When the Lorenverse and the OTU meet

[robject]

As you know, GURPS: Traveller's timeline, the "Lorenverse", is an alternate timeline. However, there may be a "Point Of Meeting" (POM) where the two official timeliness actually meet (and potentially diverge again after that).


Fact 1. The OTU and LTU share the timeline up to 1115. The Point Of Divergence (POD) primarily concerns the loss of the Golden Era setting, strongly marked by the Assassination (MT) and its consequences, particularly Virus (TNE).

Fact 2. The Empress Wave hits both TUs (every TU?).

Corollary 1. The LTU written timeline covers 1116 to 1130, and spans to 1400, when the Empress Wave has passed through most of Charted space.

Hypothesis 1. The POM is 1400.

Hypothesis 2. Before the POM, OTU "Virus" loses meaning, and is unrecognizable from high-TL self-aware positronic brains and ship computers.

Hypothesis 3. Reality Manipulation has the potential to travel between the two timelines (and alternatives of course) within one campaign.

 

[atpollard]

I think that merging the timelines is almost impossible ... the EXISTENCE of a Virus and Vampire Fleet, even if dealt with, would have made irreconcilable impacts to the civilization. It would be like attempting to reconcile an Earth where the Roman Empire never fell with an Earth with a Middle Ages ... even if the Renaissance was superficially similar to the Roman Empire, the Middle Ages had brought about real, permanent change.

Just my 2 cents ... but I am ProtoTraveller, so I got no dog in that fight.

 

[inexorabletash]

I don't think it's that simple. But I also think there are elements in the T5 rules that are relevant to this discussion, and have a hunch...

 

[McPerth]

I agree with atpolalrd here.

One of the effects that the virus would have had, even many years (and possibly centuries) after the problem was solved would be distrust (near to fear level) for automatization.

Even while some automatization would be necessary, on a post virus universe, it would be kept at minimal, and with lots of firewalls and compartimentalized computers, while in a universe without the virus experience, it would evolute to more automatization (even if a sophont giving orders is needed) and centralized (and more efficinet) computer control.

 

[DonM]

(1) I'm assuming that Don McKinney's "Integrated Traveller Timeline", which stops at 359-1115, applies to both the GURPS Traveller Milieu as well as the Rebellion-era Milieu.

(2) Has anyone created a Rebellion-thru-TNE timeline?

(3) I'll have to read up on the actual Lorenverse timeline details -- unless someone has followed in Don's footsteps and created a followup Alternate Timeline from 1116 onward.

Actually, the updated timeline Marc has me buried in has all of this, with connections to both the T5 Second Survey (and its Lorenverse counterpart) and the T5 Sophont Review. Did you miss an e-mail?

I'll drop you a note.

 

[flykiller]

while in a universe without the virus experience, it would evolute to more automatization

well, there's your convergence. virus appears as scheduled, or later, but it appears either way.

 

[mike wightman]

First - the Lorenverse has to diverge a lot earlier than Dulinor's shuttle exploding.

He had been planning for years and had agents in place ready to go. His shuttle explodes and yet none of his agents go though with their part of the plan - how do they know the shuttle exploded?

Truth - the point of divergence is a made up piece of rubbish - no one has any idea when or what it was. I eagerly wait to be corrected

Next - there is no fourth Imperium, the third never went away. There is an unbroken line of succession thanks to the ridiculous real Strephon retcon.

 

[robject]

I've just finished reading through the G:T TNS entries, and I consider them subtle and well-done. The TNS entries show puzzlement and fruitless investigations.

So Dulinor's plans, whatever they were, and whoever he used, came to naught, and if any related activities happened, they were never traced back and correlated to Dulinor. Excellent planning? Very few people in the know? I don't know.


As for the Third Imperium: that's a very good point. Some chain of events has to happen between 1130 and 1400 to morph the Third Imperium into a weaker Fourth Imperium.

 

[SanDragon]

Next - there is no fourth Imperium, the third never went away. There is an unbroken line of succession thanks to the ridiculous real Strephon retcon.

A ridiculous retcon that amused the hell out of me and buried (deeply and permanently) a career track from a Dragon magazine article that made ubermenschy characters.

See Survival Margin, page 28, boxed text attributed to said emperor. Beginning...

"Who are these IRIS people?
You'd think that I might have heard of them once or twice."

 

[GypsyComet]

As a result, Virus is never released (and probably not weaponized, either).

You underestimate the Solomani, who are ripening up to explode in the Lorenverse. Because of where the Cyms originate, Loren-side Virus could easily start as a Solomani weapon, and do so very early. The map gets just as flat, because the Solies don't even like each other, much less the rest of Charted Space.

 

[inexorabletash]

Just so my prediction is out there on the record...

Spoiler:

T5 introduces the notion of paradigm shifts; technological breakthroughs that fundamentally alter a civilization in irreversible ways which can't be predicted. The two paradigm shifts in the past (circa 1115) are Jump Drive (which opens up interstellar travel) and Fusion Plus (which makes energy a commodity). The one in the future is... Reality Manipulation, including "revision of event flow".

I predict that circa 1900 (i.e. Galaxiad era), the Imperium (or equivalent) makes the RM breaththrough. This is transformative on a local level, allowing near magic control of events for sufficiently advanced practitioners. One massive experiment is attempted: preventing the assassination of Strephon by stopping the traitor Dulinor. This is the OTU equivalent of "we have a time machine; let's kill Hitler!"

At such a scale this effectively "forks" the universe, rendering both realities plausible, but also forces a convergence of the histories such that *both* histories lead to the Galaxiad era, however implausible that might seem. Needless to say, the unexpected consequences of such historical tampering are suppressed much as psychohistorical tampering was abandoned.

The subtleties of RM are why there isn't a single point of departure and how Dulinor's agents did not act despite a lack of signals; RM changes ripple backwards through the event flow in a non-causal manner. *handwave*

 

[JFGarber]

One of the effects that the virus would have had, even many years (and possibly centuries) after the problem was solved would be distrust (near to fear level) for automatization.

And lead perhaps to something akin to Frank Herbert's Mentats.

 

[Procopius]

A ridiculous retcon that amused the hell out of me and buried (deeply and permanently) a career track from a Dragon magazine article that made ubermenschy characters.

JTAS 33-36, actually.

First - the Lorenverse has to diverge a lot earlier than Dulinor's shuttle exploding.

He had been planning for years and had agents in place ready to go. His shuttle explodes and yet none of his agents go though with their part of the plan - how do they know the shuttle exploded?

Yep, as Comrade Robject notes, the GURPS JTAS mentions a number of other events -- surprise cashiering of senior officers in the Iliesh Guard, Dulinor's brother having a "stroke", and so forth and so on. The plot was comprehensively dismantled. I didn't even recognize any of this when I first read the Lorenverse JTAS, because the significance of the news items is only clear to those who've a familiarity with MegaTraveller.

 

[Procopius]

Also:

Spoiler:

This is the OTU equivalent of "we have a time machine; let's kill Hitler!"

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zaHLhj8jjA

 

[SanDragon]

The reference I had was a Dragon magazine...

Issue #35

March 1980

 

[BlackBat242]

JTAS 33-36, actually.

The reference I had was a Dragon magazine... Issue #35 March 1980

You two are confusing two similar but different careers/agencies.

The following is from https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/travellerdownport/conversations/messages/1204

IBIS (Imperial Bureau of Internal Security) was published in Dragon #35 in March 1980 by Kenneth Burke as part of a group of Traveller articles, and is described as
"...the Imperium's combination secret police, intelligence gathering agency and law enforcement agency; it is answerable to no one but the Emperor himself."


IRIS (the Imperial Regency of Intelligence and Security) was published in Challenge 33 by Charles Gannon, IRIS character generation followed in issue 34.

IRIS was created to deal with the lessons of the Barracks Emperors and was ".. an independent, invisible force with the power to eliminate individuals who would contest the lawful Emperor or his/her succesors."

IRIS had five mandates: (quoted from Challenge)
1. Ensure and enforce the smooth and lawful succession of rightful heirs to the Imperial Throne.
2. Prevent "unreliable" individuals from gaining direct access/proximity to the person of the Emperor.
3. Check and compare all information relayed to the Emperor against IRIS' own independent sources.
4. Identify all significant anti-Imperial covert activities initiated by foreign powers. Formulate and expedite responses thereto.
5. Conduct and maintain covert activities in foreign territories, pursuant to ensuring the security of the Imperium.

So IRIS is:
1. the authority to determine rightful rulership of the Imperium AND in control until a new ruler is crowned.
2. the royal bodyguards.
3. an intelligence agency to confirm data from the competing Army, Marine, Navy and Scout branches.
4. counter-intelligence against foreign spies.
5. the Imperial spy agency.

The failure to stop Dulinor comes when popular opinion,following the Fifth Frontier War, believed that normal humans were superior to psionic talents. This opinion was very strong in the Illelish sector. Eventually there were requests that the Emperor do away with psionic screening. IRIS voluntarily withdrew, which resulted in an increase of certain nobles at court. IRIS joined the nobles in advising not to appoint Dulinor to the Archdukedom. IRIS intelligence spotted suspicious ship movements in Dulinor's forces, but could not reach Strephon in time. The senior regent was killed just before the assassination and courier delays prevented IRIS from taking appropriate action until after Lucan's ascension.


Sidenote: In the early 80's, maybe in White Dwarf #40, there was an article creating the "Covert Survey Bureau" an intelligence/covert ops branch of the Scout service. According to Book 6, the closest official section is the Security Branch of the IISS which has "...great authority to arrest, detain, or question individuals suspected of violations of Imperial law, and can demand cooperation from local authorities as the need arises."

 

[SanDragon]

Hmm... Darn.

You are correct.

Still.... ubermenschy!!!

 

[BlackBat242]

Yes - but they both make great adversaries for independence-loving, law-bending PCs, now don't they?

 

[mike wightman]

IMPTU most PC groups have ended up siding with the Ine Givar - frontier folk really don't like losing their freedom to the Imperialisation of their worlds.

INI were their main adversaries because these two organisations were not available way back then.

 

[Dagrill]

Next - there is no fourth Imperium, the third never went away. There is an unbroken line of succession thanks to the ridiculous real Strephon retcon.

Hi,

I object to the use of Ridiculous, for those of us that see Dulinor, Virus and Vampire fleets as 'ridiculous' the retcon is the best way to go. (It ruined my groups 80's Traveller experience for one).

Long live Strephon!

Kind Regards

David