coreward of the Consulate.
Vlazdumecta.

Hans Rancke also opines, and I tend to agree with him, that the Zhos routinely engage in the low cost, long term, passive terraforming of targeted worlds beyond their borders.
Yes. I think they're the ones who spread the Sea Bears far and wide, for one example. Though I think that it happened shortly before -1000, part of prepping the next region targeted for expansion, before that policy was abandoned.


Hans
 
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I had always assumed that the Coreward orientation to be the Manifest Destiny for the Zhodani combined with a Messianism that the Artifact provoked within a faction of the nobility not a firm foreign policy objective. So, yes, there is the Core expeditions but akin the lead up to the 5yr plan (or in the case of the Zhodani - the 50yr plan) or things like Spartica in Eastern Europe. Dress up pagents that keep the proles distracted with cheap booze whilst the leaders decide to divide up the spoils.

Yes, I think, I first read Wounded Colosus when I was in Prague but not having real access to the internet failed to comment then. It struck me a plausible and brilliant resolution to the crisis posed by the Rebellion but somewhat defeatist. Perhaps, I am naive but I took Dulinor at his word as he was quoted in the Rebellion Sourcebook with a long run objective of transforming the worlds of the Imperium into Liberal Democracies.

Glad to hear that the Brothers of Dulinor are alive and well out there in OTU.
 
Sorry to cherry pick one sentence out of your good post here, Bill, but I did want to comment on this:

I don't buy a lot of M:1248's ideas and K'Kree volunteering to be "chopped" by an insane cybernetic lifeform is one of the ideas I really don't buy.

The above concept, or something very like it, was intended to occur in the original TNE timeline. Although I think it was more strictly a matter of the Black Curtain assimilating a bunch of K'Kree and 'borging them, not the convoluted mess that the Curtain/Dominate storyline became with 1248. In fact, I like "original" idea better (if it is that), where the K'Kree were involuntarily enslaved in this manner. To me that makes a more compelling story, but YMMV.

I beleive Nilsen posted something about it here when he had his posting run a few years back, and the image of these things is on the TNE T-Shirt.
 
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