CotI Project: Technologies

[atpollard]

As was pointed out, the ancient Assyrians may have had an "electric battery", but was it anything more than a trick? Were they making flashlights to connect to these "batteries"? No. And the Chinese invented "gunpowder" many, many years before somebody packed it onto a tube, shoved in a burning fuse, and threw it at an enemy with a shout of "Eat This!"

Some of the low TL items surprised me a little at first (like rockets), but thinking about it, this does represent the earliest sustainable level for those Technologies rather than when they became popular on Earth. If someone had attacked ancient China with a stick of dynamite, the Chinese COULD and WOULD have developed an "Eat this!" weapon in response.

Star travel creates the input and incentive to NEED these technologies earlier than the Earth did. As pointed out elsewhere, the Victorian Era could have built a supertanker sized ship, but had no practical need for one. A Roman Railroad economy grown to Early Industrial Age technology might have a need for a Victorian Supertanker.

Imagine how Earth History would have changed if the Roman and Chinese Empires had met, merged and survived with Roman Engineers and Chinese Bureaucrats seeing the need for and creating a Transcontinental Railroad linking the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans and shortening communication time across the super-empire. It would have been a huge project – like the Great Wall or Roman Highway network – but not impossible and potentially necessary.

 

[ravells]

I think the other assumption that we are making with tech levels is that we are only basing it on earth's experience. If there are a large number of other planets, it is concievable that they may be more advanced in some technologies but less advanced in others than those of comparative earth history. So, for example, they may have developed effective weapons but might be behind in medicine. Not sure if this train of thought is worth going down too far as it might make the whole TL concept unmanageable.

 

[PFVA63]

Some possible additions...

Hi,

Looking through the 1st two sections of the book I mentioned previously, here are a couple additional thoughts that maybe could be added to what Hunter has posted. Specifically;

For the Stone Age:

- Under Computers you could add simple counting tokens
- Under Watercraft there is some evidence of early short voyages by sea
- Under Ground you could add sledges and even possible early examples of skis
- Under Communications you could add Cave Paintings

For the Metal Age:

- Under Industry you could add soldering
- Under Medicine you could add early/primitive surgery
- Under Watercraft you could add Sailing Ships, early canal building, barges, and the introduction of rudders
- Under Ground you could add early paved roads
- Under Communications you could add Pictographs, Heiroglyphs, Hieratic Script, ideograms, the optical telegraph, signal fires, the 1st "newspaper", and even early postage systems

The book provides more data for more recent times as well. However, I wasn't sure where the break is between the Metal Age and the Middle Ages so I stopped at the year 0 for now.

Regards

PF

 

[hunter]

I think the other assumption that we are making with tech levels is that we are only basing it on earth's experience. If there are a large number of other planets, it is concievable that they may be more advanced in some technologies but less advanced in others than those of comparative earth history. So, for example, they may have developed effective weapons but might be behind in medicine. Not sure if this train of thought is worth going down too far as it might make the whole TL concept unmanageable.

That is one of the reasons I am trying to break it down into subgroups of technologies. So you can define a society that has a higher level of medical technology than in other areas. The 'average' TL may be say 5, but in medicine they have a 6 or 7.

 

[hunter]

Hi,

Looking through the 1st two sections of the book I mentioned previously, here are a couple additional thoughts that maybe could be added to what Hunter has posted. Specifically;

For the Stone Age:

- Under Computers you could add simple counting tokens
- Under Watercraft there is some evidence of early short voyages by sea
- Under Ground you could add sledges and even possible early examples of skis
- Under Communications you could add Cave Paintings

For the Metal Age:

- Under Industry you could add soldering
- Under Medicine you could add early/primitive surgery
- Under Watercraft you could add Sailing Ships, early canal building, barges, and the introduction of rudders
- Under Ground you could add early paved roads
- Under Communications you could add Pictographs, Heiroglyphs, Hieratic Script, ideograms, the optical telegraph, signal fires, the 1st "newspaper", and even early postage systems

The book provides more data for more recent times as well. However, I wasn't sure where the break is between the Metal Age and the Middle Ages so I stopped at the year 0 for now.

Regards

PF

Some good suggestions. I think some are covered with Abacus, Coastal and Ocean-going ships (I'm assuming sail and rowed). Others I think may need to go into further subgroups like a Surgery subgroup for Medical, etc.

On the Metal-Middle Age break assume around 400AD

 

[PFVA63]

Hi

Hi,

Here's some more stuff from the book I mentioned. I realize that some of it may be more than what you are really looking for or may overlap what you already have, but I started writing some of the stuff down and figured I'll post it here anyway, just in case it might be of use in better defining what kind of technological changes were occurring when.

Anyway, between 0 and 400 AD the book notes that:

Transportation
- the 1st evidence of hitching horses in front of each other (instead side by side) allowing heavier loads to be carried without requiring wider roads
- the 1st evidence of gridded maps
- additionally, the book notes that foot stirrups weren't invented until about 475 AD in either China or Korea.

Weaponry
- double armed catapults begin to be replaced by single armed catapults called onagers

Communications
- the oldest known example of paper used for writing
- the use of parchment in place of papyrus

Medical
- the 1st known use of taking some ones pulse as a diagnostic aid

Materials
- the use of coal in place of wood for fires used in making cast iron
- and finally the production of steel is believed to have started about 400 AD in China.

Additionally here is some more stuff the book lists as happening between 400 AD and 1700AD;

Transportation
- the introduction of the horse shoe, the modern saddle harness
- invention of locks for use in canals
- advances in boat building including plank on frame building, wooden ships up to 1000tons and the 1st iron clads
- the 1st know use of compasses for navigating
- the sternpost rudder
- suspension absorbing shocks
- four-wheeled carts with turning front axles
- use of living bell to explore sunken ships
- early public transportation

Weaponry
- the development of "wet fire" or "greek fire"
- the development of gunpowder from early primitive formulations to more modern formulations
- advances in catapult design including gravity powered types
- the 1st rockets
- shrapnel bombs
- fire arm development from early primitive stuff up to rifled barrels and flintlocks
- canon development ranging from early small canons that fire arrows up to cast iron canons, canons that can fire balls up to 600lb, as well as breach loading canons and cast iron balls
- development of the arbalest - a crossbow powered with a crank

Communications
- development in printing from early wood cut presses through to moveable metal type and multicolor printing
- writing advances from the use of quill pens through to the use of the modern pencil
- the 1st "printed" newspaper
- use of kites for sending messages
- 1st public postal service
- 1st daily newspaper

Medical
- eyeglasses
- sutures and cleansing of wounds advocated
- modern tooth brushes developed
- 1st recorded cesarean operation on a living woman
- experiments in blood transfusion and artificial respiration
- early exepriments in immunization

Tools
- the use of blast furnaces for making cast iron
- the telescope
- compound microscope
- the nut and screw
- mechanical calculator
- thermometer
- barometer
- air pump
- development of portable clocks
- development of a gunpowder powered motor
- development of early adding machines
- early steam powered machinery

Anyway, like I said, I don't know if any of this is of any use to you, but in case it might be of use to you I wanted to post it, at least for reference.

Regards

PF

 

[hunter]

Anyway, like I said, I don't know if any of this is of any use to you, but in case it might be of use to you I wanted to post it, at least for reference.

It's great and much appreciated! It will definitely be of use when I go to expand into sub tables for various technology groups.

 

[PFVA63]

Hunter

Hi,

I made a more detailed list of some stuff in the book I told you about, for some of the areas you expressed interest in. It only covers a limited amount of the data from the book, and right now only goes up to 1000AD, but I have posted at this link if its of use to you. In this list I tried to associate the info I posted with the dates during which they are believed to have occurred, in case you want to adjust any possible breakpoints in your tech trees.

The source book this data comes from is http://www.amazon.com/Timetables-Technology-Chronology-Important-History/dp/067188767X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201931710&sr=8-1

http://members.cox.net/psjn/TL.xls

Regards

PF

 

[ravells]

This site has a timeline of science fiction inventions (in order of date published) which might throw up some helpful tech.

 

[Peter Schutze]

materials technology

this is the backbone of almost any physical product

sure the romans may have had iron .... and hand built a useful steam locomotive
I just cant picture the 10s of thousands of rails needed to get from rome to the nearest major cities in italy let alone the millions needed throughout italy for a network being hand beaten into any standardised pattern using common technology until the 1500's or maybe 1600's

 

[Peter Schutze]

the other thing traveller (and especially the TNE collapse rules) are missing is population requirements to sustain a tech base. this is especially true for TNE collapses where there isnt trade to fill in the bits your world is missing

a colony the size of a small town (say 20,000) on its own just aint going to be supporting anything more advanced than what we had about 1300ad until nanite / energy>matter type supertech makes manufacturing obsolete even if by coincidence they are within a couple of hundred (well surveyed) miles of every material they need ! its just too complicated and intertwined.

consider the physical complexity required for even a model t ford .... rubber production and processing, various metals extracted and refined, glasses of various quality, fuel (unless wood gasification used) would each need to be the speciality of a small town where >75% of the people are involved in supporting the speciality and eachother.

then there is going to be the town that actually makes the cars plus probably one or 2 making major parts. fortunately these specialty producing towns will be supporting other products as well

There aint ever going to be a self sufficient TL5+ world with under a million population that isnt meeting a lot of its needs from trade .... which is effectively merging the two populations into one production network anyway thus making them self sufficient only as a group

 

[Icosahedron]

Peter, I agree with you about the population requirements, and I would love to get hold of some reliable info about just how many people are needed to support different tech levels. However, as you suggested with your wood-gas, everything doesn't have to be developed in exactly the same way as it was on Earth.

I'm curious about your previous post, what tech relevant to railways did society have in 1600 that it didn't have in 200?

I think I may have been the first to mention Rome and steam in the same breath, and I was thinking more of static steam engines in factories rather than locomotives - however, one could perhaps produce the other.

 

[Jame]

My own suggestion for this: FIX THE COMPUTERS so that they're at one-tenth of cost and size at least.

 

[Scott Martin]

You may want to take a look at a book called "The Knight and the Blast Furnace" by Dr Alan Williams. This book follows the (parallel) development of the Iron / steel industry and the development of medieval armour.

As for Roman technology and rails, remember that the early 1800's "rail barons" were basically using the same kinds of techniques (puddling etc.) as the romans had a couple of millenia earlier - need more rail? throw more workers at it!

Ignoring that, many of the early steam locomotives were designed to run on wooden rails - whcih would have a fairly long life across arid terrain (so avoid India an favor of Afganistan if you're trying to link China and Constantinople - that is the "Roman Empire" of which you speak right?)

One of the things that I always liked about Traveller was the "interesting" uses of technology - I'm looking forward to seeing what the Free Trader Beowulf looks like after having the hull and drives rebuilt on a (nominally) TL 7 planet...

Scott Martin

 

[Fritz_Brown]

One of the things that I always liked about Traveller was the "interesting" uses of technology - I'm looking forward to seeing what the Free Trader Beowulf looks like after having the hull and drives rebuilt on a (nominally) TL 7 planet...

Yeah, so am I...... I can't wait to go into space with a wooden hull and a hand-cranked power plant. :nonono: (Oh, did Scott forget to mention the planet is very metal poor?!)

 

[Peter Schutze]

>I'm curious about your previous post, what tech relevant to railways did society have in 1600 that it didn't have in 200?

mining on a much larger scale took off in the 1500s. also coal use (phasing out less efficient wood/charcoal) also creates hotter fires and again encourages more mining skill / scale

true guilds / specialisation take off about this time as well, making higher pressure iron/steel as opposed to lead (and some copper) piping.

both basically the same things that hindered the development of cannon>artillery

 

[Icosahedron]

>I'm curious about your previous post, what tech relevant to railways did society have in 1600 that it didn't have in 200?

mining on a much larger scale took off in the 1500s. also coal use (phasing out less efficient wood/charcoal) also creates hotter fires and again encourages more mining skill / scale

true guilds / specialisation take off about this time as well, making higher pressure iron/steel as opposed to lead (and some copper) piping.

both basically the same things that hindered the development of cannon>artillery

Thanks Peter, I was just curious, though I seem to recall from school something about Romans mining for coal in bell-pits, maybe I'm wrong there.
Looks like these things 'could' have occurred a millenium and a half before the 1600s though, in an alternative timeline, so I don't really see that they prevent Roman railways. Cheers.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Thanks Peter, I was just curious, though I seem to recall from school something about Romans mining for coal in bell-pits, maybe I'm wrong there.
Looks like these things 'could' have occurred a millenium and a half before the 1600s though, in an alternative timeline, so I don't really see that they prevent Roman railways. Cheers.

I would say there was lots to stop the Romans from having railways.

Firstly, no printing presses to record and disseminate a growing base of knowledge. Printing and later on, greater levels of education and literacy, had a huge effect on science and technical development. I would say the Romans did not have the neccessary range of technical disciplines and engineering to bring to bear, or the infrastructure to take the achievements of one generation to the next, or spread the knowledge to others to improve on it.

I would also suggest that the Romans did not have the ability to forge iron and steel to the specifications and purity neccessary to create steam engines or the rails to carry them. Forging swords and chariot wheels is not the same as building cylinders and pistons running at high speed and pressure. I don't believe the Romans had the machining technology to create them either.

The industrial base did not exist in Roman times to support such an enterprise, even if they could overcome the gap between what they could do and what was actually neccessary. Railways we know about grew up in an industrial and energy economy far larger than the Romans (probably many orders of magnitude larger). Bear in mind bulk steel production only came about in the 1850's, a product of the application of chemistry and other scientific and technical disciplines that the Romans did not have.

 

[pendragonman]

I would also suggest that the Romans did not have the ability to forge iron and steel to the specifications and purity neccessary to create steam engines or the rails to carry them. Forging swords and chariot wheels is not the same as building cylinders and pistons running at high speed and pressure. I don't believe the Romans had the machining technology to create them either.

And yet the first steam engine emerges in the first century AD. Early Roman Empire. As to the engineering means, they built aqueducts, sewers, dredging equipment, and roads that are much better drained than many of our current roads. Many of which are still extant today. They had the engineering building principles.

If they could make steel, they clearly had the metallurgy.

The industrial base did not exist in Roman times to support such an enterprise, even if they could overcome the gap between what they could do and what was actually neccessary. Railways we know about grew up in an industrial and energy economy far larger than the Romans (probably many orders of magnitude larger). Bear in mind bulk steel production only came about in the 1850's, a product of the application of chemistry and other scientific and technical disciplines that the Romans did not have.

It is this area that the Romans lagged in. Many inventions were put by the wayside as curiosities by the Romans as they preferred a slave based economy. In fact, the first railroads sprang up to accomplish 2 things (at least) 1) to require fewer man hours to deliver materials and finished products and 2) to free up labor for other projects. With an excess of human labor available the Romans had no need for labor saving devices, which is why they weren't really developed by them.

 

[Thunderbolt]

If they could make steel, they clearly had the metallurgy.

I was surprised to see how early steel was being made. If we are suggesting Roman railways means industrial scale though, it would require them to make the leap to the sort of processes that emerged with the invention of the Bessemer process, and all sorts of knowledge and technology was needed for that breakthrough. Prior to that mass production of steel was too difficult.

It is this area that the Romans lagged in. Many inventions were put by the wayside as curiosities by the Romans as they preferred a slave based economy.

Yes, I remember Sparta was never noted for its achievements other than military ones because of its slave economy.

I would still contend that without the ability to record and disseminate knowledge, and without a number of scientific and engineering areas pervading the culture itself, they could not have done it.

As Isacc Newton is often quoted as saying, "If I have seen further, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants", alluding that his achievements were based on those that had gone before. Prior to the era of printing and the Rennaissance, that process of building on and distributing knowledge was not there.

If the Romans had ever done it, it may well have been literally one engine, made by one guy, and it sucked, and then he died, and nobody knew how the heck it worked, and so they turned it into chariot wheels or plates for the kitchen.