A different paradigm for naval warfare (and maybe even piracy?)

[atpollard]

WARFARE:
Age of Sail: The long slow pounding allows warships time to recognize defeat, surrender and be taken as POWs. This time to ponder allows for the possibility (however unlikely in real life) of a Hollywood type of “Gentleman’s War”.

The Modern Age: The swift sinking of a ship will leave little time for the rescue of survivors even if you wanted to rescue them. Plus your warship (or more likely, your attack submarine) is vulnerable to an enemy counterattack while you are trying to rescue prisoners from the freezing waters. You have no room to house prisoners even if you can rescue them. The “need for speed” allows no possibility (even if it were desired) of a Hollywood type of “Gentleman’s War”.

Traveller: The slow pounding allows for the possibility of some aspects of the “Gentleman’s War” (surrender and POWs). Taking Prizes seems unlikely given the limited time before local reinforcements arrive. How would a fleet handle the total defeat of local forces, but sustaining heavy damage? You have two weeks to make repairs and nothing to prevent your commandeering the orbital shipyards and any planetary resources you might need. If the world cooperates, the victors might be merciful and destroy only the strategic targets (like the shipyard and weapons factories). Is it reasonable to expect different races to spare civilian populations because “Total War” will lead to reprisals in kind and that is too expensive for both sides?

 

[Arthur Denger]

I must say, I agree with Liam that this is a terrific topic and I am thoroughly enjoying the discussion thus far!

Originally posted by atpollard:
I have one or two concerns about blindly accepting the assertion that 20th Century Technology rendered 18th Century warfare utterly useless AND THEREFORE the Traveller universe must be fought with 20th Century tactics instead of 18th Century tactics...

Age of Sail battles ... were slow by modern standards. Limited communication means that help is usually far away, information travels slowly, and ships operate (to a large extent) on their own. The ships were tougher than the weapons, so defeat involved a long slow pounding.

Modern battles, by contrast, are swift and deadly. Weapons far exceed defenses and a small missile can sink a large warship with a single hit. Rapid communications means that reinforcements can be on the way as soon as a threat is detected. The ability of submarines to “hide” under the oceans is the only source of a “surprise attack”...

Traveller seems to fall somewhere between these two historic models.

Certainly Traveller is more heavily based upon the pre-19th Century Terran model than later eras. I suspect, however, that pirates, privateers, buccaneers, corsairs, raiders and what have you will exist in some form in the far future, just as they have always existed since the first sailing vessels. What is necessary for their existence is the proper economic model, the model of scarcity. If in the far future, resources are abundant and broadly available, then there will not exist these cutthroat elements, they will go the way of another former inhabitant of the Madagascar vicinity: the dodo. That's not the model Traveller uses, though (thank the stars)!

Originally posted by atpollard:

Age of Sail: Pirates have time to seize a ship, repair the damage and escape before anyone could come to interfere. Rescue from a pirate attack was the exception rather than the rule.

The Modern Age: Pirates are more “snatch and grab” thugs on the seas – What would you do with a supertanker or container ship if you captured one? What will you do when the Armed Forces arrive?

Traveller: A Yo-Ho-Ho Pirate would need to travel in a fleet strong enough to defeat the System Defenses, repair itself, loot the system and leave – all in less than 2 weeks... That would be closer to the SERENITY model of “pirates” and worlds would live in terror of such an attack. Pirates would then have a reason to steal ships – to expand the fleet and replace losses – but they would loot the entire starport, warehouses and orbital construction facilities. The lone Pirate ship raiding a Free Trader must be an oddity – the desperate act of desperate men.

Piracy in 21st Century Terra was a severe problem in many areas, most notably in the Indian Ocean and Pacific region of the Indonesian Archipelago, also near coastal areas in Africa and some parts of South America. It exists where there is an insufficient or non-existent military and law enforcement presence. And container ships were major targets; their cargoes were generally portable and relatively easy to resell. Perhaps more importantly, crewmembers still make great hostages, just as they did hundreds of years before nuclear reactors were invented.

Again, Traveller uses a completely different model from the Firefly/Serenity universe, where worlds are numerous, tend to be highly populated and are clustered together in close proximity, with travel times between them being fast. I'm not sure that FTL travel even exists in the Firefly universe. Arthur, IYTU it seems that SDBs and patrols by military and law enforcement are routine and widespread (which is bully for business and bad for bad guys). Not so out here in the Frontier Worlds, where Scout base worlds are sparse, SDBs are a rare and valuable commodity, seldom seen in numbers of more than one or two, and naval bases completely non-existent. Here there is an ever-present risk of piracy, and those who travel in the Frontier Worlds are well advised to be prepared to deal with such a threat. Indeed, their very lives depend upon it.

 

[sgbrown]

Originally posted by atpollard:
WARFARE:
-clip- Is it reasonable to expect different races to spare civilian populations because “Total War” will lead to reprisals in kind and that is too expensive for both sides?

It's reasonable provided the different races are reasonable and consider sophant life to be valuable.

Many human societies have practiced genocide - so I see no reason to suspect that an alien society couldn't be genocidal. But a genocidal alien society would be a logical prime target for everyone else. If they placed no value on life being a prime target might not be a detterant however.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Arthur hault-Denger:
Certainly Traveller is more heavily based upon the pre-19th Century Terran model than later eras. I suspect, however, that pirates, privateers, buccaneers, corsairs, raiders and what have you will exist in some form in the far future, just as they have always existed since the first sailing vessels. What is necessary for their existence is the proper economic model, the model of scarcity. If in the far future, resources are abundant and broadly available, then there will not exist these cutthroat elements, they will go the way of another former inhabitant of the Madagascar vicinity: the dodo. That's not the model Traveller uses, though (thank the stars)!

I want pirates to exist. It adds color and excitement to the game. But I have trouble imagining a pirate with a spinal mount or a system without access to one. If Indonesian style pirates became a problem in the Hawaiian Islands, the US Navy could loan some of it’s WW2 era mothball fleet to the State of Hawaii to boost local defense. Ten pirates in a speedboat with a RPG launcher are no match for the 30 mm deck gun of an old cruiser.

The Imperium has 1000 years of old ships to loan to systems. A pirate attacking within 100 diameters of the world is only 2 hours away from combat with a TL 13 10,000 dTon vintage warship. That is not much time to disable a merchant ship, overtake it, board it, loot it and leave. The SOS probably goes out as soon as the pirate begins to pursue the victim. Every turn brings the Merchant and pirate closer to the world and the Warship closer to the pirate. The classic model of starship piracy has as high a mortality rate as the official HG combat. Would you attack a pair of SDBs with a Broadsword Class pirate ship?

You are correct that the ability of piracy to exist depends on the size and strength of a planetary navy. How can a planet have enough trade to require a starport, but not enough money for a couple SDBs? How can the pirates have enough ship to defeat a SDB and survive by grabbing small craft and hostages?

 

[mike wightman]

Here's a little quote from CT:S3 that I'd missed for all these years...

In addition to the coded symbols, any world with a TL of 7 or 8 and a population of 6+ will probably have a base for local (planetary) naval forces (such forces will be capable of interplanetary, though not interstellar, flight). Any world with a TL of 9+ and a population of 6+ will probably have a base for local naval forces (which are capable of interstellar flight, where necessary).

 

[robject]

"probably"? What's that mean? Roll pop or less on 2D?

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by robject:
"probably"? What's that mean? Roll pop or less on 2D?

"Probably" means that it does unless there is some reason that the referee does not want it.

"Could" means that it does not unless there is some reason that the referee wants it.

 

[Arthur Denger]

Originally posted by atpollard:

I want pirates to exist.

Arrr! Me, too, shiver me gravitters!

Originally posted by atpollard:
It adds color and excitement to the game. But I have trouble imagining a pirate with a spinal mount or a system without access to one. If Indonesian style pirates became a problem in the Hawaiian Islands, the US Navy could loan some of it’s WW2 era mothball fleet to the State of Hawaii to boost local defense. Ten pirates in a speedboat with a RPG launcher are no match for the 30 mm deck gun of an old cruiser.

Unless the cruiser is docked, or in parking orbit and the pirates use an explosives-laden and remotely or cybernetically piloted ships boat to ram it, perhaps even suicide style. Now the cruiser (or whatever) is effectively disabled and the pirates may strike elsewhere at will. Even if reinforcements are sent, successful pirates will be long gone by then.

Originally posted by atpollard:

The Imperium has 1000 years of old ships to loan to systems. A pirate attacking within 100 diameters of the world is only 2 hours away from combat with a TL 13 10,000 dTon vintage warship. That is not much time to disable a merchant ship, overtake it, board it, loot it and leave. The SOS probably goes out as soon as the pirate begins to pursue the victim. Every turn brings the Merchant and pirate closer to the world and the Warship closer to the pirate. The classic model of starship piracy has as high a mortality rate as the official HG combat. Would you attack a pair of SDBs with a Broadsword Class pirate ship?

No, but what if the craft in the SDB role is a Gazelle, and the corsair craft is an SDB, or even a couple of cutters. The hunter could soon become the hunted. Been there, done that, don't wanna do it again! Obviously, pirates/corsairs are going to avoid conflict when they are outclassed and outgunned. But that will not stop them from striking a soft target.

Originally posted by atpollard:

You are correct that the ability of piracy to exist depends on the size and strength of a planetary navy. How can a planet have enough trade to require a starport, but not enough money for a couple SDBs? How can the pirates have enough ship to defeat a SDB and survive by grabbing small craft and hostages?

Ever been to a Class C (or lower) starport? Outside the Coreward systems many of 'em can barely afford to keep running water in the freshers, much less have first-line defensive capability (or even second- or third-)! Spinal weapons? Meson guns? Please! The local economy would never support that kind of excess. First class boondoggle, get the local Starport Administrator run out of town on a railgun...

Sure, if the Imperial Navy is aware of a problem with piracy within its borders, it may dispatch a Kinunir- class or something to show the flag, but most pirate crews are not going to be that obvious. Not for long, anyway.

 

[Arthur Denger]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Here's a little quote from CT:S3 that I'd missed for all these years...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In addition to the coded symbols, any world with a TL of 7 or 8 and a population of 6+ will probably have a base for local (planetary) naval forces (such forces will be capable of interplanetary, though not interstellar, flight). Any world with a TL of 9+ and a population of 6+ will probably have a base for local naval forces (which are capable of interstellar flight, where necessary).

</font>[/QUOTE]

Which is why systems with this profile seldom become hangouts for miscreants (at least offworld). A gas giant in a system with a naval base is generally a pretty benign place to refuel. Might get boarded, may have some red tape to wade through, but one can generally avoid being attacked there (provided you're not actively engaged in piracy, that is!).

 

[robject]

Did I mention here that Walt Smith came up with a plausible defense of piracy some years ago? All it takes to pay expenses via piracy is to "take" one ship's boat per year (and maybe not that often).

 

[sgbrown]

Originally posted by Arthur hault-Denger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Here's a little quote from CT:S3 that I'd missed for all these years...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In addition to the coded symbols, any world with a TL of 7 or 8 and a population of 6+ will probably have a base for local (planetary) naval forces (such forces will be capable of interplanetary, though not interstellar, flight). Any world with a TL of 9+ and a population of 6+ will probably have a base for local naval forces (which are capable of interstellar flight, where necessary).

</font>[/QUOTE]

Which is why systems with this profile seldom become hangouts for miscreants (at least offworld). A gas giant in a system with a naval base is generally a pretty benign place to refuel. Might get boarded, may have some red tape to wade through, but one can generally avoid being attacked there (provided you're not actively engaged in piracy, that is!).

</font>[/QUOTE]So let's see, you're a belter who makes their living off of finding mineral rocks that others can't - do you always stay within 100 D of a planet and a couple of hours from a patrol?

Or you're a merchant jumping in system with a cargo you're told has to be delivered to a research station - that's approximately a third of the way around the star from the naval base.

Or a free trader taking a consignment to a client state across the border.

You're right pirates aren't necessarily going to be equipped to go up against the navy - most armed robbers can't go up against a marine platoon either - but then again, they won't probably won't have to either.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by atpollard:
I want pirates to exist.

AT,

So do we all.

And I think everyone here has seen how piracy in the OTU is entirely possible if you simply step outside the tiny box in which the Yo-Ho-Hos and Mugwumps want to keep piracy.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[mbrinkhues]

Piracy in the Traveller universe depends a lot on how you see the Imperial navy and read some of the so-called "canon" data. A canon that is the most contradictionary and inconsistend piece of literature since the StarTrek universe(1)

Depending on what one considers valid and how one interpretes some data i.e what is an auxillary, the size and density of naval patrols vary widely. Add some simply stuff like:

+ Incompetent naval officers (2) and lots of influence taking by the local nobility who wants protection wether they need it or not

+ Have a relatively low standard of training similar to the mid-late 19th century Royal Navy or Russian Navy

+ Have the classical "prestige" problem of admirals wanting to see/show their ships, resulting in units operating in groups rather than single ship

+ Give the pirats some nukes. Typ T does not have a nuce damper IIRC neither have most SDB's

+ The MegaCorps will draw of ships too using their influence to protect their areas of interest, leaving the border regions partially stripped of ships

+ Naval officers on the pay help a lot

(1) Just some stuff:
+ Various variants of thrusters with/without fuel
+ Ship sizes (Kinuir "cruiser" vs. Midu Argashan "destroyer")
+ Changes in the Nobel system (new ranks etc)

(2) The Imperial system with it's "required noble rank" etc. sounds like the old RN with it's promotion by time in service and similar problems to me.

 

[veltyen]

Ten pirates in a speedboat with a RPG launcher are no match for the 30 mm deck gun of an old cruiser.

Funny you should say that. The thing about the speedboat is that they could be tourists or game fisherman. The cruiser is a much more identifiable target. If the cruiser just destroyed all potential pirates it would cause more havoc (and more identifiable havoc) then the pirates were.

A speedboat with 4 lads in it (driver, 2 rpgs, 1 AK) is a very common military unit in some parts of the world, and can be extremely effective, especially against civilian shipping, but also against modern navies.

You have an intrinsic assumption that a less well equipped force will face a better armed force head on. One on One, clearly identified targets, yes the cruiser wins. But that circumstance doesn't happen very often.

Now the equivalent of a speedboat attack unit is a 10 dTon launch with a missile system badly strapped to the outside.

In one of the games I ran (where the players were in a real warship) they met a slightly insane Vargr at a gas giant. The players had an antique heavy destroyer/light cruiser. The vargr was in an antique light fighter. The vargr declared that this was his Gas Giant, and anyone scooping needed to pay him tribute. The level of the tribute was low (1Cr per dTon scooped if I recall correctly, adjusted by how well armed the scoopee was). The vargr had no legal standing to declare this, but was armed.

Is this piracy?

Faced with the choice of an attack (though probably minimal and mostly ineffective) or a tiny payment (4000 Cr or so) the players chose to pay off the vargr then risk damage to their vessel.

 

[Spiderfish]

Originally posted by veltyen: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Ten pirates in a speedboat with a RPG launcher are no match for the 30 mm deck gun of an old cruiser.

Funny you should say that. The thing about the speedboat is that they could be tourists or game fisherman. The cruiser is a much more identifiable target. If the cruiser just destroyed all potential pirates it would cause more havoc (and more identifiable havoc) then the pirates were.

A speedboat with 4 lads in it (driver, 2 rpgs, 1 AK) is a very common military unit in some parts of the world, and can be extremely effective, especially against civilian shipping, but also against modern navies.

You have an intrinsic assumption that a less well equipped force will face a better armed force head on. One on One, clearly identified targets, yes the cruiser wins. But that circumstance doesn't happen very often.

Now the equivalent of a speedboat attack unit is a 10 dTon launch with a missile system badly strapped to the outside.

In one of the games I ran (where the players were in a real warship) they met a slightly insane Vargr at a gas giant. The players had an antique heavy destroyer/light cruiser. The vargr was in an antique light fighter. The vargr declared that this was his Gas Giant, and anyone scooping needed to pay him tribute. The level of the tribute was low (1Cr per dTon scooped if I recall correctly, adjusted by how well armed the scoopee was). The vargr had no legal standing to declare this, but was armed.

Is this piracy?

It sounds more like extortion

Faced with the choice of an attack (though probably minimal and mostly ineffective) or a tiny payment (4000 Cr or so) the players chose to pay off the vargr then risk damage to their vessel. </font>[/QUOTE]How did they get the money to him?

 

[travlar]

In the speedboat example, would they even hurt the cruiser?

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Kaale Dasar:
In the speedboat example, would they even hurt the cruiser?

Kaale,

I don't know. Why don't you ask the crew of USS Cole?


Have fun,
Bill

P.S. Yes, pedants, I know Cole is a DDG.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by robject:
Did I mention here that Walt Smith came up with a plausible defense of piracy some years ago? All it takes to pay expenses via piracy is to "take" one ship's boat per year (and maybe not that often).

If you did, welcome to the chorus of Bill Cameron, and dittoes from me on that as well.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Arthur Hault-Denger:

I must say, I agree with Liam that this is a terrific topic and I am thoroughly enjoying the discussion thus far!

Why, thank you Arthur!

Sigg Oddra's helpful insert:

Here's a little quote from CT:S3 that I'd missed for all these years...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition to the coded symbols, any world with a TL of 7 or 8 and a population of 6+ will probably have a base for local (planetary) naval forces (such forces will be capable of interplanetary, though not interstellar, flight). Any world with a TL of 9+ and a population of 6+ will probably have a base for local naval forces (which are capable of interstellar flight, where necessary).

I have used/ interpreted this as a standard rule for the TU since I first read it ( Many, many moons ago ).

When you look not at all the worlds that fit the TL7-8+, Pop 6+ which could sport even a brace to a squadron of 4 SDB's, armed Modular cutters, Armed Gigs, Armed Ship's Boats, Armed Pinnaces, and Slowboats--look at what it reveals:

Worlds With less than pop 6+ far outnumber these, let alone the heavily settled & (in the MT Rebellion era) hotly contested Hi pop systems!

It is in these plentiful less populated regions that raiders can hideaway, dispose loot, and infest--and forces an Imperium to use its Naval vessels for internal periodic sweeps as losses mount and insurance rates climb regionally to the ears of the Sub sector & Sector Dukes...

Originally posted by Kaale Dasar:
In the speedboat example, would they even hurt the cruiser?

Bill Cameron:

I don't know. Why don't you ask the crew of USS Cole?

In Scale, history is replete with examples of smaller assailing craft doing damage to larger ones.

Besides the USS Cole in the late 20th Century..

WW2

Guenther Prien's U-47 submarine, sinking the HMS Royal Oak Battleship in Scapa Flow 1939. U-47 far was out-massed by her target ton for ton.

Italian Frogmen with submersible torpedo mines, crippling for a time British warships in Alexandria harbor.

British submariners doing the same to the German Battleship Tirpitz in Norway.

American "PT" craft, German E-Boot, and Britsih "Motor Torpedo Boats" likewise sank vessels much larger than themselves.

And to say nothing of the topic of aircraft vs ships since 1921 with General Billy Mitchell of the US Army Air Corps..Pearl Harbor.. the smaller cheaper weapon disposing sinking, or harming the larger slower armored one.--Thats a debate for another topic on Fighters elsewhere on these boards.

 

[atpollard]

From what has been stated thus far it seems likely that piracy can exist:

1. where the TL is 6 or less

2. where the population is 5 or less

3. in the solar system beyond the 100 diameter jump limit of a world of pop 6+ and TL 7+

It also seems UNLIKELY for piracy to exist:

1. within the 100 diameter Jump limit of a world of pop 6+ and TL 7+, unless they are heavily armed pirates (like a rouge military unit).

2. In a system with a Navy Base.

Piracy could also exist where the pirates are willing to use less traditional methods (like hijacking).