Carbines vs. Rifles

[Todg]

The above is misleading. An armor piercing bullet typically doesn't have any more energy that a conventional bullet. It merely a difference in construction. What caliber bullet, and at what range? From the date, the common mlitary cartridge would be either the 308 or the 30-06. M2 AP ammunition has a muzzle energy of 3682J.

Rocky Marciano had his punch measured at a USA military installation The result was actually 925 foot pounds for Marciano's overhand right. Marciano was wearing a regulation 12 oz. boxing glove at the time of the test.

Nor even close.

However, his punch was about equal to the energy of a 44 magnum which is pretty amazing. University of Washington Professor Tom Steiger calculates a Karate punch to have about 150 Joules of energy.

 

[Spiderfish]

Sorry I just used the information in that one source.

I'd also read 925 foot pounds elsewhere and the mention of an "armour piercing bullet" I took to be refering to some kind of pistol round but the source didn't clarify the point any further.

 

[Uncle Bob]

"pwn" is "own", as in "I own you." p replaces o as it is easier to type when text messaging. Why text messaging shorthand, "l33t" became geek-speak I do not know. And I worked IT up until 2001.

1,000 foot-pounds? That is 1350 J. The energy of 2 Kg of fist and glove moving at 36 m/s. It seems a little high. I wonder how they got that number.

 

[Spiderfish]

I thought it might be that.

I think they got it by making him punch some sort of device.

It's a matter of technique Bob it's not just the mass of the hand and glove. You use the rest of your body mass as well.

 

[Todg]

They had him punch a ballistic pendulum. Wild stuff. I wouldn't care to take that sort of a hit.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Ballistic pendulum. Duh.

 

[sid6.7]

sorry to continue to go OT...

i wonder what bruce lees 1 inch punch was registered at....
or how hard mike tyson use to hit at...

shouldnt a punch in that range automatically
knock someone out? or heck even kill them?

i wonder if a glove actually changes the way
the object recieves the punch or a live
target VS a static target..
(although he was wearing one when he did the test?)
i can't imagine it not breaking ANYONES jaw...

 

[parmasson]

http://www.science.ca/askascientist/viewquestion.php?qID=821

Lee Griffin, federal marshall in Concord, NH, and ex Golden Gloves heavyweight champ answered on March 28, 2005:

An interesting question. The last answer was probably correct. I read that in 1955, Rocky Marciano had his punch measured at a USA military installation (as alluded to earlier) and I assume the test was conducted on a ballistic pendulum. The result was actually 925 foot pounds for Marciano's overhand right -- the same punch that nearly tore Jersey Joe Walcott's head off in their 1952 championship match. The thing that made the feat even more amazing, was that Marciano was wearing a regulation 12 oz. boxing glove at the time of the test.

 

[Todg]

There's all kinds of info on the net about this. There used to be a class taught at Seattle U (IIRC) about the physics of sports

 

[parmasson]

bact to the XM-8 I think I like this one

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/xm8-poster.jpg

If the barrel is shorter doesn’t that mean that there is going to be one hell of a muzzle flash if you are using the same round?

 

[Anthony]

Hm. The only way I can see a punch at that kinetic energy level is if there's a lot of body followthrough. A body slam can reach those energy levels fairly trivially -- a 100 kilogram man at 5 m/s is a kinetic energy of 1,250J.

However, some aspects of the link given involve bad math, as 100 kg * 9.8m/s^2 * 0.1 meters = 100J, not 1,000J. http://www.neurosurgery-online.com/pt/re/neurosurg/abstract.00006123-200512000-00013.htm;jsessionid=DeLdQXVdN3jalL4eotBFeKOrKIRAjouIji2nNHvBTMseWZVbWP9i!-2109904337!-949856144!9001 !-1 looks credible and suggests an energy level comparable to the karate punch.

 

[Todg]

Certainly, although a flash hider or suppressor will do a lot to reduce this. And there are flash reducing powders as well.

 

[Spiderfish]

Originally posted by sid6.7:
sorry to continue to go OT...

i wonder what bruce lees 1 inch punch was registered at....
or how hard mike tyson use to hit at...

Kill someone? Well of course most heavyweights could kill someone with a single punch if they clocked them the right way.

Bruce Lee's one inch punch? Ha! bit of an overrated party trick mate, trust me it's as much a fierce push as a punch and you could probably do it.


Have a look.

http://www.bofunk.com/video/1007/bruce_lee_one_inch_punch.html

I've got it from a side angle and it's even easier to see how it's done from there. Still it's a good trick at parties.

Originally posted by Anthony:
Hm. The only way I can see a punch at that kinetic energy level is if there's a lot of body followthrough. A body slam can reach those energy levels fairly trivially -- a 100 kilogram man at 5 m/s is a kinetic energy of 1,250J.

You've obviously never seen Marciano punching, yes there was a lot of body movement and follow through, that was his punching style, in fact that is the power punching style, planted feet and lots of body motion to increase the mass behind the blow and the velocity of the hand.


Anyway 100kg is 220lbs almost sixteen stone, most men aren't that size, that's a pretty big bloke.

 

[Anthony]

I think I trust the neurosurgeons more.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Anthony:
I think I trust the neurosurgeons more.

I presume you have the whole article, as the abstract gives nowhere near enough info to address energy.

Second, a major change happened to injuries when gloves replaced bare knuckles in boxing
BK- small facial bones broken, bleedng, broken fingers
glove: few broken bones, less blod spattering the audience, many more concussions. The term "punch drunk" becomes appropriate for old boxers.

The nature of the collisions changed. With gloves you got less breaking (energy transfer) and maximum momentum transfer.

Third, the XM8 is a dead issue Now they are looking for a "Joint Rifle" with SOCOM and USMC input. Apparently the Infantry was not happy with the toy HK had conned Army Materel Command into championing. The people who know for real won't say, but replacing the belt-fed M249 with a heavier and notoriously unreliable drum feed outraged a lot of users. So did replacing the Picatinny Rails with swoopy but limited HK mounting points.

Front runners may now be variations of the SCARS rifle from FN, the HK 416 upper reciever for the M16, the Leitner-Wise upper, and the ARES Shrike LMG

 

[Todg]

But the XM8 has a future in RPGs - It looks futuristic.

Don't expect any changes in the current M16 platform unless there is a large gain to be had. Small arms just don't get high priority unless there are serious problems. Those seem to have been solved with the current M16 platform, as after action reports seem to be indicating.

http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm

 

[Uncle Bob]

Except many of the M16, M4, and M249 currently in service are pretty well shot out and need to be replaced, soon. Financially, it is not much different if you buy replacements or a new system. The HK, L-W, snd ARES are all new upper recievers (including new gas systems) to go on M16/M4 trigger mechanisms.

 

[Todg]

So true, although the current contractors have a good lock on the manufacture. HK or the others getting in on the procument process is much more a matter of politics and knowing how to navigate the byzantine ways of procuremenst than having a good product - particularly when said product is significantly more expensive that that of the current contractors. HK really needs a big contract - they've been bleeding money for years. Leitze Weitner is too small to fill such a huge contract, and Ares is years behind in delivering the handful of Shrike conversions that were pre ordered (and prepaid!) in the mid 1990s - another company that is far too small to be a majot player. Unfortunate.

One can't but wonder what Imperial procurement is like, or do the Megacorps have a total lock on military contracts?

 

[Spiderfish]

I'd guess the megacorporations would have military contracts for the Imperial forces locked down pretty strong.

To equip such a force as the Imperial military would require lots of production capability. And more capacity to produce means the unit cost of a mass produced item should be less, making the megacorp a more cost effective choice. Megacorps are also going to have lots more established contacts within the organisations that handle procurement.

A smaller corporation therefore probably wouldn't be able to compete head to head with a megacorp. Bigger businesses have ways of knocking out smaller ones, like cutting down prices until they actually lose money on each sale.

Worth it if you can draw the weaker competitor into a price war which will ruin them, while leaving you intact to recoup your losses.

I think it's possible if a smaller company had a superior product it could be procured in limited numbers, perhaps as a sort of special issue. But what's to say one of the Megacorps won't come along and suck up the smaller business to aquire the technology.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Of course, the Empire is so big even a Megacorp is only going to tie down contracts for a sector or two.

Back to RW rumors,
I read a posting by one guy (who claimed Inside Information ) that HK may push the XM8 for Joint Rifle instead of the HK 416. This would be incredibly stupid, but in line with some other dumb things HK has done recently.

And L-W and AAI are in no position to compete, but they could team with a big manufacturer like ATK or Colt or even FN (hell, maybe GD if HK has really taken back the XM8) to make a competitive offering.