CotI Project: Technologies

[PFVA63]

The Timetables of Technology

Hi,

Many years ago I picked up a copy of a book for $20 called "The Timetables of Technology" which may be of interest for you. It more or less provides a timeline of major events throughout history in areas like;

• Tools & Materials
• Food, Agriculture, & Shelter
• Communications
• Transportation
• Architecture & Construction
• Medical Technology
• Materials
• Energy
• Electronics & Computers
• General

Regards

PF

 

[hunter]

Maybe Traveller needs a timeline indicating the minimum level of development at which a technology could be introduced, rather than the level at which it arbitrarily happened to be discovered on Earth.

This is something I'd like to do with SciFi20. Perhaps various technologies and rather than a specific 'TL' instead it also lists the techs needed to achieve it and what techs can be developed from it.

Like the Tech Trees in Civ4 if anyone is familiar with that.

 

[aramis]

Nifty idea, but for non-computer gaming, it's a pain in the tuchus.. or at least it was with SFB's campaign sourcebook.

 

[hunter]

Nifty idea, but for non-computer gaming, it's a pain in the tuchus.. or at least it was with SFB's campaign sourcebook.

Can you give a bit more on why it's a pain? I'm figuring we could still provide a 'typical' timeline that can be used a default but the other way could be used by Referees to tailor their settings.

I'm not familiar with how SFB handles it so I'm not familiar with the problems associated with it.

 

[aramis]

Because it fails to provide a timeline!

Quite literally the dependent tech trees require either LOADS of branches, or VERY sweeping generalizations.

SFB and Starfire both went that route, and it literally precludes any standardization.

In SFB, it meant that almost no ships wer available at start, and that one either needed to houserule all to hell to use the tech one develops unless one develops on the standard bath, OR, one can't deploy developed tech unless one has ships for it.

In Starfire, it's worse, since there is a lack of standard ships.

One can't design ships without knowing exactly which tech is implemented by the target race, and then, on top of that, one has to track literally each system series. It's gotten so that the only starfire players I hear about are using autmated systems which track the tech and prohibit building stuff you haven't developed.

In short, it has too much to track for convinience, and it bogs down play.

Tech level systems are an abstraction, but to be honest, without it, each development is essentially a tech level of its own. And that's just not playable, IMO.

And those are in wargames. In an RPG, it is far harder for a GM to be "universe building" from scratch, since there are far more details that players need.

It's also related to why the OTU is so popular: it's populated with applied tech in readily useable chunks already. Ref's don't need to design basic freighters, as there are several in the rules, and more in other places.

Civ 4 as an example... It's similar to Civ II & III IIRC (I've not played IV)... but the interdependencies make it a hassle to pick, and you then have to label which developments allow which goodies, and not all goodies (especially on ships) are conviniently close. For the most part, it's going to simply be an increased hassle for equipping characters and building ships.

 

[Icosahedron]

I'm not familiar with SFB or Civ systems, but I get the idea from your descriptions. Yes, it sounds over-complex.

I'd advocate a compromise - retain Tech Levels, but simply divorce them from arbitrariness where possible. Just highlight the obvious and leave the rest to the GM (can't you tell I'm CT?)
eg. Steam Power will not be developed before Fire or before Iron, but could be developed anytime afterward. It doesn't have to go after the printing press or gunpowder.
Leave the GM to figure the finer details like the water wheel will not be developed before agriculture, or before the road wheel. but could be developed immediately afterward, and stirrups may be developed immediately after animal domestication, but not before.

You could start by outlining the major steps required in any recognisable technological development: Fire, Tools, Agriculture, Animals, Metals.....Vehicles, LTA craft, IC Engine, Aircraft, Rockets, Spacecraft, Starships.... These will form the spine of your timeline.

Then figure roughly how long is really necessary to develop one from the other (solo and/or with uplift) and you have the basis of a compact timeline that can be extended by centuries or millennia depending how 'slow' the culture is in its development.

You can then slot a few other important developments into appropriate levels and leave lesser items for the GM to decide - the ones that don't impact much on the development of civilisation, but make life more comfortable - dice, for example. <quickly takes cover>.

 

[aramis]

But LP steam systems can be built with bronze. Powerful enough to run a spinning wheel...

And many systems supposed prerequisites are not valid.

A great number of techniques (like antibiotics and sterile surgery) have a reasonable minimum to discover the reason they work, but can be done with "... stone knives and bearskins."

A TL1 society should be able to build a modern trumpet with alternate materials (nothing in it is really high tech) even though it is a 17th C invention. The issue is one of having a brazing torch. It is possible to manufacture a TL1 brazing torch (it's NOT terribly portable) from a forced draft furnace, and thus make the joins needed for a trumpet with valves.

Likewise, a certain modern heat-shield material (a titanium and silicate 3D weave) is made using Civil War blast furnaces (which were no more advanced than ones from Europe a century or more before) and civil war textile looms. Lighter than aluminium and stronger than steel, and better than the shield used on the shuttle as an insulator. (Beyond 2000, 1996)

Oh, and China had moveable type quite early; it can be done without metal... China did. You just have to be able to carve wood consistently. Not easy with stone, but doable.

Modern stealth techniques could be manufactured at TL5... but at TL5 we didn't have the computing power to calculate the angles. The materials are generally not new... just how they are being used.

In the tech scale, one needs to look at that. Each item needs 4 TL's for accurate representation (and that's an unplayable number to work with, IMO): TL discoverable, TL manufactuable, TL of Maturity, and TL of obsolescence.

For example, Ship's Lasers are discoverable at TL 5, manufacturable at same (but not practical), mature to practicality at TL 7, and are obsolete by TL18.

 

[atpollard]

If the purpose of the TL table is primarily to flesh out a culture/world, then you really should focus on the TL of maturity. Ancient batteries are VERY weak. They would probably not support an Ancient Telephone or Telegraph system.

Even if they could, the Telephone/Telegraph/Electricity are not typical characteristics of Bronze Age Cultures. So what is gained by mentioning that a Bronze Age Telegraph is theoretically possible or that the Iron Age Rome could have built a Railroad but didn't?

If the goal is to completely redefine TLs based on what a Super-Advanced culture (universal knowledge) could achieve with different levels of resources, then I suspect that you will need far fewer TLs and the Population will be the primary factor. An isolated population of 100 survivalists will not have enough specialized labor to build a space shuttle even if they had an encyclopedia that described the process step by step - starting with mining the raw ore.

There are actually only a few tech developments that are world changing:
0. Hunter Gatherer - 100% of population involved in basic survival.
1. Fire/Agriculture/Permanent settlements - 90% of population farmers, allows 10% to become specialized (usually craftsmen - limited goods).
2. Mechanized - 10% of population farmers - 90% of population becomes specialized (usually laborers and craftsmen - industrial revolution).
3. Computers/Robotics - 10% of population farmers, laborers, craftsmen - 90% of population becomes specialized (services and education - medicine, science, art, law, etc.).

Speculation on future tech that will alter the fundamental culture:
4. Future tech to allow 'abundant' resources and energy. (interstellar?)
5. Future tech to merge matter and energy? (Transporter/Holodeck culture?)
6. Future tech to merge thought and reality? (the Q?)

 

[Icosahedron]

If the purpose of the TL table is primarily to flesh out a culture/world, then you really should focus on the TL of maturity.

I was just going to say that. There will be two of these; one for a natural culture and one for an uplifted culture.

Ancient batteries are VERY weak. They would probably not support an Ancient Telephone or Telegraph system.

Even if they could, the Telephone/Telegraph/Electricity are not typical characteristics of Bronze Age Cultures.

The whole point is to determine what is a 'typical' Bronze Age culture? Are the Earth's BACs 'typical', or does a typical BAC have batteries and light steam power? What is a 'typical' uplifted BAC?
Volta's batteries were also very weak - the important thing is what a century of development did with them - and whether they could have been similarly developed by a BAC if they had bothered to do so.

So what is gained by mentioning that a Bronze Age Telegraph is theoretically possible or that the Iron Age Rome could have built a Railroad but didn't?

The point is that just because the minimal cultural examples we have on Earth didn't do these things does not mean that no such culture will do them. In fact it is not impossible that most Iron age cultures could develop steam railroads and that our sad ancestors were particularly remiss (or unfortunate).
(Roll up 1000 BACs after Hero of Alexandria - how many will develop steam power and how many will let it drop?)

The second point is to figure what a typical Iron Age culture will be capable of producing in-house, if it is not interdicted, and has the benefit of interstellar trade. As you point out below, that may be significantly influenced by population.

If the goal is to completely redefine TLs based on what a Super-Advanced culture (universal knowledge) could achieve with different levels of resources, then I suspect that you will need far fewer TLs and the Population will be the primary factor. An isolated population of 100 survivalists will not have enough specialized labor to build a space shuttle even if they had an encyclopedia that described the process step by step - starting with mining the raw ore.

There are actually only a few tech developments that are world changing:
0. Hunter Gatherer - 100% of population involved in basic survival.
1. Fire/Agriculture/Permanent settlements - 90% of population farmers, allows 10% to become specialized (usually craftsmen - limited goods).
2. Mechanized - 10% of population farmers - 90% of population becomes specialized (usually laborers and craftsmen - industrial revolution).
3. Computers/Robotics - 10% of population farmers, laborers, craftsmen - 90% of population becomes specialized (services and education - medicine, science, art, law, etc.).

But is it necessary to wait 20,000years to advance from YTL0 to YTL1?
Is it necessary to wait 5,000years to advance from YTL1 to YTL2? etc?
I can't see computers being developed in much less than 200 years after an Industrial revolution, but what if the other two are 'atypical' delays?

Speculation on future tech that will alter the fundamental culture:
4. Future tech to allow 'abundant' resources and energy. (interstellar?)
5. Future tech to merge matter and energy? (Transporter/Holodeck culture?)
6. Future tech to merge thought and reality? (the Q?)

 

[aramis]

But is it necessary to wait 20,000years to advance from YTL0 to YTL1?
Is it necessary to wait 5,000years to advance from YTL1 to YTL2? etc?
I can't see computers being developed in much less than 200 years after an Industrial revolution, but what if the other two are 'atypical' delays?

Mechanical computing was know BEFORE the industrial revolution. Roman Marble-count taxis, the antykythera mechanism...

Heck, look at the work of Charles Babbage and Ada Lovelace, during the industrial revolution.

 

[Icosahedron]

Mechanical computing was know BEFORE the industrial revolution. Roman Marble-count taxis, the antykythera mechanism...

Heck, look at the work of Charles Babbage and Ada Lovelace, during the industrial revolution.

True, Aramis, but in this context we were discussing a 'Computer Age' wherein computers and robotics were able, in the quote, to take over 90% of the labour and craftsmanship of the population.
Those mechanical computers were efficient calculators, but I can't see how they would be able to usher in a 'world changing' step in technology.

To reiterate (and clarify) I think a couple of centuries post Industrial Revolution is about the soonest possible timeslot for the Computer Age in a non-uplifted culture.

 

[aramis]

They made a huge change in calculating artillery fire tables in the 1800's, more than doubling the rounds on target. They made the 1830 census of the US tkaen less than 1/10th the man hours projected to tabulate.

They were pretty important. If they had not been seen as "infernal" they might have done far more far faster.

 

[atpollard]

PREMISE
I would imagine that a technology that radically alters society would require at least a full generation to assimilate into a culture and gain general acceptance.


YEAR 0
To use Industrialization as an example, Adam is a 40 year local master blacksmith operating a small 1 forge shop.

Brian is his 20 year old son – a brand new journeyman blacksmith. Brian leaves his father’s shop to help in the war effort, answering a call for skilled blacksmiths to work in a state-of-the-art steel mill built to produce Steam Powered Ironclad Warships. Brian is impressed by what he sees and returns home to ‘build a better blacksmith shop’.


YEAR 20
Time passes and Adam is now the 60 year old ‘local blacksmith’ still producing hand made goods for an aging population that prefers the ‘old ways’.

Brian is the 40 year old owner of a steam powered industrial steel mill turning out good quality uniform items in bulk to meet the everyday needs of the increasingly urban and industrialized society.

Charley is Brian’s 20 year old son who has learned the basics at his grandfather’s shop and apprenticed in his father’s factory. Charley is interested in the fast growing field of industrial transportation and leaves home (with his father’s blessings) to study these new internal combustion engines.


YEAR 40
More time passes. Adam is now 80 and is retired, but he still putters around his home forge making and repairing things like hinges. He is frequently sought out for restoration work and lectures on ‘the way things were’. His forge is listed as a Historic Landmark and old craftsmen like him are considered a ‘Cultural Treasure’.

Brian is now 60 and his business has just moved into its new factory – over 500 employees make it one of the largest in the region. Factories like Brian’s manufacture over 80% of all household goods. Brian is proud of the change in society that he has helped to create, but he is saddened by the pain that change has caused to ‘old timers’ like his father, Adam.

Charley is now 40 and operates the Diesel Engine Division of the family business. Charley remembers ‘the old days’ as summers spent working with his grandfather at the forge. Charley smiles when he remembers that the forge was hard work - a machine press and lathe could have increased productivity by 400% and turned out a more consistent product.

Danielle is Charley’s 20 year old daughter. Danielle liked to visit her father when he was working with the R&D people on some new product. Danielle is studying ‘Engineering’ at the University and learning about Turbines. Her professor says that in another 20 years, turbines will replace piston engines and revolutionize transportation. Danielle cannot remember a time without factories. She is fully a product of the Industrial age.

CONCLUSION
It is my opinion that about 40 years, as outlined above, is the minimum time to advance a TL for purely human cultural reasons. It could take longer, but I do not believe that it can happen much quicker without causing a political revolution. This 40 year transition period is a culturally unstable time, change benefits some and hurts others creating strong tensions between the ‘old ways’ and the ‘new ways’. Ask anyone living today whose job is now being done by a machine.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Something that pops up time and again is the element of serendipity. There seems to be a range of fundamental technologies that were arrived at by accident. Looking back, we are sometimes in danger of viewing the progress we have made as somehow inevitable.

The point made about technologies being available in earlier ages is also interesting. We mustn't forget that the ability of people to collaborate and communicate was sorely limited until relatively recently. Innovations by an individual or group could not be improved upon and exploited in the way we can now.

As a final thought on tech being possible at earlier times, I remember reading a book, I believe by Freeman Dyson (he of the Dyson Sphere), saying that while the Victorians could have built giant ships (say super tanker sized), the size of their economy (measured by energy use) was not sufficient to support the use of such a ship, and so were not built, whereas with our current global economy, being substantially larger, will support the construction of such vessels, so encouraging and supporting the various technical innovations needed to design and build such enormous craft.

 

[hunter]

Best way I am thinking is come up with key technologies like Medicine, Agriculture, Transportation, Weapon System, etc. and then break down TLs that way. Similar to what's already in the THB Technology Table, but more detailed and expanded.

Then you could define a culture that had different levels of technology in different areas.

But what you be the key technologies? I wouldn't go with more than say 12 at most.

What do you think?

 

[aramis]

Key tech paths, for me:
Power Source
Communications
Ground Motive
Water Motive
Air Motive
Space Motive
Computing
Weapons
Biology
Practical Medicine (Which, for transplanted races, may have little to do with disease theory and/or local biology)
Social Sciences

 

[atpollard]

Good start aramis.

I like these as is:
* Power Source
* Weapons

I would combine these:
* Transportation (Includes Ground Motive, Water Motive, Air Motive & Space Motive, since they eventually merge with cis-lunar capable grav vehicles).
* Information (includes Communications, Computing, books, VR, holography, etc.).

What is the difference between these (perhaps they should be combined):
* Biology
* Practical Medicine (Which, for transplanted races, may have little to do with disease theory and/or local biology)

What are items for a "*Social Sciences" Tech Tree?

I would add *Manufacturing Technology - First Tools, Hand Loom, Hammer and Forge, Mechanized factory, Robotic/Automated factory, 'Print on Demand' Manufacturing, Replication Manufacturing (Energy to Matter).

 

[aramis]

The biology tree is an understanding of biochemistry, biological processes, etc.

Practical medicine is setting bones, stitching gashes, etc, but not germ theory (which is in bology), since transplanted races may have one without the other.

Social Sciences generally have advanced based upon sensor technologys and information storage (which is not, to me, synonymous with computer tech; it's entirely possible to have computers without having books, for example, but they are of the mechanical kind...). It includes such thing as development of theory of leadership (TL0), theory of nobility (Usually TL1, with the rise of agriculture), etc...

 

[hunter]

Ok here is a sampling. TL ranges from 0-9 (baseline is given).

These aren't complete nor are they exhaustive by any means. There are plenty of more specific groups we could do. In fact, I'd love it if anyone could come up with new groups with different advances slotted to the appropriate TL

See the attachment below:

 

[LordVince]

Maybe you should consider a kinda-sideways re-definition of what you mean by "Tech Level" -- in other words, don't think of these listings as when a civilization can INVENT these technologies, but the level at which the civilization can SUPPORT these Technologies.

As was pointed out, the ancient Assyrians may have had an "electric battery", but was it anything more than a trick? Were they making flashlights to connect to these "batteries"? No. And the Chinese invented "gunpowder" many, many years before somebody packed it onto a tube, shoved in a burning fuse, and threw it at an enemy with a shout of "Eat This!"

Also, if you define "Tech Level" as the point of "civilization-wide maintainable technology", this can allow for extra-planetary (i.e., Imperial) trade with the "lower" Tech Levels. A Tech-3 Warlord may have electric lights and a deisel generator installed in his castle, but NOBODY in his civilization can fix it. Hell, he probably has to import the deisel fuel, 'cuz nobody knows how to make that, either. It exists, there, in that "Tech-3" civilization, but it is nothing more than a novelty, a curiousity, an anomaly.

DaVinci, in his time, may have CONCIEVED a helicopter, but it took the industrial backing available to Sikorsky to make one that FLEW.

In the 1600's, some brave moron built a sealed rowboat and sank it under the water of the Seine River, and then successfully rowed it thusly for several hundred yards underwater. One year later -- nor 40 years later -- did NOT see fleets of such vessels plying the submarine realms. It was HUNDREDS of years later, when an industrial INFRASTUCTURE was large enough to allow the development and MAINTENANCE of such vehicles.

Romans had the knowledge to build steam locomotives, but if they HAD, it would have taken the resources of half the Empire, and ten years per locomotive. In the meantime, the Vandals would have been...well...Vandalizing.

Prototypes do not a "Tech Level" make. Roping a feral Cow to a tree does not a Dairy Herd make. Making your "development" available to your neighbor -- and his neighbor, and HIS neighbor! -- and being able to franchise the knowledge to others....THAT a "Tech Level" makes.