CTI - Classic Traveller Improved

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Under the regular rules, you would get the 6 + 2 + Med(2) = 10, barely enough, but success. (Right?)

Under my stat bonus rules, you get 6 + 2 + Med(2) + 4 (Educ=15!) = 14, a smashing success.

Understood.

But, I still don't follow what your objection to CTI is. You've listed all three systems--and your objection above had to do with the roll low/high thingy...I'm trying to find the point of your objection.

To borrow a line from Denzel Washingtion in the movie Philadephia, "Now, talk to me like I'm a three year old."

What is it that you object to in CTI?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Under the regular rules, you would get the 6 + 2 + Med(2) = 10, barely enough, but success. (Right?)

Under my stat bonus rules, you get 6 + 2 + Med(2) + 4 (Educ=15!) = 14, a smashing success.

Understood.

But, I still don't follow what your objection to CTI is. You've listed all three systems--and your objection above had to do with the roll low/high thingy...I'm trying to find the point of your objection.

To borrow a line from Denzel Washingtion in the movie Philadephia, "Now, talk to me like I'm a three year old."

What is it that you object to in CTI?

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Oh, I'm not objecting. I always like to see new systems like this. This is similar to Daltons system (I think) in that you have to roll under something before you roll over something else - with the same pair of dice. (If we were on the Political Pulpit, I would name it, based on that... ) I will have to do some number-crunching to check this out....

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Oh, I'm not objecting. I always like to see new systems like this. This is similar to Daltons system (I think) in that you have to roll under something before you roll over something else - with the same pair of dice. (If we were on the Political Pulpit, I would name it, based on that... ) I will have to do some number-crunching to check this out....

 

[Fritz_Brown]

OK, looking at numbers (and I probably programmed this badly the first time out) I get that if you have an attribute below 7, you will seldom succeed, regardless of skill level. What I mean is that if you have Att-6, it doesn't matter what skill level you have (up through 6) for a Formidable task, and it doesn't matter until you get to skill-3 for a Difficult task. Always/until skill-3, your odds of success are the same. Once your attribute gets above 6, every skill level matters.

For lower difficulty levels, the above does not hold true - every skill level counts.

Some numbers to examine:
Skill-1, Att-6, Average -- 49% v 51%
_____________Difficult -- 22% v 28%
__________Formidable -- 5% v8%

Skill-3, Att-9, Average -- 66% v 83%
_____________Difficult -- 42% v 58%
__________Formidable -- 17% v 28%

Skill-2, Att-15, Average -- 59% v 72%
_____________Difficult -- 35% v 42%
__________Formidable -- 18% v 17% (!!!!!)

Skill-6, Att-9, Average -- 84% v 100%
_____________Difficult -- 63% v 92%
__________Formidable -- 25% v 72%

It seems the only time this system benefits you (vice plain vanilla CT) is when you have an obscenely high attribute. And, if you are extremely skilled and attempting a very difficult task, you could be severely punished by this system.

Here are the formulas I compared:
=IF(IF(OR(SD<=Skill,SD=6),SD,0)+TD<=Attribute,extraD+IF(OR(SD<=Skill,SD=6),SD,0)+TD,IF(OR(SD<=Skill,SD=6),SD,0)+TD)

=SD+TD+Skill

Did I do it right?
(I did forget to incorporate the Skill-6, Att=Att+1 bit.)

 

[Fritz_Brown]

OK, looking at numbers (and I probably programmed this badly the first time out) I get that if you have an attribute below 7, you will seldom succeed, regardless of skill level. What I mean is that if you have Att-6, it doesn't matter what skill level you have (up through 6) for a Formidable task, and it doesn't matter until you get to skill-3 for a Difficult task. Always/until skill-3, your odds of success are the same. Once your attribute gets above 6, every skill level matters.

For lower difficulty levels, the above does not hold true - every skill level counts.

Some numbers to examine:
Skill-1, Att-6, Average -- 49% v 51%
_____________Difficult -- 22% v 28%
__________Formidable -- 5% v8%

Skill-3, Att-9, Average -- 66% v 83%
_____________Difficult -- 42% v 58%
__________Formidable -- 17% v 28%

Skill-2, Att-15, Average -- 59% v 72%
_____________Difficult -- 35% v 42%
__________Formidable -- 18% v 17% (!!!!!)

Skill-6, Att-9, Average -- 84% v 100%
_____________Difficult -- 63% v 92%
__________Formidable -- 25% v 72%

It seems the only time this system benefits you (vice plain vanilla CT) is when you have an obscenely high attribute. And, if you are extremely skilled and attempting a very difficult task, you could be severely punished by this system.

Here are the formulas I compared:
=IF(IF(OR(SD<=Skill,SD=6),SD,0)+TD<=Attribute,extraD+IF(OR(SD<=Skill,SD=6),SD,0)+TD,IF(OR(SD<=Skill,SD=6),SD,0)+TD)

=SD+TD+Skill

Did I do it right?
(I did forget to incorporate the Skill-6, Att=Att+1 bit.)

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
[QB] What I mean is that if you have Att-6, it doesn't matter what skill level you have (up through 6) for a Formidable task, and it doesn't matter until you get to skill-3 for a Difficult task.

Maybe we have just differences of taste here. I think that's a good thing. I embraced it as I was designing CTI.

My whole argument for creating CTI is to take original CT, where attributes mean next to nothing (a little bit in combat, as you've pointed out, but next to nothing in most CT tasks), and make a system where a character's attributes have much more impact.

Low attribute, in CTI, means you don't really have the natural ability, and that's going to hurt your through your entire life.

It's like professional athelets and coaches (take a coach who's the same age, of course).

Professional atheletes have natural ability (high stat) and are experienced (high skill level).

Coaches (maybe their stat was lowered due to bricking age rolls) have the high skill level, but their attributes are so much lower.

So, in CT, if a coach has Football-5 and DEX-6, and a player has Football-5 and DEX-14, these two guys are typically, under CT rules, going to make the same roll.

I wanted to change that with CTI.

It's a design philosophy.

I figured, "Why does a CT character even *have* stats if those number don't define who he is?"

I created CTI to make a difference between those two guys above.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
[QB] What I mean is that if you have Att-6, it doesn't matter what skill level you have (up through 6) for a Formidable task, and it doesn't matter until you get to skill-3 for a Difficult task.

Maybe we have just differences of taste here. I think that's a good thing. I embraced it as I was designing CTI.

My whole argument for creating CTI is to take original CT, where attributes mean next to nothing (a little bit in combat, as you've pointed out, but next to nothing in most CT tasks), and make a system where a character's attributes have much more impact.

Low attribute, in CTI, means you don't really have the natural ability, and that's going to hurt your through your entire life.

It's like professional athelets and coaches (take a coach who's the same age, of course).

Professional atheletes have natural ability (high stat) and are experienced (high skill level).

Coaches (maybe their stat was lowered due to bricking age rolls) have the high skill level, but their attributes are so much lower.

So, in CT, if a coach has Football-5 and DEX-6, and a player has Football-5 and DEX-14, these two guys are typically, under CT rules, going to make the same roll.

I wanted to change that with CTI.

It's a design philosophy.

I figured, "Why does a CT character even *have* stats if those number don't define who he is?"

I created CTI to make a difference between those two guys above.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
What I mean is that if you have Att-6, it doesn't matter what skill level you have (up through 6) for a Formidable task, and it doesn't matter until you get to skill-3 for a Difficult task.

Like I said, I consider that a design *feature* of CTI.

(BTW, your numbers are a bit off in your calculations because you didn't factor in the re-rolling of 6 on the Task Die...which has a decent impact on results....but, that's just luck, not referenced by skill or stat anyway.

Also, you didn't include the way a stat is increased at Skill-6 and above for task roll purposes.

Yeah, I know. It's a bitch to figure probabilities for this system.)

I want Difficult tasks to be difficult to throw...and Formidables to be very, very hard to throw...and Impossibles to be near impossible to throw.

And,I wanted CTI to reflect natural ability as I have stated in the post above.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
What I mean is that if you have Att-6, it doesn't matter what skill level you have (up through 6) for a Formidable task, and it doesn't matter until you get to skill-3 for a Difficult task.

Like I said, I consider that a design *feature* of CTI.

(BTW, your numbers are a bit off in your calculations because you didn't factor in the re-rolling of 6 on the Task Die...which has a decent impact on results....but, that's just luck, not referenced by skill or stat anyway.

Also, you didn't include the way a stat is increased at Skill-6 and above for task roll purposes.

Yeah, I know. It's a bitch to figure probabilities for this system.)

I want Difficult tasks to be difficult to throw...and Formidables to be very, very hard to throw...and Impossibles to be near impossible to throw.

And,I wanted CTI to reflect natural ability as I have stated in the post above.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
OK, looking at numbers (and I probably programmed this badly the first time out) I get that if you have an attribute below 7, you will seldom succeed, regardless of skill level. What I mean is that if you have Att-6, it doesn't matter what skill level you have (up through 6) for a Formidable task, and it doesn't matter until you get to skill-3 for a Difficult task. Always/until skill-3, your odds of success are the same. Once your attribute gets above 6, every skill level matters.

For lower difficulty levels, the above does not hold true - every skill level counts.

Let's test this--

Let's do a little eye-ball test on a low-stat character and see if skill matters. Up above, in your quote, you tend to say it doesn't.

Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to throw dice 20 times (I'll throw real dice, as I write, recording what I throw.) Then, we'll use those same 20 numbers at varying skill levels.

Let's see if skill has an impact on a set of 20 random tasks.

---> What you're going to see is that skill level will both promote higher average totals and provide more successes at the higher difficulty categoires. <---

Another thing you're going to see is that, with a low stat like this, the separation between the categories will be SMALL.

Which is what we want, right? We don't want our low stat guys making rolls as well as our high stat guys, right?

So, you will see some improvement between sets of tasks, but the improvement between the sets of tasks will be SMALLER than it would be for a character with better natural ability.

This is a feature of CTI (something this is desireable, in my opinion).

The point here is: YOU WILL SEE IMPROVEMENT in a character as his skill level goes up.

(Remember, the SAME dice rolls will be used for each test, and the Stat will stay the same. The only thing that will change is the skill level.)


Stat-5, Skill-0

5, 1 5 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

6, 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

4, 2 4 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

6, 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

1, 2 3 = 5 (Success on Very Easy task)

2, 4 3 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

4, 2 6, 1 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

2, 5 6, 3 = 14 (Success on Staggering task)

3, 4 1 = 5 (Success on Very Easy task)

5, 4 3 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

5, 3 4 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

2, 3 3 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

6, 3 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

5, 4 6, 1 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

4, 6 3 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

1, 3 1 = 4 (Success on Very Easy task)

1, 2 5 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

5, 4 5 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

3, 5 1 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

2, 6 3 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

Average roll: 7.9

0 Failure
2 Very Easy
9 Easy
5 Routine
3 Difficult
0 Formidable
1 Staggering
0 Impossible

OK, so with Stat-5, Skill-0, we ended up hovering around the "Easy" category. With a low-stat, no-skill character, I'd expect that.

Let's move on. Same dice rolls. Just change the Skill level.


Stat-5, Skill-3

5, 1 5 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

6, 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

4, 2 4 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

6, 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

1, 2 3 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

2, 4 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

4, 2 6, 1 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

2, 5 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

3, 4 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

5, 4 3 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

5, 3 4 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

2, 3 3 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

6, 3 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

5, 4 6, 1 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

4, 6 3 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

1, 3 1 = 5 (Success on Very Easy task)

1, 2 5 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

5, 4 5 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

3, 5 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

2, 6 3 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

Average roll: 8.05

0 Failure
1 Very Easy
8 Easy
7 Routine
4 Difficult
0 Formidable
0 Staggering
0 Impossible

Notice that we're increasing our Routine and Difficult successes as we've improved in skill.

We also had, as I predicted above, a higher overall average.

OK, last test. Let's use a very high skill this time.

You're going to see the same trend--higher overall average task throw total and success more often in higher difficulty categories.

(remember, with a Skill-6+, we increase the governor stat for purposes of the Task roll. So, in the examples below, this dude would have an effective Stat-6)

Stat-5, Skill-6

5, 1 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

6, 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

4, 2 4 = 10 (Success on Difficult task)

6, 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

1, 2 3 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

2, 4 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

4, 2 6, 1 = 13 (Success on Formidable task)

2, 5 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

3, 4 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

5, 4 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

5, 3 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

2, 3 3 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

6, 3 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

5, 4 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

4, 6 3 = 13 (Success on Formidable task)

1, 3 1 = 5 (Success on Very Easy task)

1, 2 5 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

5, 4 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

3, 5 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

2, 6 3 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

Average roll: 9.2

0 Failure
1 Very Easy
3 Easy
8 Routine
6 Difficult
2 Formidable
0 Staggering
0 Impossible

See the trend? As the character's skill increases, he starts rolling HIGHER average tasks, and he starts making more of the higher difficulty categories.


If you like, I can do a similar example with a high stat character--in that example, you'll see bigger increases as the skill goes up

======================
SUMMARY
======================
CTI is right on the money, doing what it's supposed to do--and that is to make a character's stats more important than regular CT when task rolls are attempted.

Skill alone (as CT was originally written) is not enough to boost a character's average task throw total by a large amount. As I've shown you here, a skill increase WILL promote improvement in the character's task rolls.

But, you won't have that EDU-3, PILOT-2 guy flying as well as the EDU-9, PILOT-2 guy.

In fact, the EDU-3 guy is going to do a lot worst than the EDU-9 guy.

That's what CTI is all about.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
OK, looking at numbers (and I probably programmed this badly the first time out) I get that if you have an attribute below 7, you will seldom succeed, regardless of skill level. What I mean is that if you have Att-6, it doesn't matter what skill level you have (up through 6) for a Formidable task, and it doesn't matter until you get to skill-3 for a Difficult task. Always/until skill-3, your odds of success are the same. Once your attribute gets above 6, every skill level matters.

For lower difficulty levels, the above does not hold true - every skill level counts.

Let's test this--

Let's do a little eye-ball test on a low-stat character and see if skill matters. Up above, in your quote, you tend to say it doesn't.

Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to throw dice 20 times (I'll throw real dice, as I write, recording what I throw.) Then, we'll use those same 20 numbers at varying skill levels.

Let's see if skill has an impact on a set of 20 random tasks.

---> What you're going to see is that skill level will both promote higher average totals and provide more successes at the higher difficulty categoires. <---

Another thing you're going to see is that, with a low stat like this, the separation between the categories will be SMALL.

Which is what we want, right? We don't want our low stat guys making rolls as well as our high stat guys, right?

So, you will see some improvement between sets of tasks, but the improvement between the sets of tasks will be SMALLER than it would be for a character with better natural ability.

This is a feature of CTI (something this is desireable, in my opinion).

The point here is: YOU WILL SEE IMPROVEMENT in a character as his skill level goes up.

(Remember, the SAME dice rolls will be used for each test, and the Stat will stay the same. The only thing that will change is the skill level.)


Stat-5, Skill-0

5, 1 5 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

6, 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

4, 2 4 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

6, 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

1, 2 3 = 5 (Success on Very Easy task)

2, 4 3 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

4, 2 6, 1 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

2, 5 6, 3 = 14 (Success on Staggering task)

3, 4 1 = 5 (Success on Very Easy task)

5, 4 3 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

5, 3 4 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

2, 3 3 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

6, 3 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

5, 4 6, 1 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

4, 6 3 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

1, 3 1 = 4 (Success on Very Easy task)

1, 2 5 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

5, 4 5 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

3, 5 1 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

2, 6 3 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

Average roll: 7.9

0 Failure
2 Very Easy
9 Easy
5 Routine
3 Difficult
0 Formidable
1 Staggering
0 Impossible

OK, so with Stat-5, Skill-0, we ended up hovering around the "Easy" category. With a low-stat, no-skill character, I'd expect that.

Let's move on. Same dice rolls. Just change the Skill level.


Stat-5, Skill-3

5, 1 5 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

6, 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

4, 2 4 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

6, 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

1, 2 3 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

2, 4 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

4, 2 6, 1 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

2, 5 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

3, 4 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

5, 4 3 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

5, 3 4 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

2, 3 3 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

6, 3 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

5, 4 6, 1 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

4, 6 3 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

1, 3 1 = 5 (Success on Very Easy task)

1, 2 5 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

5, 4 5 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

3, 5 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

2, 6 3 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

Average roll: 8.05

0 Failure
1 Very Easy
8 Easy
7 Routine
4 Difficult
0 Formidable
0 Staggering
0 Impossible

Notice that we're increasing our Routine and Difficult successes as we've improved in skill.

We also had, as I predicted above, a higher overall average.

OK, last test. Let's use a very high skill this time.

You're going to see the same trend--higher overall average task throw total and success more often in higher difficulty categories.

(remember, with a Skill-6+, we increase the governor stat for purposes of the Task roll. So, in the examples below, this dude would have an effective Stat-6)

Stat-5, Skill-6

5, 1 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

6, 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

4, 2 4 = 10 (Success on Difficult task)

6, 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

1, 2 3 = 6 (Success on Easy task)

2, 4 5 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

4, 2 6, 1 = 13 (Success on Formidable task)

2, 5 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

3, 4 = 7 (Success on Easy task)

5, 4 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

5, 3 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

2, 3 3 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

6, 3 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

5, 4 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

4, 6 3 = 13 (Success on Formidable task)

1, 3 1 = 5 (Success on Very Easy task)

1, 2 5 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

5, 4 = 9 (Success on Routine task)

3, 5 = 8 (Success on Routine task)

2, 6 3 = 11 (Success on Difficult task)

Average roll: 9.2

0 Failure
1 Very Easy
3 Easy
8 Routine
6 Difficult
2 Formidable
0 Staggering
0 Impossible

See the trend? As the character's skill increases, he starts rolling HIGHER average tasks, and he starts making more of the higher difficulty categories.


If you like, I can do a similar example with a high stat character--in that example, you'll see bigger increases as the skill goes up

======================
SUMMARY
======================
CTI is right on the money, doing what it's supposed to do--and that is to make a character's stats more important than regular CT when task rolls are attempted.

Skill alone (as CT was originally written) is not enough to boost a character's average task throw total by a large amount. As I've shown you here, a skill increase WILL promote improvement in the character's task rolls.

But, you won't have that EDU-3, PILOT-2 guy flying as well as the EDU-9, PILOT-2 guy.

In fact, the EDU-3 guy is going to do a lot worst than the EDU-9 guy.

That's what CTI is all about.

 

[Ptah]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
What I mean is that if you have Att-6, it doesn't matter what skill level you have (up through 6) for a Formidable task, and it doesn't matter until you get to skill-3 for a Difficult task.

Originally posted by WJP:
[QB]
My whole argument for creating CTI is to take original CT, where attributes mean next to nothing (a little bit in combat, as you've pointed out, but next to nothing in most CT tasks), and make a system where a character's attributes have much more impact.

Low attribute, in CTI, means you don't really have the natural ability, and that's going to hurt your through your entire life.

I agree with the above but the impact of Att-9 (not that low, actually above average) on Skill-6 seems a little high, is it possible to tweak this or would using Att=Att+1 work, or Att+2 for Skill-6 and Att+1 for Skill-5?

It's like professional athelets and coaches (take a coach who's the same age, of course).

Professional atheletes have natural ability (high stat) and are experienced (high skill level).
...
So, in CT, if a coach has Football-5 and DEX-6, and a player has Football-5 and DEX-14, these two guys are typically, under CT rules, going to make the same roll.

I see where your going, and agree these two guys should have a different chance to succeed. What of the case for skills that are primarily mental, what does someone say with Astrogation-6 and Intelligence-6 represent? Should a character with that low of intelligence even be permitted to have a skill level of 6 in a mental skill or does the CTI system make that question moot by penalizing that character for low Intelligence?

 

[Supplement Four]

Let's test this--

Just for grins, here's a similar test I did on the TML. This one was only 10 task throws...but I thought you'd like to see how an average Stat-7 character would stack up.

I performed this test the exact same way performed the one I just did for you--I rolled real dice as I wrote, and I used the same dice rolls on all tests--just changing the skill level between tests.

---> Notice, here, that we're dealing with an average character (Stat-7) who has more natural ability than the test subject used in the above test. You WILL see bigger leaps of improvement between between the tests. You'll see higher average task throw totals, and you'll see a trend toward succeeding on higher difficulty levels as the skill level goes up. <---

Why?

Because a character's natural ability in CTI means something.

That's what bringing CTI to your game will do for you--it will make your character's stats MATTER.

And now, for the tests....


Stat-7 Skill-0
----------------
3, 1 1 = 2 (Failed Very Easy)
2, 5 1 = 6 (Success Easy)
1, 3 4 = 7 (Success Easy)
3, 5 3 = 8 (Success Routine)
6, 4 = 10 (Success Difficult)
4, 4 1 = 5 (Success Very Easy)
5, 4 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
2, 5 5 = 10 (Success Difficult)
2, 3 3 = 6 (Success Easy)
1, 2 1 = 3 (Failed Very Easy)

Average roll: 6.5

2 Failure
1 Very Easy
3 Easy
2 Routine
2 Difficult
0 Formidable
0 Staggering
0 Impossible


Stat-7 Skill-2
----------------
3, 1 1 = 2 (Failed Very Easy)
2, 5 1 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 3 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
3, 5 3 = 8 (Success Routine)
6, 4 = 10 (Success Difficult)
4, 4 1 = 5 (Success Very Easy)
5, 4 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
2, 5 5 = 12 (Success Formidable)
2, 3 3 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 2 1 = 4 (Success Very Easy)

Average roll: 7.3

1 Failure
2 Very Easy
0 Easy
5 Routine
1 Difficult
1 Formidable
0 Staggering
0 Impossible


Stat-7 Skill-4
----------------
3, 1 1 = 5 (Success Very Easy)
2, 5 1 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 3 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
3, 5 = 8 (Success Routine)
6, 4 = 10 (Success Difficult)
4, 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
5, 4 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
2, 5 5 = 12 (Success Formidable)
2, 3 3 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 2 1 = 4 (Success Very Easy)

Average roll: 7.9

0 Failure
2 Very Easy
0 Easy
6 Routine
1 Difficult
1 Formidable
0 Staggering
0 Impossible


Stat-7 Skill-6
----------------
3, 1 1 = 5 (Success Very Easy)
2, 5 1 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 3 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
3, 5 5 = 13 (Success Formidable)
6, 4 = 10 (Success Difficult)
4, 4 3 = 12 (Success Formidable)
5, 4 = 9 (Success Routine)
2, 5 5 = 12 (Success Formidable)
2, 3 3 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 2 1 = 4 (Success Very Easy)

Average roll: 8.9

0 Failure
2 Very Easy
0 Easy
4 Routine
1 Difficult
3 Formidable
0 Staggering
0 Impossible


Stat-7 Skill-8
----------------
3, 1 1 = 5 (Success Very Easy)
2, 5 1 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 3 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
3, 5 5 = 13 (Success Formidable)
6, 4 4 = 14 (Success Staggering)
4, 4 3 = 12 (Success Formidable)
5, 4 4 = 13 (Success Fomidable)
2, 5 5 = 12 (Success Formidable)
2, 3 3 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 2 1 = 4 (Success Very Easy)

Average roll: 9.7

0 Failure
2 Very Easy
0 Easy
3 Routine
0 Difficult
4 Formidable
1 Staggering
0 Impossible

 

[Ptah]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
What I mean is that if you have Att-6, it doesn't matter what skill level you have (up through 6) for a Formidable task, and it doesn't matter until you get to skill-3 for a Difficult task.

Originally posted by WJP:
[QB]
My whole argument for creating CTI is to take original CT, where attributes mean next to nothing (a little bit in combat, as you've pointed out, but next to nothing in most CT tasks), and make a system where a character's attributes have much more impact.

Low attribute, in CTI, means you don't really have the natural ability, and that's going to hurt your through your entire life.

I agree with the above but the impact of Att-9 (not that low, actually above average) on Skill-6 seems a little high, is it possible to tweak this or would using Att=Att+1 work, or Att+2 for Skill-6 and Att+1 for Skill-5?

It's like professional athelets and coaches (take a coach who's the same age, of course).

Professional atheletes have natural ability (high stat) and are experienced (high skill level).
...
So, in CT, if a coach has Football-5 and DEX-6, and a player has Football-5 and DEX-14, these two guys are typically, under CT rules, going to make the same roll.

I see where your going, and agree these two guys should have a different chance to succeed. What of the case for skills that are primarily mental, what does someone say with Astrogation-6 and Intelligence-6 represent? Should a character with that low of intelligence even be permitted to have a skill level of 6 in a mental skill or does the CTI system make that question moot by penalizing that character for low Intelligence?

 

[Supplement Four]

Let's test this--

Just for grins, here's a similar test I did on the TML. This one was only 10 task throws...but I thought you'd like to see how an average Stat-7 character would stack up.

I performed this test the exact same way performed the one I just did for you--I rolled real dice as I wrote, and I used the same dice rolls on all tests--just changing the skill level between tests.

---> Notice, here, that we're dealing with an average character (Stat-7) who has more natural ability than the test subject used in the above test. You WILL see bigger leaps of improvement between between the tests. You'll see higher average task throw totals, and you'll see a trend toward succeeding on higher difficulty levels as the skill level goes up. <---

Why?

Because a character's natural ability in CTI means something.

That's what bringing CTI to your game will do for you--it will make your character's stats MATTER.

And now, for the tests....


Stat-7 Skill-0
----------------
3, 1 1 = 2 (Failed Very Easy)
2, 5 1 = 6 (Success Easy)
1, 3 4 = 7 (Success Easy)
3, 5 3 = 8 (Success Routine)
6, 4 = 10 (Success Difficult)
4, 4 1 = 5 (Success Very Easy)
5, 4 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
2, 5 5 = 10 (Success Difficult)
2, 3 3 = 6 (Success Easy)
1, 2 1 = 3 (Failed Very Easy)

Average roll: 6.5

2 Failure
1 Very Easy
3 Easy
2 Routine
2 Difficult
0 Formidable
0 Staggering
0 Impossible


Stat-7 Skill-2
----------------
3, 1 1 = 2 (Failed Very Easy)
2, 5 1 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 3 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
3, 5 3 = 8 (Success Routine)
6, 4 = 10 (Success Difficult)
4, 4 1 = 5 (Success Very Easy)
5, 4 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
2, 5 5 = 12 (Success Formidable)
2, 3 3 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 2 1 = 4 (Success Very Easy)

Average roll: 7.3

1 Failure
2 Very Easy
0 Easy
5 Routine
1 Difficult
1 Formidable
0 Staggering
0 Impossible


Stat-7 Skill-4
----------------
3, 1 1 = 5 (Success Very Easy)
2, 5 1 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 3 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
3, 5 = 8 (Success Routine)
6, 4 = 10 (Success Difficult)
4, 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
5, 4 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
2, 5 5 = 12 (Success Formidable)
2, 3 3 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 2 1 = 4 (Success Very Easy)

Average roll: 7.9

0 Failure
2 Very Easy
0 Easy
6 Routine
1 Difficult
1 Formidable
0 Staggering
0 Impossible


Stat-7 Skill-6
----------------
3, 1 1 = 5 (Success Very Easy)
2, 5 1 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 3 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
3, 5 5 = 13 (Success Formidable)
6, 4 = 10 (Success Difficult)
4, 4 3 = 12 (Success Formidable)
5, 4 = 9 (Success Routine)
2, 5 5 = 12 (Success Formidable)
2, 3 3 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 2 1 = 4 (Success Very Easy)

Average roll: 8.9

0 Failure
2 Very Easy
0 Easy
4 Routine
1 Difficult
3 Formidable
0 Staggering
0 Impossible


Stat-7 Skill-8
----------------
3, 1 1 = 5 (Success Very Easy)
2, 5 1 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 3 4 = 8 (Success Routine)
3, 5 5 = 13 (Success Formidable)
6, 4 4 = 14 (Success Staggering)
4, 4 3 = 12 (Success Formidable)
5, 4 4 = 13 (Success Fomidable)
2, 5 5 = 12 (Success Formidable)
2, 3 3 = 8 (Success Routine)
1, 2 1 = 4 (Success Very Easy)

Average roll: 9.7

0 Failure
2 Very Easy
0 Easy
3 Routine
0 Difficult
4 Formidable
1 Staggering
0 Impossible

 

[Supplement Four]

I agree with the above but the impact of Att-9 (not that low, actually above average) on Skill-6 seems a little high, is it possible to tweak this or would using Att=Att+1 work, or Att+2 for Skill-6 and Att+1 for Skill-5?

Stat-9, Skill-6, would equate to Stat-10, Skill-5.

(from the the first of the three rules that influence the task roll--see the very first post of this thread for explanation)

I'm not sure I follow when you say "it seems a little high". Can you give me an example of what you think is high about it? If I had that, I could more fully answer your question.

 

[Supplement Four]

I agree with the above but the impact of Att-9 (not that low, actually above average) on Skill-6 seems a little high, is it possible to tweak this or would using Att=Att+1 work, or Att+2 for Skill-6 and Att+1 for Skill-5?

Stat-9, Skill-6, would equate to Stat-10, Skill-5.

(from the the first of the three rules that influence the task roll--see the very first post of this thread for explanation)

I'm not sure I follow when you say "it seems a little high". Can you give me an example of what you think is high about it? If I had that, I could more fully answer your question.

 

[Supplement Four]

I see where your going, and agree these two guys should have a different chance to succeed. What of the case for skills that are primarily mental, what does someone say with Astrogation-6 and Intelligence-6 represent? Should a character with that low of intelligence even be permitted to have a skill level of 6 in a mental skill or does the CTI system make that question moot by penalizing that character for low Intelligence? [/QB]

That's a good question.

I'm going to have to answer that from a CTI design standpoint.

I created CTI to be plug-n-play with Classic Trav. I didn't want to a GM to have to change the official CT rules to use it. I didn't want to change the value of, say, a +1 DM (a +1DM is worth quite a bit if you're talking 2D6, but a +1DM isn't worth near as much if you're talking 1d20 or 2D10...and a +1DM isn't worth squat if you're talking percentile dice).

What I wanted was a simple, easy, system (like the original CT rules) that a GM could just drop into this game--keeping all other factors the same.

So...

Your question was...

Should a character with that low of intelligence even be permitted to have a skill level of 6 in a mental skill or does the CTI system make that question moot by penalizing that character for low Intelligence?[\quote]

Now, you're talking about changing some basics of Classic Trav (whereas CTI is just a method of "reading" the 2D roll you're already making in Classic Trav).

My answer to that would be: If it works in your game, do it.

I could definitely see an argument for, "A character's skill level cannot be higher than a stat."

But, for me personally, I wouldn't do that.

Why?

Well, you hit the main reason right on the nose in your question. CTI pretty much does that work for us. If you're using a low governor stat, then the task rolls will be lower than a character, with the same skill level but higher stat, making the same roll.

Or, in other words, CTI plays favorites with characters of higher natural ability, even when skill level is the same.

The other reason I wouldn't start a "Your skill level can never be higher than your stat" rule is that it begs the question, "Which stat can't it be higher than?"

For example, if you've got AutoRifle-2, you'll use your DEX stat when firing it.

If you're in the middle of a game, and you find an old rusty AutoRifle locked in some forgotten locker somewhere, the GM may decide to have you make an AutoRile roll governed by EDU to see if your character can evaluate the worth of the weapon.

Or, let's say you're a Pilot-3. Typically, you'll use Pilot-3 governed by EDU when piloting spacecraft. But, you might be in the middle of a game, trying to dock with a delerict spacecraft that is tumbling at a pretty decent clip, revolving end-over-end.

In this circumstance, the GM might call for a piloting roll, but this time governed by DEX (because a firm grip on the manual joystick is needed for this task).

My point being, if you were going to limit skill level to always be below a stat, you'd have to tie a particular stat to that skill and always use it.

I like the flexibility of marriying stats and skills together in specific situations as I've mentioned in those two examples.

Your choice, though. It's your game.

But, just remember, CTI does a damn good job of "limiting" characters if they have a low stat.

Look at those two examples I posted. The Stat-5 guy has a much smaller separation between task tests. He improved every time. And, he did roll more higher category difficulty numbers. But, the Stat-7 guy had much bigger gains when skill applied to him.

That's CTI at work, doing its job.

 

[Supplement Four]

I see where your going, and agree these two guys should have a different chance to succeed. What of the case for skills that are primarily mental, what does someone say with Astrogation-6 and Intelligence-6 represent? Should a character with that low of intelligence even be permitted to have a skill level of 6 in a mental skill or does the CTI system make that question moot by penalizing that character for low Intelligence? [/QB]

That's a good question.

I'm going to have to answer that from a CTI design standpoint.

I created CTI to be plug-n-play with Classic Trav. I didn't want to a GM to have to change the official CT rules to use it. I didn't want to change the value of, say, a +1 DM (a +1DM is worth quite a bit if you're talking 2D6, but a +1DM isn't worth near as much if you're talking 1d20 or 2D10...and a +1DM isn't worth squat if you're talking percentile dice).

What I wanted was a simple, easy, system (like the original CT rules) that a GM could just drop into this game--keeping all other factors the same.

So...

Your question was...

Should a character with that low of intelligence even be permitted to have a skill level of 6 in a mental skill or does the CTI system make that question moot by penalizing that character for low Intelligence?[\quote]

Now, you're talking about changing some basics of Classic Trav (whereas CTI is just a method of "reading" the 2D roll you're already making in Classic Trav).

My answer to that would be: If it works in your game, do it.

I could definitely see an argument for, "A character's skill level cannot be higher than a stat."

But, for me personally, I wouldn't do that.

Why?

Well, you hit the main reason right on the nose in your question. CTI pretty much does that work for us. If you're using a low governor stat, then the task rolls will be lower than a character, with the same skill level but higher stat, making the same roll.

Or, in other words, CTI plays favorites with characters of higher natural ability, even when skill level is the same.

The other reason I wouldn't start a "Your skill level can never be higher than your stat" rule is that it begs the question, "Which stat can't it be higher than?"

For example, if you've got AutoRifle-2, you'll use your DEX stat when firing it.

If you're in the middle of a game, and you find an old rusty AutoRifle locked in some forgotten locker somewhere, the GM may decide to have you make an AutoRile roll governed by EDU to see if your character can evaluate the worth of the weapon.

Or, let's say you're a Pilot-3. Typically, you'll use Pilot-3 governed by EDU when piloting spacecraft. But, you might be in the middle of a game, trying to dock with a delerict spacecraft that is tumbling at a pretty decent clip, revolving end-over-end.

In this circumstance, the GM might call for a piloting roll, but this time governed by DEX (because a firm grip on the manual joystick is needed for this task).

My point being, if you were going to limit skill level to always be below a stat, you'd have to tie a particular stat to that skill and always use it.

I like the flexibility of marriying stats and skills together in specific situations as I've mentioned in those two examples.

Your choice, though. It's your game.

But, just remember, CTI does a damn good job of "limiting" characters if they have a low stat.

Look at those two examples I posted. The Stat-5 guy has a much smaller separation between task tests. He improved every time. And, he did roll more higher category difficulty numbers. But, the Stat-7 guy had much bigger gains when skill applied to him.

That's CTI at work, doing its job.