Corsair--What were they thinking?

[Old_Dr_Skull]

The thing about the Corsair is that it isn't streamlined, so it can't refuel from gas giants or oceans; but has no small craft to do the skimming for it either. So, it has to buy all its fuel from starports. It seems to me that for pirates or even legal commerce raiders that that would be a bit of a problem. I mean, I suppose once you drive it off the lot, you'd have to go steal a ship's boat with a big fuel tank right away and keep it in your big ship-stealing hangar. I can't seem to stop from thinking that there's a mighty big design flaw there.

 

[Whipsnade]

The real reason behind the corsair's limited refueling capability is a meta-game one. It's a built-in plot hook meant to give the GM a handle on the players, much like the inability to service a free trader's mortgage by hauling cargo alone.

The in-game reason for the design's limited refueling capability can be anything that works for you.

 

[rancke]

The real reason behind the corsair's limited refueling capability is a meta-game one. It's a built-in plot hook meant to give the GM a handle on the players, much like the inability to service a free trader's mortgage by hauling cargo alone.

The in-game reason for the design's limited refueling capability can be anything that works for you.

Provided, of course, that there is anything that will work for him.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Provided, of course, that there is anything that will work for him.

The beauty of CT B2 (even B5) design, if a canon ship doesn't work it's dead simple and fast (especially for B5 with High Guard Shipyard) to just build one that does work for any variables of 'works for your TU'

 

[rancke]

The beauty of CT B2 (even B5) design, if a canon ship doesn't work it's dead simple and fast (especially for B5 with High Guard Shipyard) to just build one that does work for any variables of 'works for your TU'

True. And your point is...?


Hans

 

[far-trader]

True. And your point is...?

...obvious?

I'd have thought so anyway. If a design doesn't' work for whatever reason, and can't be made to work as is with some fiction background for the setting, then just make a version that works for your setting and you're golden.

Same applies to world building and UPPs and pretty much any aspect of CT. It's not like we're talking building ships under FF&S or even MT. Or stating full system work ups under World Builder or even Scouts. We're talking literally a few minutes even if not familiar with the systems and referring to the books the whole way through. There was a time I could pretty much design small ships in B2 or roll a mainworld from memory* in a minute of spare time

* I never bothered memorizing the prices of the drives or the drive table progression all the way through but B2 design is literally easy enough to mostly memorize with little effort for me, and if for me then for 90% of the population of Traveller players I expect Not that you need to, it really saves very little time, but I found it fun being able to work on designs without the book.

 

[rancke]

...obvious?

Yes, but I was hoping it wasn't since that would have saved me a rant.

I'd have thought so anyway. If a design doesn't' work for whatever reason, and can't be made to work as is with some fiction background for the setting, then just make a version that works for your setting and you're golden.

No, I'm not. I buy official products precisely so as to reduce the drudgework I have to do myself so that I can spend my time more constructively doing the things I enjoy and am good at. So when I've paid good money for a broken design, I abominate being told that it doesn't matter, because I can just do it myself. Yes, I can do it myself, but it expletive well isn't the expletive point.

And then, of course, there's the whole problem of the diminished usefulness of broken designs as a common frame of reference for you and me and our fellow Traveller fans. If I fix the broken corsair by making a streamlined version and you fix it by adding fuel shuttles, suddenly you can't use that nifty adventure I make for the Corsair and I can't use the nifty adventure you make for the Corsair.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

The thing about the Corsair is that it isn't streamlined, so it can't refuel from gas giants or oceans; but has no small craft to do the skimming for it either. So, it has to buy all its fuel from starports. It seems to me that for pirates or even legal commerce raiders that that would be a bit of a problem. I mean, I suppose once you drive it off the lot, you'd have to go steal a ship's boat with a big fuel tank right away and keep it in your big ship-stealing hangar. I can't seem to stop from thinking that there's a mighty big design flaw there.

I've not looked at the Crosari's specs in a long time, but every pic I've seen has her with wings and a couple of scoops slung under hull. Is this not a design for fuel skimming?

 

[mike wightman]

When the Corsair was designed it was still legal to add streamlining as a post construction option.

 

[far-trader]

...I was hoping it wasn't since that would have saved me a rant.

And rob you of the chance to vent some frustration

I do sympathize, and almost went down that path myself instead of my first reply above, some days I'm just too tired to rant.

As Bill noted, there is a metagame reason for the (presumed) brokenness of the Corsair. And there are ways to work it into the game. At times I'd have preferred that they were both spelled out in the offering. Other times I appreciate the latitude to make up my own bits.

As for a published adventure using it I'd presume such (both or at least as applicable) would be included. More work for the adventure writer yes, but one could look at it as legitimate word count padding if being paid by the word

And if not being paid I'd still expect the same background. It is an adventure, that should presuppose more background data. In my opinion anyway. So my adventure with the Corsair may not be quite the same Corsair you have known in your own adventure, and vice-versa. Then you'd probably curse me for changing the ship Or for having to change the adventure to fit your Corsair

We can argue the broken bits of OTU material to inifinity, or accept that they are not necessarily broken but presented as is for reasons often not explained or meant to be invented by the end user.

For example, germane to the thread, is the Corsair in fact broken because it can't do wilderness refueling? In the opinion of the OP yes it is. In my opinion no it isn't.

Several reasons and operational workarounds present themselves. A few quick examples...

Corsairs always operate out of "safe" ports. That's all but required anyway since you won't operate long without refined fuel, repairs, and annual maintenance. These could be pirate ports or the Corsair could use it's pirate transponder to falsify it's way into a legitimate port.

Adopt the Supplement 9 retcon as applied to the B2 Mercenary Cruiser, another Unstreamlined design that is amended to Partially Streamlined and permitted to skim fuel.

You've got a cargo bay capable of carrying 100ton of craft/ship, steal yourself a craft or two or even a scout ship. The utility of such will far exceed that of simple fuel skimming.

 

[leo knight]

My players and I had this argument back when Supplement 4 came out, many moons ago. The book design had 'chameleon' features, pods and fins that extend and retract to change the look of the ship. As an in game rationale, I supposed that the ship was a Q-ship, commerce raider, or crappy obsolete patrol ship. I ruled that they could have streamlining, or the shapeshifting, but not both. They chose the latter, and stole a cutter. Ad hoc, but it nearly allowed me to run Prison Planet. :devil:

I had the same problem with the 600 ton liner. The edition of the rules I had showed no small craft, yet it was unstreamlined. I immediately ruled that it had a ship's boat.

Myself, I only consider something broken if I can't use it at all. I will now put on my geezer hat. Back when we started playing, every game had 'broken' stuff in it. Try reading the original rules of D&D. Try figuring out how many hit points your character is supposed to have, or what spells he starts with. We had to houserule almost everything. So when I saw things that didn't work for me, I assumed the Snafu Principle was at work, and changed it to fit. Most of my game material will never be used as written, but sampled, cut and pasted, etc. YMMV.

 

[Whipsnade]

As an in game rationale, I supposed that the ship was a Q-ship, commerce raider, or crappy obsolete patrol ship. I ruled that they could have streamlining, or the shapeshifting, but not both. They chose the latter, and stole a cutter. Ad hoc, but it nearly allowed me to run Prison Planet.

And, as if by magic, the "problem" with the "broken design" becomes a plot hook and a campaign seed.

Well played, Leo, well played.

 

[BlackBat242]

Actually, The CT Supp4 Corsair is NOT "broken"!

It is supposed to get refueled by the 100dt starships & spaceships it captures*... before they are sold off on the black market.

I think that whoever wrote up the Corsair had recently seen The Spy Who Loved Me (1977), and wanted a Traveller version of Stromberg's oil tanker**.




* remember, the description specifies that its cargo hold can hold a 100t ship, and that the doors are large enough for said ship to go in & out.

** that was used to house captured US, Russian, & British nuclear subs.

 

[rancke]

Actually, The CT Supp4 Corsair is NOT "broken"!

It is supposed to get refueled by the 100dt starships & spaceships it captures*... before they are sold off on the black market.

That's what is broken about it. It is unable to deal with unfavorable outcomes. And not just low-probability unfavorable outcomes, but such outcomes as no suitable prey being in the system, or the prey being too far away to be chased down or sufficient protection to ward off capture being present.

Or the hunting grounds being more than one jump from the corsair's base...


Hans

 

[77topaz]

But surely, pirates don't generally use "general-produced" ships like a corsair, but custom ones... for one thing, a flimsy custom ship would be cheaper, and more importantly, if all pirates used Corsairs they would be easy to catch!

 

[Whipsnade]

But surely, pirates don't generally use "general-produced" ships like a corsair, but custom ones...

Have you ever given any thought to just how a pirate ship becomes customized? Or where the money for the customization comes from? Or where the work takes place?

Or do you just think they take out a bank loan and fly to the nearest shipyard with check in hand?

The well known desire of Traveller players to "pimp their ride" has been used by canny Traveller GMs as a ready made adventure hook for over thirty years now.

 

[madmike]

The well known desire of Traveller players to "pimp their ride" has been used by canny Traveller GMs as a ready made adventure hook for over thirty years now.

How many TL7 worlds does one need to visit in order to get the right type of fluffy dice to hang on the bridge window?

 

[Whipsnade]

How many TL7 worlds does one need to visit in order to get the right type of fluffy dice to hang on the bridge window?

It's a little known fact that New Bakersfield in the Arglebargle subsector is the Imperium's only source of naturally occurring fuzzy dice.

 

[rancke]

But surely, pirates don't generally use "general-produced" ships like a corsair, but custom ones... for one thing, a flimsy custom ship would be cheaper, and more importantly, if all pirates used Corsairs they would be easy to catch!

It's not a question of all pirates using Type P Corsairs, it's that enough of them do to serve as a customer base for an entire ship type.

(And a pretty specialized type too, for all that the description claims that it uses the type 400 hull. Not 'a' 400T hull, but 'the', implying that there's only one standard one. So does all ships that use standard[*] 400T hulls have large clamshell doors? )

[*] The Type T Patrol Cruiser uses a custom 400T hull, so there's no problem there.​

Oh well, that was mostly by the way. But the "Type P Corsair" appellation does imply a somewhat more organized pirate service industry than I for one is really comfortable with. Though with the Vargr Extents nearby, I suppose it could be justified. Though that would mean that the character generation would become less generic, since the availability of the ship benefit would depend on the astrographical location.

If I were involved in revising the old character generation for pirates, I'd make the ship benefit a 'corsair' (small initial), one of several different standard ship types refitted to serve as a pirate ship.


Hans

 

[Strummist]

...Or do you just think they take out a bank loan and fly to the nearest shipyard with check in hand?

Yeah, you borrow the money off Hubba The Jatt, and fly to the nearest Boskone base...