CotI Project: Technologies

[Sackett]

Teleportation Age

The book was more fun than the movie, but Battlefield Earth had the teleportation concept, plus across galaxies and universes. Try reading that and see what you think. Basically, playing with the characteristics of "this" space versus "that" space.
Not the most technically exact descriptions, but gives the basic concepts.

Wouldn't the molecularization of control circuitry come into play around 16?

 

[Cryton]

Sorry for chucking a wrench into the works but...(ok, maby not) , what about the so called "what if?" technologies? Those roads of developement that we didnt go down?
Things like the external combustion engine, Steam-pressure artillary, and ornithopters?

 

[saundby]

Alternate techs...maybe...

Alternate tech paths are fun to consider, but there are fewer viable alternates IRL than often seems to be the case IME when you have less info on the trade-offs between the actual systems and the alternates.

In the cases of the specific technologies you mention:

External combustion engine--only real advantage is marginal, the ability to choose your fuel. Even with a lot of development by top engineering firms they're significantky less efficient than IC engines. Developing high horsepower engines with any usable degree of efficiency is future tech at this point, whereas scaling up IC engines is far less difficult. Steam is potentially viable, but unless some external factor favors it over IC, IC wins. Also, it's worth mentioning that diesel _is_ an alternate IC technology.

Steam pressure artillery--"Hang on General! We'll have the accumulators ready for the next salvo in twenty minutes or so!"

Ornithopters--were given a fair shake several times over. They're still future tech at this point. A bird's control systems are far more sophisticated than an aircraft's, or than what we can build at present, and an ornithopter needs not only that, but a way of tying the flight crew in. It may not be too far off, but it's not likely to be a general technology any time soon.

OTOH, there are a lot of "alternate" technologies actually in use all over, either unrecognised or filling a likely niche where the dominant technology is not as good a fit. This is where new dominant technologies often arrive from. Just as steam displaced early hot air engines then internal combustion displaced steam, then diesel took its place alongside conventional IC engines. Steam is still waiting in the wings, and who knows, maybe some sort of Stirling will come back some day, though they've got a lot of practical problems to solve (speaking from my experience with modern engines of the type.)

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if some techs hadn't come about, and had been skipped entirely. For example, electronic tubes of the diode/triode/tetrode variety. It would have been easy to miss. One well-placed streetcar could have done it. The concept of electronic semiconductors was already around in physics. Would they have come earlier if there had been no tubes? And would planar forms like those of today have dominated? What if tubes had arrived as an amazing new high-power electronic technology in a world with a mature semiconductor technology?

I guess this i just another way of looking at alternate techs--more as just a re-ordering of dominant technologies. *shrug* You can probably tell that I'm as interested in thinking about alternates as any gearhead SF guy. Like, if we'd actually finished any of the three Shuttle "replacements" I worked on.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Interesting premise ... "What if ________ had never been invented?"

How about taking it back further? What if a world's supply of metals heavier than copper was considerably less than Terra's? What if there had never been an "Iron Age"?

(Stone --> Copper --> Bronze --> ???)

Would organic chemistry and ceramic science have advanced over metallurgy? Instead of the cannon and the musket, would there have been more chemical means of warfare? Would Silver, Gold, and the transuranics be little more than laboratory curiousities? Would Plutonium be only a theoretical material?

How would this have affected the last 3000 years of Terrestrial history and cultural development?

 

[aramis]

Unfortunately, Keklas, our very makeup is reliant upon relatively abundant iron... it's a major component of our haem groups.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

alternative tech levels

This is what I came up with when I was running a game. I also used Low Middle and High.

0 (None) Races began to use primitive tool and discovers fire. Caves and primitive shelters come into general use.

1 (Primitive) Races begin using stone tools and advance to bronze and then iron tool. The transition from hunter-gathers to agrarian begins. Town and settlements begin to appear. Trading and information passed between settlements.

2 (Cultural) The race begins establishing a cultural base and through the direction use of Philosophy, Religion and Science. Advances in technology provide better shelters and larger complex cities. Trade routes are established and nations begin to form.

3 (Pre-Industrial) Technology spreads. New ideas and methods become widely accepted. Organized exploration of the planet begins. Colonization of far off lands begins. Artisans and craftsmen produce most goods for trade. Later, steam power becomes into being. Medicine becomes a science.

4 (Industrial) Mass production of goods begins. Nuclear power discovered. Later, electronic, superconductors, fuel cell technology and solar power. Astronomy, physic, and all other major sciences taught at centers of higher learning. First space flights take place. Computers come into being.

5 (Interplanetary) The race maintains a present in space with the use of a space station. Outer worlds explored by probes. Colonization of nearby world within their solar system is possible. Thermal electric generators and energy cells are in the early stages of development. Mapping of genetic information begins. Cloning is possible.

6 (Pre-Stellar) Gravitronic and FTL drive discovered. First probes to other star systems. Fusion power is commonplace. First colonization takes place outside solar system. Shield generators are in early stages of development.

7 (Stellar) improved FTL Drives. Several worlds colonized and trade between these worlds is commonplace. Interstellar community formed as a result. Genetic engineering is possible. Global climate control is possible.

8 (Advanced) Terraforming is possible. MEG systems are developed. Replicator and matter transport are in the early stages of development. Nuclear damper and anti-matter reactors begin development.

9 (Extreme) Science and technology take on a mystical quality.

 

[Icosahedron]

Interesting take on TLs, and a logical progression.

I was giving some thought to this, since the thread was last current, wondering what really starts the tech levels.

I figure that three things separate 'technological beings' from animals - indicating a desire and ability to adapt the environment to the self rather than adapting the self to the environment. In order to claim TL0 you need all three: Tools, Clothes and Fire - only one of which is currently used by our simian cousins.

Clothes in a strict sense may not be necessary in tropical climates, but the Fig Leaf (the world's first contraceptive?) may be substituted, or at least some purposeful decoration is used (warpaint, tattoos, jewellery, headdresses) marking the beginning of a cultural identity.

Maybe the term 'decoration' should be substituted for 'clothes'. This would recognise cave painting as well as a simple desire to keep warm. Or maybe decoration should be a fourth requirement.

 

[BlackBat242]

Would organic chemistry and ceramic science have advanced over metallurgy? Instead of the cannon and the musket, would there have been more chemical means of warfare?

Um... cannon and muskets ARE chemical means of warfare... what do you think the gunpowder is?

And cannon were being cast from brass & bronze and used in warfare for centuries before the first successful iron cannon was cast.

Muskets would likely have remained crew-served heavy weapons* (fitting the same role as heavy machine guns) for a while longer than historic... until bronze alloys with greater tensile strength were developed, as has now happened for specialized applications.

Even aluminum could find a place here, with a hardened steel liner insert for erosion prevention, just like it has in high-performance car engines where steel cylinder liners are inserted into aluminum blocks.

Crossbows would use specially-grown woods for the arms, and selective cultivation would produce very strong and springy wood... until fiberglass is invented.



* one or two men carry the 1.5" bore cannon, another carries the tripod, and 2-3 more carry canister shot and powder (canister is basically like a shotgun round).

 

[Dragoner]

I use TL's as just a guide, as to stick to hard and fast rules, they do not work so great with macroeconomics and colony worlds.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Icosahdron this is my take on Tech Level Zero…

General Description:

Tech Level 0 Low: Simple tools, cognitive thinking and rudimentary shelters.

Tech Level 0 Middle: Complex tools, abstract thinking, and clothing/portable shelters.

Tech Level 0 High: Working with metal begins, Religion and code of conduct, fixed shelters and farming begins.

In-depth Description:

Low TL 0: Stick, bone and stones are used as tools. Species begins to create a knowledge base important to its survival and passes it on to their young. Caves, hollow trees, and rock ledges are used as shelter. Grass, leaves, and branches used as bedding. Language begins.

Middle TL 0: Fire discovered and maintained. Fire harden sticks, stone worked tools used for specific applications, pottery and woodworking is discovered. Combination of wood, stone and bone form the basis of their tool set. Spears, maces and axes are examples of complex tool making. Abstract thinking puts importance on animals, places and natural phenomenon which are not based on the survival of the species. Art and storytelling begin to form the basis of religion. Animal hides and wood are used for shelters, clothing and jewelry begin.

High TL 0: Metal working begins. Bows are developed. Different family groups come together forming tribes/clans. Organized religion headed by shaman/witch doctor form rituals which are passed down through oral traditions. Knowledge of growth cycle allows farming to begin. Animal husbandry begins. Shelters are semi-permanent. Species becomes nomadic due to seasonal changes in climate.

Arguments:

Low TL 0 describes our simian ancestors as they moved out of the trees and begin waking upright. It also describes modern day simians. However, the important difference here is what some scientists and animal rights groups place upon them as far as their level of intelligence. Modern day Simians can be taught many things and are rewarded for this behavior with food. Yes they have emotions and can problem solve to a point, they even wage war against their own kind. But even through this interaction with mankind they haven’t evolved beyond Low TL 0. For those future Sophontologists, at this stage of a species development the same arguments would fuel much debate and cause the Imperial Scout Service to quarantine the world until further investigations are made.

NAS Sensors are a bit to Trekkie for me. So Sophontologists have to base their findings on accumulation of data gathered during their field work. (For the life of me I can’t remember the supplement dealing with IISS) They discussed a species in a supplement I had dealing with the IISS that had the ability to maintain fire but not to use it any further than that (going off memory here). The IISS classified them as an animal and not a race because they showed no advancement. Today’s Primates fall into this category. Just because a species is capable of showing emotions doesn’t make them sophont. It is their ability to have cognitive thoughts and abstract thinking which makes races. It’s these two abilities which make a species intelligent. It allows them to think outside the evolutionary box and go on to discover and control their world…

 

[Icosahedron]

As you say, Rigel, the exact transition from animal pack to TL0 tribe can be difficult to tie down, and as Dragoner says, TLs can only ever be a guide, no matter how many sub-divisions we introduce.
Language, of course, is another factor I'd forgotten to mention. That probably brings us to five key 'indicators'.

 

[BytePro]

IMTU, I used a broader set of categories for TL when referring to systems and worlds - basically answering the space faring critical questions related to communications, detection, repair and refueling, intra and inter system travel options.

For other aspects I preferred unique TLs for different disciplines - i.e. communications, space faring, biological, electronics, nuclear, human interface, etc. (IIRC, DGP/MT? had some such categorization.)

Basically, the areas where interaction, skill, function, repair, detection, etc. come into play.

 

[Sir Brad]

going back to the original post

TL-0 Tool Use

TL-1 Tool Crafting

there are examples of cultures that develop Fire but not Tool Crafting and stall being TL-0 with Fire, their are also cultures that develop Tool Crafting and go on to achieve many TL-1 hallmarks without developing Fire, but without Fire fail in a few decades or a century or two at the most, so the TL jump between TL-0 & TL-1 should be with the discovery of Fire or the adoption of Tool Crafting.

Stone Kidnapping, Basket Weaving and Twine Binding amongst other developments are as important to the establishment of of TL-1 cultures as Fire.

also Archaeologists have discovered very small cities established at TL-1 and either developed in to early TL-2 as they grew or failed when they grew too large survive with TL-1

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Just throwing this out there:

Neanderthals and Homo sapiens both developed at the same time and according to my Tech Levels, they both reached High TL 0. The thing that has scientist scratching their heads is whether they were assimilated into Homo sapiens genome or died off because of Homo sapiens’s encroachment into their habitat?

As far as anyone can tell, they both had the same skill set, emotions and the ability to think outside the box. What gave Homo sapiens the edge? One possibility is Homo sapiens ability to adapt to different environments which allowed them to increase their brain power, thus giving them a better chance at survival. Thus they made transition from Hunter gather to agrarian society.

It could also have been cultural attitude which led to the down fall of the Neanderthals. Unwillingness to adapt to the changes in their world brought on by the Homo sapiens. There is some evidence (Questionable) to suggest there was trade among the Neanderthals and Homo sapiens. Which also suggest cohabitation?

What happened to the Neanderthals is still a mystery…


Makes for a good adventure if you have to rival sophontologists promoting one race over then other…

 

[aramis]

Just throwing this out there:

Neanderthals and Homo sapiens both developed at the same time and according to my Tech Levels, they both reached High TL 0. The thing that has scientist scratching their heads is whether they were assimilated into Homo sapiens genome or died off because of Homo sapiens’s encroachment into their habitat?

As far as anyone can tell, they both had the same skill set, emotions and the ability to think outside the box. What gave Homo sapiens the edge? One possibility is Homo sapiens ability to adapt to different environments which allowed them to increase their brain power, thus giving them a better chance at survival. Thus they made transition from Hunter gather to agrarian society.

It could also have been cultural attitude which led to the down fall of the Neanderthals. Unwillingness to adapt to the changes in their world brought on by the Homo sapiens. There is some evidence (Questionable) to suggest there was trade among the Neanderthals and Homo sapiens. Which also suggest cohabitation?

What happened to the Neanderthals is still a mystery…


Makes for a good adventure if you have to rival sophontologists promoting one race over then other…

DNA evidence implies strongly Neanderthalensis died out.

General acceptance of Homo Neanderthalensis (instead of Homo Sapiens neanderthalensis) in the literature indicates a general scientific belief in their speciation - and axiomatically, speciation prevents assimilation, as true speciation means no reproductively capable offspring.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

A French team may have found a skeleton of a crossbreed.

My information is dated and it did make a splash when it was found.

http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/neanderkid.html

Here the link...

 

[mike wightman]

Don't the latest studies indicate we have about 4% of our genes from neanderthals?

 

[Rigel Stardin]

I haven't been following the genome study but from what I understand about DNA, it is quite possible that all Humanoid and Primate genes are in some respects the same. The big push in gentics right now is about switch genes (Don't remember the exact term) which turn on and off certain aspects of the DNA. Therefore, you can presume what gives us our two legs, arms, eyes, and organ placement is basically the same in all bipedal creatures on Earth.

Reminder: This thread is about Technology...

 

[aramis]

Don't the latest studies indicate we have about 4% of our genes from neanderthals?

I stand corrected - that's something I didn't hear about. I was going by the 2009 sequencing info, which said, "no" by virtue of a MRCA being in Africa... but the 2010 study says maybe. Interesting.
(And the 2009 DNA study saying no is mention offhandedly in both the NBC and NatGeo articles.)

 

[mike wightman]

Search the BBC news website - keyword neanderthal - some very interesting stuff in the last year or so.