Book 2 Plus

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
If I follow you correctly, its rating is reduced by half (i.e. 6 to 3) for every multiplication of the tonnage, right? And 6,000 dtons will yeald a rating of 2?

Correct.

It's something I first noticed when I was thinking about cargo ships carrying massive cargo pods which reduce their drive performance.

So IMTU the MegaCorps do operate 12kt jump 1 bulk traders on the mains.

 

[Golan2072]

So, to combine your tables from this thread with big hulls:

hull A B C D E F G H J K L M N P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
100   2 4 6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
200   1 2 3 4 5 6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
300   - 1 2 2 3 4 4 5 6 6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
400   - 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 - - - - - - - - - - -
500   - - 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 - - - - - - -
600   - - 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6 - - - -
700   - - - 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 - - -
800   - - - 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 5 6 - - -
900   - - - - 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 5 6 - -
1000  - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 4 5 6 - -
1100  - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 4 5 - -
1200  - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 5 6 -
1300  - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 4 6 -
1400  - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 4 5 -
1500  - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 4 5 -
1600  - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 5 -
1700  - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 3 4 -
1800  - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 4 6
1900  - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 4 6
2000  - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 4 6
2100  - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 5
2200  - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 5
2300  - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 5
2400  - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 5
2500  - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 4
2600  - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 4
2700  - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 4
2800  - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 4
2900  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 4
3000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 4
3100  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3
3200  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3
3300  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3
3400  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3
3500  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 2 3
3600  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 2 3
3700  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 2 3
3800  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 2 3
3900  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 2 3
4000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 2 3
5000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 2
6000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 2
7000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 2
8000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 2
9000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 2
10000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2
11000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2
12000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1

Following this table's logic, hulls up to 23,000 dtons could be built using Z-Drives and having Drive-Ratings of 1; ships of 24,000 dtons or greater are impossible at TL16 or less.

Hull Size TLs

TLs      Max Tonnage
8        1,000
9-11     5,000
12-14    12,000
15-16    23,000

These TLs are, of course, for high-acceleration (1-G or more) ships; space stations could be built VERY big even at low TLs, though they'll require one PowerPlant "step" per 1,000 dtons, i.e. a 1,000-dton space station requires PowerPlant-A, a 2,000-dton spacestation requires PowerPlant-B and so on. Low-acceleration ships (one TL "step" above the high-acceleration one) use the same drive table but divide all G values by 10 (i.e. 0.1-G instead of 1-G, 0.2-G instead of 2-G and so on).

The drives themselves are limited by TL: drives A-H are TL9, J-N are TL10, P-U are TL11, and V-Z are TL12.

 

[mike wightman]

I can't believe I didn't extend the table like that myself

Following this table's logic, hulls up to 23,000 dtons could be built using Z-Drives and having Drive-Ratings of 1; ships of 24,000 dtons or greater are impossible at TL16 or less.

Not quite

A 101t hull has to use 200t drives, a 1001t hull has to use the 1100t entry, so a 12001t hull would need to use a Z+ drive, which doesn't exist - yet

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I can't believe I didn't extend the table like that myself

I can't believe you didn't either

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Following this table's logic, hulls up to 23,000 dtons could be built using Z-Drives and having Drive-Ratings of 1; ships of 24,000 dtons or greater are impossible at TL16 or less.

Not quite

A 101t hull has to use 200t drives, a 1001t hull has to use the 1100t entry, so a 12001t hull would need to use a Z+ drive, which doesn't exist - yet </font>[/QUOTE]Not quite not quite

I think what Employee 2-4601 means is for us to extend the Z drive column down as 1s for as many places as the 6s through 2s do in a similar progression, maxing out at 24,000tons.

I really like the hull TL breakdown too and the rationalization of non-manuvering hulls.

 

[mike wightman]

If I extend my table using the drive potential formula I used to make up the rest of the extrapolations then I get the 7kt through 12kt with a drive rating of 1.

The Y drive should max out at 8kt.

Like this:

hull  A B C D E F G H J K L M N P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
100   2 4 6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
200   1 2 3 4 5 6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
300   - 1 2 2 3 4 4 5 6 6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
400   - 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 - - - - - - - - - - -
500   - - 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 - - - - - - -
600   - - 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6 - - - -
700   - - - 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 - - -
800   - - - 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 5 6 - - -
900   - - - - 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 5 6 - -
1000  - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 4 5 6 - -
1100  - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 4 5 - -
1200  - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 5 6 -
1300  - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 4 6 -
1400  - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 4 5 -
1500  - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 4 5 -
1600  - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 5 -
1700  - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 3 4 -
1800  - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 4 6
1900  - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 4 6
2000  - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 4 6
2100  - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 5
2200  - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 5
2300  - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 5
2400  - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 5
2500  - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 4
2600  - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3 4
2700  - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 4
2800  - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 4
2900  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 4
3000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 4
3100  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3
3200  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3
3300  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3
3400  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 3
3500  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 2 3
3600  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 2 3
3700  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 2 3
3800  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 2 3
3900  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 2 3
4000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 2 3
5000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 2
6000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 2
7000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1
8000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1
9000  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1
10kt  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1
11kt  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1
12kt  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1

 

[far-trader]

Ah, I see I think, two different tables/forumlae being used. I guess the second one jives closest to Book 2? What was the idea behind the rationale of the other one then?

 

[Golan2072]

My tables were more "guesstimated"; Siggs use an exact formula, that is the difference, and thus his table is more accurate.

 

[Jame]

My note: to a certain extent, drives can be doubled up, but not in a way that allows for larger hulls (my house rule - I never did figure out how to extend the hulls).

 

[Golan2072]

A few more things that we need to work on:
- Black Globes in LBB2 terms (for A1: Kinunir)
- Particle Accelerators in LBB2 terms (for A1: Kinunir)
- Bay/"Heavy" (mini-spinal) Weapons
- Drop-Capsule Launchers (for A1: Kinunir)
- Integrating with The Oz's Small Craft Rules (1/2A engines for starships?)
- Clear missile and missile-magazine rules
- Planetoids in LBB2

Then I'll integrate the fruits of this thread with my bits-n'-pieces of LBB2 addition (mostly additional facilities such as laboratories etc) and try to create a united draft of the LBB2 Extention.

 

[Golan2072]

Weapons so far:

Beam Laser Turret: 1 hit.
Pulse Laser Turret: 2 hits, DM-2 to attack-roll.
Beam Laser Bay: 6 Hits, 1 Critical DM+2 to attack-roll.
Pulse Laser Bay: 8 Hits, 1 Critical.
Heavy Laser: 10 Hits, 2 Criticals, ignores 4 points of armor.
HE (standard) Missile: 3 hits.
Focused Blast/AP Missile (double cost): 3 hits, but ignores 2 points of armor.
Heavy Missile (Bay Only): 6 hits, ignores 2 points of armor.
Nuclear Missile: 10 hits, 4 criticals, 6 radiation, ignores 4 points of armor.
EMP Missile: 4 "Radiation" (but ignore Crew Hits), ignores 3 points of armor.
Plasma Turret: 2 hits, ignores 1 point of armor.
Fusion Turret: 2 hits, 1 radiation, ignores 2 points of armor.
Particle Accelerator Turret: 2 hits, 3 radiation, ignores 4 points of armor.
Kinetic Kill Turret: 2 Hits, DM+2 to attack-roll.

Bays take 5 hardpoints each; Heavy Weapons take 10 hardpoints each; the Power Plant's letter must be greater from the Manouver Drive letter by one per Heavy Weapon installed - e.g. a 5,000-dton ship with 3 Heavy Weapons and a W-drive will need a Z-PowerPlant.

Another note: armor absorbs "normal" hits first and radiation later; criticals ignore armor.

 

[Mickazoid]

I'd be glad to take the text of the draft and publish up a near-perfect canon pdf with fonts, graphs, tables, even art, etc. if that'd be helpful or of interest.

 

[Golan2072]

Thanks, Mickazoid! That will be helpful, though it will take some time to get there, as several rule isues are yet to be ironed out.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:

I wish to extend LBB2 design options, but to keep the core compatible). If you alter the drive tables, then there will be no need of compound drives.

A compromise: alter the TLs of the LBB2 drives so that drives A-H are TL9, J-N are TL10, P-U are TL11, and V-Z is TL12; then add drives beyond Z (I'd call them the "I" series, for "Improved", marked IA, IB, IC and so on) that will be TL13+.

...which brings us back to the intent of post #1 in this topic...

 

[Golan2072]

Sigg, any comments about my weapon types?

 

[jrients]

E 2-4601, how much tonnage do you allocate for fire control on your bays and heavy weapons?

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Sigg, any comments about my weapon types?

I'd go along with some of it, but how to handle armour in LBB2 still remains my biggest bugbear.

I still like the idea of variable damage in ship to ship combat - my players like to roll damage dice, fixed damage is too wargamist for them.

Here ara a couple of thoughts I've had.

Plasma and fusion guns - why not adapt what's written in Mercenary, and have plasma A guns etc. with increasing TL making them lighter and rapid pulse (I would still make energy weapons close range only).

Use the deckplans of the Kinunir, Gazelle, and SDB to determine some of the extra weapon sizes.

The drop capsule launcher for the Kinunir appears to be 2t + 1t per launch tube + 0.5t per extra drop pod.

The particle accelerator is described as a turret rather than barbette - I still think a barbette could be a way to mount extra weapons on military ships above the hardpoint limitation.

The missile "bay" on the Kinunir is supposed to be two triple turrets, but with a magazine and reloading hoists.
So how about if the Kinunir can fire all eighteen of its ready missiles in one go (each triple turret has nine ready missiles) and can then reload for next turn.
The magazine is about twenty tons and the "turret" areas are about six tons each.

So that's sixteen tons per "bay".

The barbettes on the Gazelle are not five tons in size, they are only the size of a 1t turret, which is why I suggested that the barbette tonnage is actually used to reinforce the hull to allow more weapons to be carried.

The SDB has two 16t missile magazines - these could be employed the same way as I've suggested for the Kinunir.

Thus a missile bay becomes a triple launcher, firing nine missiles per turn, plus a magazine, for a total of sixteen tons.

It costs one hardpoint for the launch tubes...

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I'd go along with some of it, but how to handle armour in LBB2 still remains my biggest bugbear.

I'd make one point of armor absorb one "hit", with Radiation hits being absorbed last and Criticals not being absorbed at all. One possibility would be to construct a table taking into account three armor types - Light (10% of tonnage), Medium (20% of tonnage) and Heavy (40% of tonnage) - as well as the ship's size, similar to your previously-posted tables. The end result will be a number of absorbed hits per attack.

I still like the idea of variable damage in ship to ship combat - my players like to roll damage dice, fixed damage is too wargamist for them.

The approach taken by CT is that the number of dice (in personal combat) or hits (in ship combat) is fixed, but their result - that is, the amount of attribute damage (in personal combat) or the damaged system (in ship combat) is determined randomly. Also remember that some systems (such as hull) cannot be hit more than once. Two rolls per attack - one to hit and one for exact damage or allocation - are enough; another roll might just complicate things, especially when multi-hit weapons are involved.

Plasma and fusion guns - why not adapt what's written in Mercenary, and have plasma A guns etc. with increasing TL making them lighter and rapid pulse (I would still make energy weapons close range only).

I'll probably use a scale of 10 ground-combat damage-dice per 1 ship hit, so ship energy weapons will probably be a bit more powerful than ground-vehicle ones (but will probably use a smaller blast radious, as focus of energy over long ranges is needed). I'd just use normal turrets for them, but implement a system of "slots" (like you've suggested in a previous thread), with each triple turret having 6 slots, each LBB2 weapon using 2 slots, each ground heavy weapon (say, you want to install a VRF-gauss on your Type-S) taking one slot, and each High-Energy weapon taking 3 slots. Tonnage will be as for normal turrets; cost will be based on HG.

Range-wise, I'd use a range-band system instead of "full" vectors, with five ranges: Close, Short, Medium, Long and Very Long. Attack-roll DMs will be based on range, ala LBB1 (but with no armor-penetration DMs - armor will absorb "hits"). High-Energy weapons will work perfectly in Close Range, be OK in Short Range, will suck on Medium Range and will not work on Long and Very Long Ranges; Lasers will work perfectly in Close and Short Ranges, will work OK in Medium Range, will suck on Long Range and will not work in Very Long Range; missiles will such on Close Range but will work well on all other ranges; Particles will work well on Close, Short and Medium ranges and will semi-suck on Long and Very Long ranges; Kinetic Kill weapons will only work on Close Range.

 

[Golan2072]

Here is my preliminary attack-roll DM table for Range Band Combat:

Weapon        Close  Short  Medium  Long  V. Long
Kinetic Kill   +4     no      no     no      no
Beam Laser     +2     +0      +0     -2      -4
Pulse Laser    +0     -2      -2     -4      -6
Plasma/Fusion  +2     +0      -4     no      no
Missile        -2     -1      +0     +0      -2
Particle       +2     +2      +1     -1      -4

Note that the weapon's "heaviness" (i.e. bay as opposed to turret) does not effect its chance to hit a target, but does effect its ability to bypass armor and, ofcourse, its amount of damage.

 

[Golan2072]

Computer- and Sensor-wise, I'm leaning towards using the LBB2 tonnage and price of "computers" BUT interpreting these values as representing the ship's entire electronics system, an integrated network combining several computer nodes with various sensors and communication systems, rather than LBB2's original vision of one big, monolithic mainframe. The name "computer" would be the commonly-used term, referring to the part of the system that is most interacted with AND that integrates and proccesses the data recieved by the sensors.

I'd make the computer-core itself have a cost and displacement of 5% of the LBB2 computer system.

This approach has four main advantages: first, it works with existing LBB2 designs; second, it is relatively simple; third, it fixes the "ultra-big-and-expensive-computers" issue of CT; and fourth, it fits with the HG approach of computers helping you to hit the target (which could imply that "computer" actually means, among other things, "sensors"). It has two disadvantages: first, it is less detailed than other approaches; and second, it "ties up" the sensors to the Computer so that you can't upgrade one system without upgrading the other.

 

[Golan2072]

Regarding ship hit-location tables, should we have seperate tables for small craft, starships and non-starship ala LBB2, with addition three radiation tables for these ship classes as in SS3: Missiles (JTAS#21), or should we use a HG-style "Exterior, Interior, Radiation" table (but using LBB2 rolls, i.e. 1-12 only) and just tell the player to ignore results that do not exist on the ship (i.e. Jump Drive on a non-starship)?