Carbines vs. Rifles

[dnacowboy]

Speaking as someone with a limited knowledge of ballistics, but a fairly substantial knowledge of M16 vs M4 firing I can tell you a couple of things.

1. The main difference between the M4 and M16 on the range is the M16 has a flatter trajectory at mid-ranges (150 to 200 meters), besides the fact that the M16 is a bitch to lug around.

2. Don't worry about the M4s and M16s in the inventory being "shot out" we keep buying new ones. The unit I deployed with was issued 700 brand new M4s.

3. Current 5.56 rds will punch through Class III body armor (and even Class IV, depending on the manufacturer). Our bullets will cleanly punch through the armor issued to the Iraqi Army, but not the armor issued to us.

4. Knives and other blades are great in the modern battlefield because for some reason people are more afraid of getting cut than shot. Go figure. Though the US used tomahawks and entrenching tool to great effect in Vietnam, we don't generally go hand to hand in Iraq.

5. In Traveller, just like in real life, I think I'll carry a short rifle (not a carbine), a pistol, and a couple of knives, just in case.

 

[parmasson]

^so is the M4 a short rife or carbine?

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Originally posted by dnacowboy:
5. In Traveller, just like in real life, I think I'll carry a short rifle (not a carbine), a pistol, and a couple of knives, just in case.

And, a FGMP or two, if you can get them.......

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by dnacowboy:
3. Current 5.56 rds will punch through Class III body armor (and even Class IV, depending on the manufacturer). Our bullets will cleanly punch through the armor issued to the Iraqi Army, but not the armor issued to us.

"Greentip" (M855) won't defeat III or IV plates or the issue SAPI plates. The black-tip M955 will at short range (maybe not SAPI or lvl IV from a M4), but it is rarely seen. Either round will handily defeat IIIA "soft" vests, like the PASGT or Interceptor we are giving the IA. Does the IA get SAPI plates?
Edit: Don't answer that. OPSEC

5. In Traveller, just like in real life, I think I'll carry a short rifle (not a carbine), a pistol, and a couple of knives, just in case.

Works for me.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Originally posted by dnacowboy:
5. In Traveller, just like in real life, I think I'll carry a short rifle (not a carbine), a pistol, and a couple of knives, just in case.

And, of course, there's the difference between what a Traveller carries and what your official landing party carries......

 

[mike wightman]

Don't forget the grenades - you never know when you might need 'em

 

[Crashlogic]

The bren is an LMG the BAR is not, it is closer akin to the assualt rifle, only bigger and on steroids. (The assualt rifle having is genisis in the german mp44/45).

BAR was meant as a suad support wepaon (as the M60 was in Nam ans the M249 is today. The weapon was a bit behind the times, given the german MG 42. The BAR was not widely popular with the army, but the marines made extensive use of it, deploying as many as one for every three men. The BAR is basically an automatic 30-06, and that made it very nasty indeed.

Carbines were, and remain shortened versions of the basic rifle and take a corresponding hit in accuracy and velocity. In CQB and even in most combat conditions, the range and accuracy issues are minimal, and battle is all about the most bullets on target as soon as possible. Burst and auto weapons accomplish this nicely and thust the rise of the assualt rifle.

The big diference between an assault carbine and an SMG is that an SMG uses pistol cratriges, which are of a lower velocity and MUCH less accurate than the rifle rounds used by the Carbine.

The CAR 15 and the M16 are chambered for the same 5.56mm ammunition, which is equally as effective as the 7.62mm rounds it replaces for the intended uses, only more can be carried.

 

[spank]

The BAR predates the MG-42 by about 25 years, and though it might not have had the MG-42 high rate of fire it's was more reasonable.

5.56 ammo can be considered comparable only at closer ranges, it tends to lose energy faser. The real difference was not the weight of the round but the beefiness of the rifle.

 

[Jame]

What I've always wondered is why there has never been a Gauss carbine...

 

[Todg]

I have had the Gauss carbine IMTU since book 4 was published.

 

[mike wightman]

The gauss rifle from LBB4 is of bullpup configuration, and is the same length as a LBB1 carbine

If you want shorter gauss weapons then have a look at T4's Empereor's Arsenal, and GT Ground Forces.
Both detail a gauss smg...

 

[epicenter00]

The classification name of the weapons in the modern day are just that - names. The term "assault rifle" is said to come from a translation of the German "sturmkarbiner."

A "carbine" is a pretty loosely defined thing, similar to an "express rifle" (try asking hunters what exactly is or is not an express rifle). As one of the posters on here pointed out, all "assault rifles" would be considered carbines from the standpoint of WW2 rifles.

IIRC, the Mauser 98k that the Germans extensively used during WW1 and WW2 was considered a carbine because it was shorter than the rifles that came before it, and it fires a bullet that I think everyone on here would certainly agree is a full-power rifle bullet (unless you're one of those macho types who think .460 Weatherby Magnums are "true" rifles and .357 Holland and Holland Magnums are for plinking, and want to know if they can stick a folding stock, box feed, and a rifle grenade adaptor on a .460 WM rifle (I wish I was kidding, this actually happened in a game).

Though if you really want to go into "claddological shock" about this whole pistol/SMG/PDW/carbine/assault rifle/rifle thing - most Russian writings I've read refer to AK47s as "submachine guns" instead of "assault rifles" given the power of the cartridge and the length of the weapon. I used to think it was simple sloppy translation, but the more I think about it, the more I think they're being more honest about what most infantry modern weapons are - up-powered submachineguns but not as powerful as "true" rifles. Which would make them PDWs, right?

---

As for 3I weapons designing, I would imagine that the bulk of weapons manufacturing would be done by megacorporate concerns and their contractors. In fact, in the 3I, there would probably be two competitions - design and manufacturing. Design could be won by anyone, even a single individual (in theory). Once a design won, the Imperium would probably entitle the designer then "own" the design from then on, and farm out manufacturing contracts as they see fit.

Then again, given the size of the Imperium, it's entirely possible that Marines in the Spinward Marches use entirely different rifles those in the Core, Illeish, or the Solomani Rim. Perhaps equipment contracts and evaluation might be done at the Depot level? Certainly successful designs might be copied by other depots as well, and there might be a certain amount of commonality with things like ammunition, so rifles of the Imperium would actually have more in common with NATO rifles meeting STANAG requirements than everyone using one particular model of rifle. This would encourage local industry and line the pockets of planet and sub-sector nobles.

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by epicenter00:
The classification name of the weapons in the modern day are just that - names. The term "assault rifle" is said to come from a translation of the German "sturmkarbiner."

Or Sturmgewehr, usually abreviated StG.

Then again, given the size of the Imperium, it's entirely possible that Marines in the Spinward Marches use entirely different rifles those in the Core, Illeish, or the Solomani Rim. Perhaps equipment contracts and evaluation might be done at the Depot level? Certainly successful designs might be copied by other depots as well, and there might be a certain amount of commonality with things like ammunition, so rifles of the Imperium would actually have more in common with NATO rifles meeting STANAG requirements than everyone using one particular model of rifle. This would encourage local industry and line the pockets of planet and sub-sector nobles.

It's also possible that there is a standard design that is contracted out to local manufactures - a common practice during wartine.

Consider that the Colt 1911 was made by such manufactures as Ithaca, Singer Sewing Machine, Remington Rand, Colt, etc. The M1 Garand was built by Winchester and Springfield Armory. The M14 was manufactured by Harrington and Richardson, Winchester and TRW and currently the M-16 variants are made by both Colt and FN - not to mention a large number of other makers who are not official military contractors. The same hold true for the AK series of rifles and large number of other military weapons.

By issuing different weapons, you multiply the complexity of logistics. With a single design farmed out to local makers, you have a single platform with common parts, manuals, accessories, etc. Much easier for a large organization to deal with.

STANAG compatability is the result of nationalism - most NATO coutries wanted their own local weapon. This won't be a problem in the Imperium unless YTU lacks centralized power.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Of course, Corejob, those "designs" in someplace as huge as the 3I don't have to be identical. As long as they were identical in function, shape, caliber, etc, you might get a small sup-Imperial polity that produces the weapons with bright pink and flourescent yellow stocks. (Hey, given TL15 sensors, what's the point of visual camouflage, right? )

 

[Uncle Bob]

Of course, that assumes that the bad guys are all TL15.

OTOH, Sadam was not the only TL5 despot to buy gold plated AKs.

 

[Anthony]

An awful lot of 3I soldiers are armed with TL12 gauss rifles, not TL15 fusion guns. In the modern day, TL8 soldiers are armed with guns that are pretty close to TL6.

 

[Todg]

Armies tend to be pretty conservative when it comes to small arms. They're also cost sensitive. The difference in cost between a gauss rifle and a FGMP may not seem like a lot for something like the Imperium, but multiply it by the number of soldiers.

Fritz88, a lot will depend on how you view the Imperium. What you say is true, the designs don't have to be identical, but why change what works? Why reinvernt the wheel? AK's made in Hungary and China and Romania, etc are all pretty much identical. If it's ain't broke, don't fix it. By the 3I most small arms designs are extremely mature.

If they're identical in shape, function and caliber, why not just make them identical period? Then all parts, accessories, etc are totally interchangeable. Armies like everything uniform for good reason.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, Corejob, that assumes socieites like ours. I think most places will function exactly as you say. But, it would be fun (and entirely plausible, IMHO) to have a few planetary army units (or Imperial army if you use the idea of army units being levied from certain worlds and remaining together) that do something different. Its not a technical thing, just a bit of color to make the players go, "Huh?! ."

 

[Todg]

I agree. In my model of the Imperium, the planets provide their own forces and their equipment and weapons do reflect local preferences with only common ammo and magazines. But my Imperium is more like a confederation rather than an empire. The IMC is the true imperial military. The army is more like the US National Guard. It can be 'federalized' as needed, but in most cases, it is a local force.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
I think most places will function exactly as you say. But, it would be fun (and entirely plausible, IMHO) to have a few planetary army units (or Imperial army if you use the idea of army units being levied from certain worlds and remaining together) that do something different. Its not a technical thing, just a bit of color to make the players go, "Huh?! ."

This makes sense to me; there are examples of this in contemporary real-world armies, so it certainly doesn't seem unreasonable in an interstellar polity comprised of largely independent planet-states. For systems with a strong "planetary-nationalist" pride, it could almost be expected.

IMHO this would occur most often on high-pop-, mid- to high-tech worlds that have the capability to produce the weapons at home, and to outfit and maintain their military forces (planning for obsolescence and turnover).