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A different paradigm for naval warfare (and maybe even piracy?)

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by robject:
Did I mention here that Walt Smith came up with a plausible defense of piracy some years ago? All it takes to pay expenses via piracy is to "take" one ship's boat per year (and maybe not that often).
If you did, welcome to the chorus of Bill Cameron, and dittoes from me on that as well. </font>[/QUOTE]I have concerns with the “one ship's boat per year” scenario. Why use a multi-million dollar ship to disable another multi-million dollar ship in a dangerous space battle. Then approach and board the (God you hope) disabled ship. Then steal a small craft (because it is the only thing of value small enough to steal). Then repair your ship enough to escape.

Did Walt Smith factor the repairs to the pirate ship into his calculations?

Why not just board the ship at the downport and steal the whole thing there?

Why not just book a high passage? Then you have already “boarded” the target ship. If the goal is to steal the ships boat, then just sneak aboard the “boat” and launch when the ship gets close to the jump limit and the crew is busy preparing for the Jump? Most Small Craft are much faster than most merchant ships.

It seems that “piracy” would be a lot less dangerous and a lot more profitable WITHOUT the pirate ship.

It is the “attack ships as they exit jump space, battle and board, then jump away before help arrives” form of piracy that seems hard to justify.

If the pirates have a warship and the 500,000 people living on the planet (pop 5) have none, then why not just loot the starport, the grounded ships and the local bank? Extorting defenseless planets seems easier and safer than attacking armed merchant ships.
 
Originally posted by atpollard:
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It is the “attack ships as they exit jump space, battle and board, then jump away before help arrives” form of piracy that seems hard to justify.

If the pirates have a warship and the 500,000 people living on the planet (pop 5) have none, then why not just loot the starport, the grounded ships and the local bank? Extorting defenseless planets seems easier and safer than attacking armed merchant ships. [/QB]
AT, I think you and Bill are in agreement on these points. Everything you've listed as plausible still comes under the heading of piracy - even though it avoids running ship to ship battles. And if the target isn't armed and the pirate is, that avoids ship to ship battles to as far a the pirate is concerned.

A lot of tactics however come down to what the pirate's motivation is. If the pirate is after wealth, why bother with the tougher targets when there is a soft one about? However if the pirate is after reputation and noteriety, he may purposely go after tough targets. Hence Vargr corsairs.
 
Pirates wouldn't take on a warship unless forced to; they would stick to quick and easy targets that lack armed escorts. What predator is going to risk injury if it has a choice of prey.

And even then, if a pirate has the reputation of treating survivors with respect, the crew of a fat trader may risk surrender instead of trying to fight off a more-heavily armed corsair. Especially if they are a hired crew and have no financial ties to the cargo or ship.

Sort of makes the ship owner PC the odd man out when the wolf is breathing down the crew's neck!
 
After a sharp exchange with one of the most muggy (or is that wumpish?) of Mugwumps on another bulletin board on this same subject not too long ago, I've been reluctant to jump into this one - as a "big box Yo-Ho-Hoer" (more on that in a moment...), I tend to get frustrated with those who, IMHO, make a fundamental mistake with respect to interpreting the culture of the Third Imperium: that is, those who extrapolate Third Imperium social institutions forward from our 21st century, predominately Western mores, rather than taking the Third Imperium as it is presented, and attempting to understand the social forces from which such institutions might arise.

Piracy is a social institution, and needs to be understood in this context. With that in mind, I'm going to drop what may be a novel concept on you:

Pirates = nomads.

Once you arrive at this simple conclusion, the context explains much about the whys and wherefores of piracy.

For example, why does a pirate use a multi-million credit starship to engage in dangerous attacks on other multi-million credit vessels? Why not just sell it and retire comfortably? After all, forging title and altering transponders may be difficult but is by no means impossible, and surely there are those who would buy the starship with few questions asked.

For the same reason that a nomad warrior doesn't trade away his horses: because the nomad defines his place in the world, and confirms his status among his peers, by his prowess as a rider and raider, not as a "mere" trader of horseflesh. To the nomad the horse is a means to an end, not an end in itself. It is integral not just to the nomad's lifeways, but to his social position and his very identity.

That pirate's starship is like the nomad's horses - a means to an end, with the end in this case not just plunder but rather living defiantly outside the norms of society. Pirates inhabit a subculture where risk is its own reward, where an honest credit earned is accounted less than a bloody credit brazenly stolen. Risk-taking is integral to the pirate subculture - the more cunning or brazen the tactic, the greater the pirate's prowess among her peers. A pirate doesn't wish she was a wealthy merchant - in fact, she disdains the merchant's comfortable lifestyle.

Yes, undoubtedly a few pirates follow the course of Henry Morgan, from pirate to gentry, but those are the exceptions, not the rule. Most pirates accept - no, they embrace - the possibility of meeting their end in the cold of space in exchange for the wild thrill of the hunt, for earning the respect of their peers by their daring, tenacity, and skill, and, perhaps most important of all, living by the social norms that they create for themselves, not those which are imposed upon them.

This is why I consider myself a Yo-Ho-Hoer. Up-thread Bill Cameron [1] mentioned the idea that some pirates are essentially dumb enough to try attacking merchants ships at the 100D limit, in the very teeth of armed traders and prowling warships. Clearly there are few things more dangerous to attempt, but IMTU that's exactly why they are tried time and again - because pulling off this most dangerous of tactics earns a pirate something far more valuable than mere plunder: Reputation. Prowess. Status. Prestige.

IMTU pirates attack ships away from the main "shipping lanes" (that is, away from the 100D limit), such as intrasystem traffic. They raid settlements. They hijack starships in motion, or steal them from starports. Their favored prey are smugglers, that is, those merchants who choose to operate outside the law (read: social norm) and who are equally interested in avoiding things like patrol cruisers or customs cutters.

And they seek their prey at the 100D limit as well. They use subterfuge, from fake distress calls to posing as a patrol vessel. They work with hijackers already positioned aboard a merchant, to attack from without and within. They work in teams of multiple ships to lure away system defense boats.

And sometimes they will launch that most brazen, most daring, and most foolhardy of attacks, "unfurling the Red Jack" (pirate flags were originally red, not black) and raking a merchant's engine room with laser fire (Gunner Select programs are a must for pirates) then swarming over her hull in vac suits with breaching charges and laser rifles in hand.

(Thus do I consider myself a "big box Yo-Ho-Hoer.")

Piracy isn't practical, unless or until you see it for what it is, not about wealth but rather about the rejection of those very social forces that would make piracy an unattractive option.


[1] Bill, your discourse on the Yo-Ho-Hoers and the Mugwumps was bloody brilliant! :D
 
Originally posted by atpollard:
I have concerns with the “one ship's boat per year” scenario. Why use a multi-million dollar ship to disable another multi-million dollar ship in a dangerous space battle. Then approach and board the (God you hope) disabled ship. Then steal a small craft (because it is the only thing of value small enough to steal). Then repair your ship enough to escape.
AT,

Who said the only place to get a ship's boat is from another ship in flight?

Remember, limiting the pirates options is something Yo-Ho-Hos do out of ignorance and Mugwumps do out of cynicism.

A single stolen ship's boat can pay the bills for a year or more. Just where you steal that boat from is another kettle of fish entirely.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:

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Piracy isn't practical, unless or until you see it for what it is, not about wealth but rather about the rejection of those very social forces that would make piracy an unattractive option.
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BGG - I think you've got something there.
 
Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
Piracy isn't practical, unless or until you see it for what it is, not about wealth but rather about the rejection of those very social forces that would make piracy an unattractive option.
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BGG - I think you've got something there. </font>[/QUOTE]I like the idea.

Is the logical extension of this attitude not the expansion of piracy from a “mad dog” ship to a “terrorist nation”? In historical terms, that would liken pirates to the Mongol Hoards invading Europe to loot Rome. Then we are back to the SERENITY model of a pirate fleet boldly attacking defended star systems to loot them with impunity.
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
I thought that in the kinder and gentler days of CT, a ship which intersected the jump limit simply fell out of Jump Space at the limit.
AT,

It's always been that way even during the days of CT. Mass precipitation is not required, deep space jumps are as old as The Traveller Adventure. As for the effects of jump's temporal uncertainty, folks just didn't think about it.

Sure, we've lots and lots of color text about 'hitting the jump limit'. However, we also have jump drive's temporal uncertainty given to us in an authorial voice. Jump arrival occurs in a 33.6 hour window.

Star, planets, and moons all move. They all move vast distance in 33.6 hours too. If you don't know when you arrive, how can you 'aim' at a moving target? You can arrive anywhere between Time A and Time A+33.6 hours. Where is that jump limit going to be at Time A? Where is the jump limit going to be at Time A+33.6 hours?
</font>[/QUOTE]Eureka!
From “Jumpspace” by Mark Miller (JTAS No. 24, pg 34.)

“Entering jump is possible anywhere, but the perturbing effects of gravity make it impractical to begin a jump within a gravity field of more than certain specific limits based on size, density, and distance. The general rule of thumb is a distance of at least 100 diameters out from a world or star (including a safety margin), and ships generally move away from worlds and stars before beginning a jump. The perturbing effects of gravity preclude a ship from exiting jump space within the same distance. When ships are directed to exit jump space within a gravity field, they are precipitated out of jump space at the edge of the field instead.”
Aim for the center of the world at the center of the time window and precipitate out at EXACTLY the jump limit. There is also some indication in the article that the temporal uncertainty could be relativistic in origin. Time in Real Space is exact, time in Jump space is plus or minus – but that is NOT clearly stated.
 
BGG - I think you've got something there.
most definitely. but it seems to me that if you have an entire culture devoted to piracy as a challenge to the official norms then this would attract the official and formal attention of both the nobility and the imperial navy. pirates are not combatants, they're rag-tags who have to lurk in the corners, pick and choose their targets, and avoid formal attention. ambushing a compromised merchant or a police boat is one thing, but facing off against a light cruiser or a company of imperial marines just doesn't seem all that glorious.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />BGG - I think you've got something there.
most definitely. but it seems to me that if you have an entire culture devoted to piracy as a challenge to the official norms then this would attract the official and formal attention of both the nobility and the imperial navy. pirates are not combatants, they're rag-tags who have to lurk in the corners, pick and choose their targets, and avoid formal attention. ambushing a compromised merchant or a police boat is one thing, but facing off against a light cruiser or a company of imperial marines just doesn't seem all that glorious. </font>[/QUOTE]Well - terrorism has attracted attention of the world's societies today - we still seem to have a heck of a time stamping it out. Largely because a huge culture has decided to support it (even if their governments do not.)

Corsairs near the borders may have the same types of advantages granted from "civilized" societies providing aid and comfort - officially or otherwise. Some may be rag-tag, others may be highly organized. DOTS (Depends On The Situation)
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
I have concerns with the “one ship's boat per year” scenario. Why use a multi-million dollar ship to disable another multi-million dollar ship in a dangerous space battle. Then approach and board the (God you hope) disabled ship. Then steal a small craft (because it is the only thing of value small enough to steal). Then repair your ship enough to escape.
AT,

Who said the only place to get a ship's boat is from another ship in flight?

Remember, limiting the pirates options is something Yo-Ho-Hos do out of ignorance and Mugwumps do out of cynicism.

A single stolen ship's boat can pay the bills for a year or more. Just where you steal that boat from is another kettle of fish entirely.

Have fun,
Bill
</font>[/QUOTE]And dumping the ship's boat to stave off the pirates is safer than fighting them. THAT is how they get the boats, as a "here, have this instead of us..." offering.
 
Star, planets, and moons all move. They all move vast distance in 33.6 hours too. If you don't know when you arrive, how can you 'aim' at a moving target? You can arrive anywhere between Time A and Time A+33.6 hours. Where is that jump limit going to be at Time A? Where is the jump limit going to be at Time A+33.6 hours?
well, actually, terra (for example) in 34 hours transits 283 diameters. if the incoming ship aims for the dead center of where terra might be in that time period it has about .67 chance of precipitating somewhere on the 100d sphere - and that's for an approach fully perpendicular to planetary motion. a parallel approach can hit 100d every time.

if the target is a world orbiting a gas giant then hitting the GG 100d is kind of guaranteed - but that's a big area to patrol, up to 43 light seconds out. takes an M4 boat 7 hours to transit 22 LS, 10 hours to transit 43 LS.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Star, planets, and moons all move. They all move vast distance in 33.6 hours too. If you don't know when you arrive, how can you 'aim' at a moving target? You can arrive anywhere between Time A and Time A+33.6 hours. Where is that jump limit going to be at Time A? Where is the jump limit going to be at Time A+33.6 hours?
well, actually, terra (for example) in 34 hours transits 283 diameters. if the incoming ship aims for the dead center of where terra might be in that time period it has about .67 chance of precipitating somewhere on the 100d sphere - and that's for an approach fully perpendicular to planetary motion. a parallel approach can hit 100d every time.

if the target is a world orbiting a gas giant then hitting the GG 100d is kind of guaranteed - but that's a big area to patrol, up to 43 light seconds out. takes an M4 boat 7 hours to transit 22 LS, 10 hours to transit 43 LS.
</font>[/QUOTE]That's assuming the aim is near perfect over several light years. When you think about the numbers we're talking about, getting within an AU or so would be a pretty spectacular achievement.

Since this is firmly in the game realm, in the cannon OTU do ships routinely come out right on the 100D limit? or is there a range they come out at? I don't know so I'm asking.
 
When you think about the numbers we're talking about, getting within an AU or so would be a pretty spectacular achievement.
yes, it would be, if jump involved some kind of polar coordinate. personally I've always thought of it as being cartesian. "jump at x1 y1 z1, precipitate at x2 y2 z2." don't know if that's cannon or not, don't always pay attention to cannon.
 
Originally posted by atpollard:
I have concerns with the “one ship's boat per year” scenario. Why use a multi-million dollar ship to disable another multi-million dollar ship in a dangerous space battle. Then approach and board the (God you hope) disabled ship. Then steal a small craft (because it is the only thing of value small enough to steal). Then repair your ship enough to escape.

Did Walt Smith factor the repairs to the pirate ship into his calculations?
In a word, AT--yes.

Why not just board the ship at the downport and steal the whole thing there?
I believe I called it "Hijacking" and = (equal to) of piracy.

Why not just book a high passage? Then you have already “boarded” the target ship. If the goal is to steal the ships boat, then just sneak aboard the “boat” and launch when the ship gets close to the jump limit and the crew is busy preparing for the Jump? Most Small Craft are much faster than most merchant ships.

It seems that “piracy” would be a lot less dangerous and a lot more profitable WITHOUT the pirate ship.
Ah, perhaps the misconception here is apparent dangerousness vs Profits? Pirates measure these in the scales--to otherwise is to invite a short career and "a fast walk thru the Little closet" (slang for airlock-execution). Risk in the career choice is ominipresent, and must be weighed in the balance by the dangers always. Method of attack is of course based on opportunity, traffic patterns, Local law enforcement, local corruption levels (or was that law level? LOL) patrols or none, and of course the Pirate's own resources and lack thereof.

It is the “attack ships as they exit jump space, battle and board, then jump away before help arrives” form of piracy that seems hard to justify.

If the pirates have a warship and the 500,000 people living on the planet (pop 5) have none, then why not just loot the starport, the grounded ships and the local bank? Extorting defenseless planets seems easier and safer than attacking armed merchant ships. [/QB]
Again, I state, (and Bill has) planetary raiding is piracy as well.
 
Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
Piracy isn't practical, unless or until you see it for what it is, not about wealth but rather about the rejection of those very social forces that would make piracy an unattractive option.
-clip-
BGG - I think you've got something there. </font>[/QUOTE]I like the idea.

Is the logical extension of this attitude not the expansion of piracy from a “mad dog” ship to a “terrorist nation”? In historical terms, that would liken pirates to the Mongol Hoards invading Europe to loot Rome. Then we are back to the SERENITY model of a pirate fleet boldly attacking defended star systems to loot them with impunity.
</font>[/QUOTE]Congratulations, you now can envision reasoning in part as a social dynamic of the Great LOOTING (my words) 1116-1129 by the Vargr extants into the Shattered 3rd Imperium!

(WARNING: This is not a species Rant against Vargr, Vargr social dynamics, or Vargr Corsair's per-se--merely using a OTU Historical example- ;) )

BGG:
Brilliant assessment of Piracy's motivations! Kudos!
 
Based on Flykiller's comment above, I took the time to compute just how much volume of space a world such as earth, travelling at 67,000 miles could traverse in a 33.6 hour time span. Then I calculated just how much of the space the world actually creates as the "exclusion zone" where it would precipitate a ship out of space at the 100 diameter limit. I was surprised at what I determined to be the case. By my math, a ship can come out either 11.8 hours early, or 11.8 hours late - and still be within the 100 diameter range of an earth like world travelling at earthlike speeds (ie, in an orbit at 1 AU with a sun that is one SOL mass). The problem? How does one determine the exact spread of time that the ship remains in space for? I know it is +/- 10%, but how do you determine that? Is it a "roll 1d6 and 2d6-2. On the 1d6 roll, the ship exits jump space early on a 1-3, or late on a 4-6. The average die roll of 2d6 is 7. Minus 2, becomes a 5. So the average time span using THOSE rules would be roughly +/-5% 1/6th of the time. In order to Miss the earth's 100 diameter limit entirely - one would have to miss one's planned exit point by roughly +/- 7%. On 2d6-2 - one would need a 9 or higher to miss the 100 planetary diameter limits.

Note that this applies ONLY to a world with a size of 8 in orbit with a velocity of 67,000 miles per second (the speed at which earth rotates around our sun). This value would change depending on whether the planet in question is moving slower or faster. It would also depend on whether the world is larger or smaller. A faster world with a smaller diameter has a MUCH smaller window of opportunity for hitting its 100 diameter limit than one that is both larger than earth and moving more slowly.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />When you think about the numbers we're talking about, getting within an AU or so would be a pretty spectacular achievement.
yes, it would be, if jump involved some kind of polar coordinate. personally I've always thought of it as being cartesian. "jump at x1 y1 z1, precipitate at x2 y2 z2." don't know if that's cannon or not, don't always pay attention to cannon. </font>[/QUOTE]Polar or rectangular coordinates are essentially the same, as a single point by definition is equal to itself. Since you can convert Polar into rectangular and vice versa - they are functionally the same ;)
 
Originally posted by Hal:
Based on Flykiller's comment above, I took the time to compute just how much volume of space a world such as earth, travelling at 67,000 miles could traverse in a 33.6 hour time span.
Hal,

Don't forget Sol's vector too. That makes the 33.6 hour path longer and more oddly shaped.

Fly is correct in pointing out that a jump course perpendicular to a planet's orbital path would allow a ship in jump space to contact the planet's 100D limit with 100% certainty. The trick now becomes reaching a point before you jump that allows you to plot a straight line course that will intersect a planet's path in such a manner.

As it stands in canon now:

1 - Jump courses, when 'plotted back' or 'transposed' into normal space, are straight lines.
2 - Ships in jump retain the normal space vector they had prior to jump.

Number 1 is from GT. Number 2 is explicity stated in MWM's JTAS essay. Canon can change however.

Vector matching deserves some explanation. It has been mentioned in MWM's essay, has been featured in published adventures, and figured prominently in TNE's 'low-fuel' setting. In order to sidestep the 'universal frame of reference' problems this creates, I've suggested that the vector that OTU navigators worry about is the vector of the target system as seen at 'rest' in the departure system.

Seen from Hefry, Regina would have a vector of X and, seen from Ruie, Regina would have a vector of Y. Both vectors are 'true' depending on the observers frame of reference. When jumping to Regina from Hefry, a navigator would only need to take vector X into account. When jump to Regina from Ruie, a navigator would only need to take vector Y into account.

Just to reiterate, to approach a planet's 33.6 hour path on a course perpendicular to that path, your straight line jump course must be perpendicular to that 33.6 hour path for it's entire length. That may be possible in some cases at certain times. It will not be possible in a vast majority of cases however.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Number 1 is from GT. Number 2 is explicity stated in MWM's JTAS essay. Canon can change however.
Number 1 isn't exactly canon, then, bill... Canon for GT, but not for the rest of Traveller. Unless MWM has publicly changed his attitude from his 1996 statement that GT was "non-authoritative." Further, CT points out that nothing can affect a ship in jump-space, so logic says it doesn't matter a whit whether the corse is straight, curved, corkscrew, or stairstep, so long as it's not within 100D at either end.

And number 2 isn't entered into canon (that JTAS article was specifically a variant) until TNE.

so... off to check some data... Hmm... a 200d window (which would be T-100 to T'-100 is the same size as 24 hours of movement for Earth.

For a world in a further orbit, that's also a slower orbit.... Now, hitting mercury would be a nightmare.... it moves faster, and is smaller.

As to time taken... various rules have various amounts of specification... 150+6d6 hours is what I typically use (SSOM, IIRC). So that centrally clusters to a typical of 168-174 plateau.
So, for most hab-zone worlds, that means most ships can just aim for the central point, and will precipitate out reasonably close
 
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