Forbidden Science of the Second Imperium
- Thread starter Michael Schulz
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ThunderChilde
SOC-13
Oh my, Bolos, not just in service to Man. " I have now determined your genotype, you are now identified as the Enemy. Zrrrrktt! <followed by the sound of ashes drifting to the ground>
o:
o:cryingblackoil
SOC-5
:heart:
Just that this is a milieu in which we would see Genetic Engineering go amok as Solomani try to perfect different species and adapt them to different environments monstrosities are created and recreated from Terra's past and interbreeding them with native life could create all sorts of aliens that we associate with Science Fiction. Also, what if some of the T4 Aliens were the result of said tampering...
It would also be an era in which Science is persuaded without moral constraint leading to also the reproduction of many pseudo-science inventions becoming commonplace eg. Tesla mind control apparatus relying upon psionics rather EM... or Supersoliders and clone armies for Noble playthings - why not play soldiers with clones they are not real like you and I... Also, huge engineering projects like Beanstalks and other assorted things. I think, the Chris Foss (let us not debate CF here) captured the whole thing of highly technological society in ruins vibe for T4 - most of what is leftover would be of Second Imperium vintage. I see whole worlds existing at a TL 5 but possessing a Second Imperium battleship and feeling secure - only operating the machinery from memory. So we would need to see the Second Imperium to be a Big Ship Universe thus not fleets but dreadnoughts patrolling the space lanes eliminating threats by overwhelming fire power.
It would also be an era in which Science is persuaded without moral constraint leading to also the reproduction of many pseudo-science inventions becoming commonplace eg. Tesla mind control apparatus relying upon psionics rather EM... or Supersoliders and clone armies for Noble playthings - why not play soldiers with clones they are not real like you and I... Also, huge engineering projects like Beanstalks and other assorted things. I think, the Chris Foss (let us not debate CF here) captured the whole thing of highly technological society in ruins vibe for T4 - most of what is leftover would be of Second Imperium vintage. I see whole worlds existing at a TL 5 but possessing a Second Imperium battleship and feeling secure - only operating the machinery from memory. So we would need to see the Second Imperium to be a Big Ship Universe thus not fleets but dreadnoughts patrolling the space lanes eliminating threats by overwhelming fire power.
saundby
SOC-14 1K
Sounds like a very interesting milieu. An interesting "dungeon crawl" campaign in the aftermath of the collapse could be done. PCs are a mop-up team, sent in to wherever reports indicate something really bad is. Kolchak in Space.
This week, the clean-up crew meets the real X-Men fresh from Solomani lab vats. Next week, esper yetis!
This week, the clean-up crew meets the real X-Men fresh from Solomani lab vats. Next week, esper yetis!
Darley51
SOC-9
Who is to say that this isn't one of the many "facets" of the IISS?
Was not part of their initial mission to attract/entice membership in the growing Sylean Federation trough advanced technology? Had to come from somewhere... and once you have the apparatus to find this technology... why not keep it working as long as you can?
Yes it was/is.
However, it is obvious that the Imperium controls the flow of technology for its own purposes and the purposes of the megacorp ( who are the real power in the Imperium; they are owned by Imperial nobility ).
Consider the following;
Most member worlds were not settled, but were re-contacted after the long night.
If the worlds were accepted as equals and not as subordinates to a central power which keeps them subordinate, then why aren't tech levels consistent across the realm? Because the "maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." prevents most member worlds from advancing.
and;
Max Weber* defines the state as a community successfully claiming authority on legitimate use of physical force over a given territory; territory was also deemed by Weber to be a prerequisite feature of a state. Such a monopoly, according to Weber, must occur via a process of legitimation.
The state is the source of legitimate physical force. The police and the military are its main instruments, but this does not mean that only public force can be used: private force (as in private security) can be used too, as long as it has legitimacy derived from the state.
The police are a constituted body of persons empowered by the state to enforce the law, protect property, and limit civil disorder. Their powers include the legitimized use of force. The term is most commonly associated with police services of a state that are authorized to exercise the police power of that state within a defined legal or territorial area of responsibility. Police forces are often defined as being separate from military or other organizations involved in the defense of the state against foreign aggressors.
By contrast, A military is an organization authorized by its greater society to use lethal force, usually including use of weapons, in defending its country by combating actual or perceived threats. The military may have additional functions, such as advancing a political agenda, supporting or promoting economic expansion through imperialism, and as a form of internal social control.
It seems obvious that either group is defined by what their purpose is, and not by who does it. Police can be civilian, armed forces or even mercenaries. The same for the military, and there are real world examples of each case and examples of each case within the OTU.
As far as PC's are concerned, there really wouldn't be any real differences because responses by police/military would continue to escalate until the required level of force or threat of force is reached. The differences would most likely be organizational as opposed to procedural.
Of course this brings up questions for me concerning the other side of the territory line, the Imperium.
What is the purpose of the Imperial Navy with regard to patrols in allied systems? Are they "supporting or promoting economic expansion through imperialism, and as a form of internal social control.", or are they "defending its country by combating actual or perceived threats."
Given that imperialism is defined as "the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination", are the member worlds really as allied and pro-Imperium as we've been led to believe? Is the Imperial Navy performing "a form of internal social control" because of that?
Or is the navy simply enforcing Imperial law, thus making them a perfect example of the military performing law enforcement actions and that the Imperium is actually a police state, in which case the territory line is wherever the Imperium tells the member world it is, and that it doesn't apply to Imperial forces at all.
-----------------------------------------------------
Imperialism always involves the massive export of capital to foreign countries for the purpose of exploiting and dominating both their labor forces and their markets. Imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism, represents the stage at which a country's consumers cannot buy all the products that have been produced, and additional markets must be sought after. The dominant feature of imperialism is the repatriation of invested capital.
------------------------------------------------------
According to the Marxist historian, Walter Rodney, imperialism meant capitalist expansion. It meant that European (and American and Japanese) capitalists were forced by the internal logic of their competitive system to seek abroad in less developed countries opportunities to control raw material, to find markets, and to find profitable fields of investment.
As the Imperium's main feature is that it controls the flow of trade and technology ..................
However, it is obvious that the Imperium controls the flow of technology for its own purposes and the purposes of the megacorp ( who are the real power in the Imperium; they are owned by Imperial nobility ).
Consider the following;
Most member worlds were not settled, but were re-contacted after the long night.
If the worlds were accepted as equals and not as subordinates to a central power which keeps them subordinate, then why aren't tech levels consistent across the realm? Because the "maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." prevents most member worlds from advancing.
and;
Max Weber* defines the state as a community successfully claiming authority on legitimate use of physical force over a given territory; territory was also deemed by Weber to be a prerequisite feature of a state. Such a monopoly, according to Weber, must occur via a process of legitimation.
The state is the source of legitimate physical force. The police and the military are its main instruments, but this does not mean that only public force can be used: private force (as in private security) can be used too, as long as it has legitimacy derived from the state.
The police are a constituted body of persons empowered by the state to enforce the law, protect property, and limit civil disorder. Their powers include the legitimized use of force. The term is most commonly associated with police services of a state that are authorized to exercise the police power of that state within a defined legal or territorial area of responsibility. Police forces are often defined as being separate from military or other organizations involved in the defense of the state against foreign aggressors.
By contrast, A military is an organization authorized by its greater society to use lethal force, usually including use of weapons, in defending its country by combating actual or perceived threats. The military may have additional functions, such as advancing a political agenda, supporting or promoting economic expansion through imperialism, and as a form of internal social control.
It seems obvious that either group is defined by what their purpose is, and not by who does it. Police can be civilian, armed forces or even mercenaries. The same for the military, and there are real world examples of each case and examples of each case within the OTU.
As far as PC's are concerned, there really wouldn't be any real differences because responses by police/military would continue to escalate until the required level of force or threat of force is reached. The differences would most likely be organizational as opposed to procedural.
Of course this brings up questions for me concerning the other side of the territory line, the Imperium.
What is the purpose of the Imperial Navy with regard to patrols in allied systems? Are they "supporting or promoting economic expansion through imperialism, and as a form of internal social control.", or are they "defending its country by combating actual or perceived threats."
Given that imperialism is defined as "the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination", are the member worlds really as allied and pro-Imperium as we've been led to believe? Is the Imperial Navy performing "a form of internal social control" because of that?
Or is the navy simply enforcing Imperial law, thus making them a perfect example of the military performing law enforcement actions and that the Imperium is actually a police state, in which case the territory line is wherever the Imperium tells the member world it is, and that it doesn't apply to Imperial forces at all.
-----------------------------------------------------
Imperialism always involves the massive export of capital to foreign countries for the purpose of exploiting and dominating both their labor forces and their markets. Imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism, represents the stage at which a country's consumers cannot buy all the products that have been produced, and additional markets must be sought after. The dominant feature of imperialism is the repatriation of invested capital.
------------------------------------------------------
According to the Marxist historian, Walter Rodney, imperialism meant capitalist expansion. It meant that European (and American and Japanese) capitalists were forced by the internal logic of their competitive system to seek abroad in less developed countries opportunities to control raw material, to find markets, and to find profitable fields of investment.
As the Imperium's main feature is that it controls the flow of trade and technology ..................
This is a conclusion that many jump to, but it is incorrect. Various bits of canon (notably several mercenary tickets) show the Imperium (i.e. the political side) intervening on behalf of member worlds to curb the activities of megacorporations. The real power of the Imperium is the high-tech high-population worlds; they build the Imperium's warships. And then they build twice as many for themselves. Hence the Imperium is probably concerned about not pissing off too many such member worlds at the same time.
No satisfactory in-setting answer has been given to that, but on the meta-level it's a well-known Classic SF trope.
Or because bootstrapping tech level without outside help is difficult and some worlds are satisfied with/resigned to lower tech levels.
And the Imperium has been shown to actively discourage imposition of such realtionships by military means. Furthermore, interstellar trade is portrayed as a small part of the total Imperial Gross Product.
Hans
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Ishmael, some of those definitions definitely come from a different political paradigm. And I don't think it's the paradigm used when designing the OTU. Be careful when introducing RL political worldviews into Traveller discussions, or it'll have to go in the PIT.
Primarily, the definitions I've used came from Miriam-Webster, Encyclopedia Britannica, and the Dictionary of Human Geography. Other definitions can be found on Wikipedia's references list for 'Imperialism'.
By most of those definitions, the manner the Third imperium's rise to power was definitively Imperialism.
Therefore, to discuss the Imperium's policies must involve discussions of imperialism; not one or two viewpoints, but all viewpoints. So long as it does not discuss recent real world historical politics, why restrict the discussion on how the Imperium works?
If you are concerned with my mention of Walter Rodney, a Marxist, please keep in mind that the statement I used describes very closely the policies of the Syleans and their expansion to the Third Imperium ( at least according to Pocket Empires ).
I could have brought up Lenin's position. He was influenced by John Hobson, an English economist and critic of Imperialism.
In any case, if we can't discuss broad political theory, imperialism in this case, then how can we allow the discussion of nobility, democracies, oligarchies or feudal technocracies?
By most of those definitions, the manner the Third imperium's rise to power was definitively Imperialism.
Therefore, to discuss the Imperium's policies must involve discussions of imperialism; not one or two viewpoints, but all viewpoints. So long as it does not discuss recent real world historical politics, why restrict the discussion on how the Imperium works?
If you are concerned with my mention of Walter Rodney, a Marxist, please keep in mind that the statement I used describes very closely the policies of the Syleans and their expansion to the Third Imperium ( at least according to Pocket Empires ).
I could have brought up Lenin's position. He was influenced by John Hobson, an English economist and critic of Imperialism.
In any case, if we can't discuss broad political theory, imperialism in this case, then how can we allow the discussion of nobility, democracies, oligarchies or feudal technocracies?
How appropriate for an Imperium.
However, just because a state is created by imperialism doesn't mean that it will remain imperialistic. There are various historic examples such as Germany and Italy.
The Imperium seems to have changed quite a bit in the aftermath of the Civil War. Expansion under the Alkhalikois have been positively glacial, with new members being counted in single digits per century. There's even one example of a world that seems to have been allowed to leave the Imperium peacefully (I'm not counting the territories lost due to peace treaties with the Zhodanies).
From all the evidence, Strephon really believes in his duty to protect the member worlds. Even against megacorporations. And apparently at least some of his dukes feel the same way.
Hans
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Just keep it related to the Traveller Universe and you'll be all right, Ishmael.
Why isn't the earth all one "tech level"? Nevermind that tech levels are a game-ism.
Which it does neither of, it is free trade, as per the commerce rules and the tech levels are more likely the result of comparative advantage.
Spinward Scout
SOC-14 5K
Being able to buy a refrigerator doesn't mean that you have the tech to build one (or even fix one). I've always thought that colony worlds like Forboldn could have the hi-tech equipment to tame their world. There's just no infrastructure there to build new hi-tech equipment. And where is a TL 14 world going to get TL 4 equipment to send on a colony ship? It has to send modern tech along with the colony ships. As long as you can afford to pay for merchandise and its delivery to your world, there's nothing I see in Traveller that says that you can't have hi-tech on a low tech world. CrImps are CrImps no matter what world you are on. It's the ability to build tech by the native population that defines Tech Level.
Honestly, building a hi-tech factory on a lower tech world might be beneficial to a MegaCorp. Not to jump into politics, but think of the hi-tech gear in the real world that's made in low tech regions for cheap labor.
The tech levels aren't consistent because the game maker wanted inconsistent tech levels. Makes play a bit more interesting - everything from bows to FGMPs are out there. The closest thing to an explanation that canon gives is, "The degree of technological expertise, and thus the capabilities of local industry, depends greatly on the basic characteristics of a world. ... The technological level is used in conjunction with the technological level table to determine the general quality and capability of local industry. ... In most cases, such goods are the best which may be produced locally, although better goods may be imported by local organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt. ... Technological level also indicates the general ability of local technology to repair or maintain items which have failed or malfunctioned." (Book 2, TECHNOLOGICAL LEVEL)
In other words, it depends on what the local industry can manage: California is not at the same tech level as Haiti. Since canon does not cite a reason, it is up to the game master to develop a rationale that suits his game style and view of the setting. Maybe there's an active effort by the Imperium to maintain "an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship." Maybe it's a relic of a long-past imperialism that the 3rd Imperium never recovered from - or never cared to fix. Maybe the folk that settled here or there have cultural reasons or economic reasons of their own for not building an industrial base capable of manufacturing FGMPs and micro-reactors. After all, the Pennsylvania Dutch are not riding around in horse-drawn carts because some outsider is imposing an unequal relationship on them.
One thing of note: the Third Imperium by canon evolved from the clash of an intensely conservative culture with an intensely change-oriented culture, a clash that was directly responsible for the Long Night. Given that history, Third Imperium culture may be fundamentally resistent to rapid change at the grass roots.
Uh ... wow. That's a whole lot of weight to rest on that one word, "Imperium." However, I don't think the game designers were referencing Marxist historians when they designed the game, and I don't see much in canon that supports that view. Certainly, there's nothing there about the Imperium controlling the flow of tech - Book 2 says pretty flatly that they're free to import whatever they think suits their needs, it's just that local industry might not be capable of repairing it. So, you can buy a laptop computer in Haiti, but parts for it are going to be shipped in from someplace else. I also can't see anything suggesting the Imperium controls the flow of trade.
Instead, we're given a universe in which the member planets are almost completely autonomous within their own borders, in which the Imperium's demesne is restricted to space itself and any control of trade is exercised by the planetary authorities themselves.
Traveller Adventure, "The Imperium": "Spreading across a vast expanse of stars is the lmperium (more properly, the Third Imperium), ruling more than 280 subsectors and 10,000 star systems. It is more accurate to say that the lmperium rules the oceans of space between the islands that are the star systems and worlds than to say that it rules the worlds themselves. The Imperial Navy guards the borders against foreign attack, keeps the trade routes free of piracy, and protects member worlds from aggression by other member worlds. The Scout Service encourages trade by publishing accurate planetary and interstellar charts, contacting new markets beyond the borders, and administering the express boat service for swift transfer of information. Other services of the Imperial government include the enforcement of a basic framework of laws governing interstellar commerce, funding of basic research in all branches of science, economic and military aid to member worlds whose internal stability is threatened, and many others. In return for and in support of all the Imperium provides, its member worlds pay taxes."
The word imperium might be the cause of some confusion; only in German does the word imperium mean empire, while in its original latin form, it is merely government or sovereignty. Thus the quote in my signature "Imperium et Libertas": government (order, control) and freedom.
I never pinned anything on the word 'Imperium'. Instead, I've based my views of the information within "Pocket Empires", which is canon and the only canon macro-economic ruleset for the Imperium thus far (afaik... not TCS, nor Striker....). The fledgling Imperium used access to tech goods as the carrot to get worlds to join and the Navy, and trade restrictions/interdictions ( control of trade ) as the stick.
Almost completely autonomous. Descriptions of how the nobility works goes against the idea of total autonomy for the worlds. My invocation of Weber involved showing how the member worlds did not hold the monopoly of violence within their own territory and are not independent 'states' in the political sense.
The Imperium controls space and they also own and control the starports. Nothing can legally go in or out of the world without Imperium's authorization. Go through the starports or else you're smuggling. Suppression of such is one of the police actions the Navy engages in.
It also has a large measure of control over 'official' flow of information between worlds with the xboat link data being the 'official' data used by governments.
As far as trade disparities go, tech levels cost money and thus are distributed along wealth or income distribution curves. Gini values are something that the game designers never considered.
A detailed look at tech levels is fodder for another day.
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