Adjusting Tech Level for Traveller Campaigns

[Shonner]

This may have been discussed to death already. But I was curious.

Do other game systems for Traveller try to change the Tech Level of the Third Imperium to better match their own game system's Tech Level chart?

In Traveller, there are lots of nobles with swords. That shouldn't mean that Tech Levels need to be brought down to The Three Musketeers level.

Also in Traveller, there are black globe generators available. So that shouldn't mean that Tech Levels need to be brought up to The Ancients level.

Do other game systems explain why these situations occur? Or do they try to "fix" Traveller to give it some technological sense to the outsider looking into the OTU?

 

[Whipsnade]

This may have been discussed to death already. But I was was curious. Do other game systems for Traveller try to change the Tech Level of the Third Imperium to better match their own game system's Tech Level chart?

Shonner,

G:T fit Traveller's tech level progression chart to the GURPS tech level chart, but I don't any other versions did. Of course, Traveller hasn't been "translated" into many other RPG systems.

In Traveller, there are lots of nobles with swords. That shouldn't mean that Tech Levels need to be brought down to The Three Musketeers level.

Now I understand your question. Nobles swanning about with swords is a cultural thing in the Third Imperium and not a technological restriction. While the Imperium can and does make all sorts of advanced personal weaponry, nobles carry swords due to tradition. After all, Dulinor painted the Imperial Throne Room a delicate shade of red with a magnum revolver and not with a cutlass. (And his use of a revolver instead of an automatic was traditional too!)

[quot]Also in Traveller, there are black globe generators available. So that shouldn't mean that Tech Levels need to be brought up to The Ancients level.[/quote]

There's a different in-game explanation for that. Black globes can be built at TL15, so the TL15 Imperium routinely manufactures them for various uses. Prior to developing both TL15 and black globe technology, the Imperium used relic generators they found in a cache of Ancient equipment on a world in the Spinward Marches; Knorbes IIRC.

In this case, when the technology was out of the Imperium's reach, the globes were still available as relics from a previous high tech civilization.

Do other game systems explain why these situations occur? Or do they try to "fix" Traveller to give it some technological sense to the outsider looking into the OTU?

I don't quite understand that question. What do you think needs to be fixed? Are you wondering why different worlds have different tech levels?


Regards,
Bill

 

[Shonner]

Well, to an outside observer of the Traveller universe, seeing mainframe computers with punch tape being considered high tech (no one knew what high tech computers would be like 30 years ago) and sentient robots in the same room (something we still are no closer to having 30 years later) sharing that same tech level, I wonder if it puts some future players off a bit.

After reading through the Traveller history and library data, one starts understanding that the 3rd Imperium should not be compared to now. It is a cultural and/or lawful thing to not build sentient robots but keep them "low-tech" and that mainframes should do all the grunt work for scientists and doctors who can operate them. And high-level technology (matter transport and BGG's) are available to average users because it was built by someone else and the Imperium happens to be the current owner.

Some players are probably used to reading "the wheel was invented", "then this came along", "and then people went to the moon", etc. on their tech charts. Kind of a linear progression with no missing gaps to ask "ok, how did sword fighters and pistol whippers get to this level?"

I like the idea of knives and swords being used on bad guys in vacc suits. Just poke a hole. No need to accidently breach a hull using something stronger to kill the guy.

Today's "pirates" near Kenya etc. all have machettes as well as their AK's. So some weapons have their use when boarding ships.

I have another question about Traveller campaigns 30 years ago and now. In 1979-80, players were playing thieves a lot. Kind of like D&D. But instead of robbing a castle, they were robbing a starport.

Do today's Traveller players (some are still the original ones) still prefer this kind of role-play? Or are there more cool things to do in campaigns that involve more science maybe? Battlestar Galactica was a drama that happened to take place in space. Almost no science. While Star Trek is always throwing in bullshitium devices for their plots. I'm just wondering where today's Traveller players are taking the game to?

 

[rancke]

Well, to an outside observer of the Traveller universe, seeing mainframe computers with punch tape being considered high tech (no one knew what high tech computers would be like 30 years ago) and sentient robots in the same room (something we still are no closer to having 30 years later) sharing that same tech level, I wonder if it puts some future players off a bit.

I think you've gotten some wrong notions about Traveller technology. Traveler computers were never punch tape mainframes, although they were very large (The only tapes I can recall were jump tapes, an early notion that was quietly forgotten after a while). The size have since been handwaved/retconned into including terminal space, so the discrepancy between real world computers and Traveller computers is not as big as one might think. It has been suggested that the effort that in our world went into computer technology went into space technology in the TU and that the chip wasn't invented until much later. I don't think anyone has come up with a totally consistent explanation, though. Like the flat universe it's something that's glossed over.

Sentient robots are experimental at TL15, and some of the experiments did not go well ;-), so sentient robots are either non-existent or rare. very expensive one-of-a-kind prototypes.

After reading through the Traveller history and library data, one starts understanding that the 3rd Imperium should not be compared to now. It is a cultural and/or lawful thing to not build sentient robots but keep them "low-tech" and that mainframes should do all the grunt work for scientists and doctors who can operate them.

It's a cultural thing (in the Imperium) not to equip unsupervised robots with weapons. And that's even done at the member world level; the Imperium itself does not have such laws.

And high-level technology (matter transport and BGG's) are available to average users because it was built by someone else and the Imperium happens to be the current owner.

I don't know what BGG stands for, but matter transmitters are way beyond Imperial technology.

I have another question about Traveller campaigns 30 years ago and now. In 1979-80, players were playing thieves a lot. Kind of like D&D. But instead of robbing a castle, they were robbing a starport.

Do today's Traveller players (some are still the original ones) still prefer this kind of role-play? Or are there more cool things to do in campaigns that involve more science maybe? Battlestar Galactica was a drama that happened to take place in space. Almost no science. While Star Trek is always throwing in bullshitium devices for their plots. I'm just wondering where today's Traveller players are taking the game to?

I think it was Loren who once explained that JTAS had lots of caper adventures and amber zones because that's what hopeful contributors contributed.

My own adventures always allow the PCs to have the moral high ground (if they wish it ;-). I do on occasion enjoy putting PCs up against unreasonable governments and unfair laws. I can't think of many adventures for JTAS Online where the PCs are out and out criminals.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

And high-level technology (matter transport and BGG's) are available to average users because it was built by someone else and the Imperium happens to be the current owner.

Shonner,

Hans answered your post far better than I could, but I'll tackle this one.

As he already told you, matter transport is wayyyyyy beyond anyone's tech level in the OTU except for one strange dude who lives in his own pocket universe. You're players may get to meet him and they may get to loot a few artifacts, but most GMs never even think of introducing Yaskodray to their campaigns for the same reasons many D&D GMs never introduce gods and astral planes.

As for black globe generators, your players aren't going to buy one. They're top shelf, top secret military hardware. Your players may be issued one, but the authorities are going to want it back.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Shonner]

I don't know what BGG stands for, but matter transmitters are way beyond Imperial technology.

Black globe generators. I'm probably using the wrong abbreviation.

 

[Shonner]

Thanks for the answers. I've been away from Traveller for a very long time because of real life. Just now getting caught up on things since New Era was released back when. It was me buying the Serenity RPG books recently that got me going through my old Traveller stuff I had in boxes. Then that triggered everything else and now I've been re-buying a lot of stuff I used to have.

 

[Whipsnade]

Black globe generators. I'm probably using the wrong abbreviation.

Shonner,

You didn't use the wrong abbreviation. Actually I don't know if there is one!

Hope Hans and I were some help.


Regards,
Bill

 

[aramis]

Hans: Matter transport is listed as TL 16 on page 87 of The Traveller Book.

 

[rancke]

Hans: Matter transport is listed as TL 16 on page 87 of The Traveller Book.

So it is. I never noticed that before. I don't think I've ever heard matter transport mentioned in any Traveller connection before. IIRC Grandfather used portals technology.

MT: Referee's Companion paints a more detailed picture. TL16 is experimental matter transport (Raw materials only). TL17 is still experimental, but now allows for matter transmutation. TL18 is still experimental, but now portals technology shows up as a prototype. At TL19, regional range portals technology supercedes matter transportation[*]. At TL20, range becomes continental. At TL21, size of portals can accomodate starships, but no improvement of range is mentioned. Maybe they are used for getting ships from surface to orbit.


[*] An alternate explanation of the chart is that portals are a development of matter transportation.


(This provides a good example of what I mean when I claim that there's only one OTU at any given time. CT didn't describe a universe where full-fledged matter transportation shows up at TL16 and MT another universe where it doesn't show up until TL19. CT just provided a more simplified picture of the same reality that MT provided a more detailed picture of.)


Hans

 

[mbrinkhues]

Computers are the easiest to explain. Even more so by looking into MT or TNE where they split up "Computer" in various sub-elements and reduce the size.

It also helps if one does not equate the 4-core Intel/AMD toy under the desk with real computers. For the job they are doing Travellers systems are rather small.

Oh and don't diss tapes. Tape drives are still THE most common backup media for a reason with development going on for standards like LTO. And no, RAID is NOT! a Backup!

 

[Maccat]

There was some mention about the Imperium's use of BGGs was from finding a cache of 2000 of them, in Kinunir i think. Agreed on the cultural thing for the swords, but then settling disagreements through duels is the idea. A good duellist with a sword will "succeed" more lol. Which was a problem in the US for quite awhile as I recall.

The striking thing for me with the tech levels is the variety of them, throughout space. There was a great write up of the effects of the long night (tech collapse) in Melieu 0 for T4 (traveller 4 er). Key to how far each world descended was if they kept fusion technology, if not then had they any radioactives *left* on world to use for fission, then solar, were there any petroleum reserves, elsewise it's back to rocks and fire. Then beyond maintaining the tech base, they may have progressed.

The First Imperium, the Vilani one maintained a monopoly on technology, especially star (jump drive) technology, and was centrist/monolithic, with caste systems etc. the Second had higher tech, was able to conquer the first, but unable to maintain/run it, hence the long night.

As regards translating them to other systems, the original traveller didn't even have the Imperium described, so the whole ruleset was more of a scratch-work for *any* interstellar adventure. If you wanted laser pistols or blasters, fine, or the alien-movie like stuff, that fine as well, heck even Zardoz lol.

 

[Shonner]

I first read about Tech Level G matter transport in the original 3-book rules 30 years ago. Later it came to be known that the Ancients may have been involved with developing it.

 

[Shonner]

Oh and don't diss tapes. Tape drives are still THE most common backup media for a reason with development going on for standards like LTO. And no, RAID is NOT! a Backup!

There's a big tech difference between punch tape and tape drives. No one uses punch tape now except for museum displays.

 

[aramis]

There's a big tech difference between punch tape and tape drives. No one uses punch tape now except for museum displays.

Actually, quite a few "historic" mills and knitting machines have punch cards and/or punch tapes. it's still legacy hardware, but it's also still in use.

And some divisions of elections still use punch tape. Last I heard, NYC still was required by law to continue to use the punchtape records in their voting machines.

 

[ThunderChilde]

Just a comment. I work in a Data Center. Big Iron Country. 1.6 TB LTO-4 tapes are used in a couple ATL's here, more common are the 800 GB LTO-3's.

I had the privelegde of operating a turn of the last century "automated" bolt and nut milling machine. Bronze punch cards, you fed in octogonal bar stock, made sure the right tool heads were in place; and it spit out matched bolts and nuts into seperate bins. It was a marvelous device to see in action. It did make a fair bit of racket, and vibrations, hence the bronze punch cards.

ATL, Automated Tape Library.