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Forbidden Science of the Second Imperium

The tech levels aren't consistent because the game maker wanted inconsistent tech levels. Makes play a bit more interesting - everything from bows to FGMPs are out there.

Indeed. As I said previously, it's a well-known SF trope.

The closest thing to an explanation that canon gives is, "The degree of technological expertise, and thus the capabilities of local industry, depends greatly on the basic characteristics of a world. ... The technological level is used in conjunction with the technological level table to determine the general quality and capability of local industry. ... In most cases, such goods are the best which may be produced locally, although better goods may be imported by local organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt. ... Technological level also indicates the general ability of local technology to repair or maintain items which have failed or malfunctioned." (Book 2, TECHNOLOGICAL LEVEL)
Unfortunately, that definition is self-contradictory. It assumes that ability to manufacture and ability to maintain and repair is one and the same. This is clearly not the case. You can import and maintain a lot of stuff that you can't manufacture. And it's not what the setting description assumes either. Strictly speaking mining colonies should have a TL of 0, since they import everything and manufacture nothing, yet there no mining colonies in canon that does not have a higher TL than that.

I've been plugging a revised defintion that goes something like this: A world's tech level is the level of the bulk of the technology enjoyed by a significant fraction of its population. That way, it can be locally manufactured or it can be imported.


Hans
 
Supplement 3 Spinward Marches said:
Technological Level: As a general indication of the degree of sophistication in
equipment, in manufacturing ability, and TECHNOLOGICAL LEVELS
in general style of life, the technological Digit Description
level code is perhaps the best single
measure. Within certain limits, the
technological level can be compared to
certain periods or ages on Terra. The
technological level table makes these
comparisons for the sake of convenience
and rapid reference. It is important to
understand that technological level does
not necessarily imply that a world is
capable of creating or manufacturing
materials at that tech level; merely that
such items are present. Consider, for
example, that many cities use equipment
which is of a certain sophistication, for
example, modern computers- but there
is no corresponding manufacturing ability
for such items in most cities.

There is nothing to say that the importers of goods can't also import or have technicians to maintain said goods, as a matter of fact it is implicitly implied that is what is being done; wich is often how things are done currently when there is a lack in local knowledge capital to maintain infrastructure.
 
There is nothing to say that the importers of goods can't also import or have technicians to maintain said goods, as a matter of fact it is implicitly implied that is what is being done; wich is often how things are done currently when there is a lack in local knowledge capital to maintain infrastructure.

Yes, but that's not what the definition in the rules say. As I said, the setting material does not conform to the rules.


Hans
 
Yes, but that's not what the definition in the rules say. As I said, the setting material does not conform to the rules.


Hans

It does not state it is not being done; too much is being read into what is stated as a simplification, common sense would follow how it already works in real life, not to expect the rules to restate the obvious. Otherwise you get high tech worlds manufacturing lower tech goods for these worlds, by a faulty interpretation of the rules, which does not make sense. As written it does conform, as well as providing a basis for commerce in goods and services, which is the purpose anyway, because there isn't any such thing as tech levels in reality.
 
I've been plugging a revised defintion that goes something like this: A world's tech level is the level of the bulk of the technology enjoyed by a significant fraction of its population. That way, it can be locally manufactured or it can be imported.


Hans

My game uses 2 TL designations, manufacturing & available for purchase...
 
I never pinned anything on the word 'Imperium'. Instead, I've based my views of the information within "Pocket Empires", which is canon and the only canon macro-economic ruleset for the Imperium thus far (afaik... not TCS, nor Striker....). The fledgling Imperium used access to tech goods as the carrot to get worlds to join and the Navy, and trade restrictions/interdictions ( control of trade ) as the stick.

Sorry, I don't own Pocket Empires and have never set eyes on it. I've heard other people talk about it, but the only canon I know comes out of CT and those bits of GURPS and MegaTrav that I've been able to get my hands on - and some of the old JTAS mags.

As regards Pocket Empires vs CT, I'd think that CT canon was more relevant to the CT universe; nothing inconsistent about assuming the fledgling empire of a thousand years back was different from the "modern" empire. Perhaps over the course of a thousand years of expansion, civil wars, regicides, and wars with neighbors, they found reason to alter their modus operandi.

Almost completely autonomous.

Almost completely autonomous. No political system operated by humans will ever perform exactly as advertised. The CT description of the Imperium is best thought of as the version taught to elementary school children; the adults quickly figure out that it's a good deal more complex than what they were taught as kids.

The Imperium controls space and they also own and control the starports. Nothing can legally go in or out of the world without Imperium's authorization.

Where there are significant starports, yes. There are also worlds where the starport is nothing more than bare ground and a beacon. Clearly the Imperium exercises control only where the level of traffic warrants control.

Go through the starports or else you're smuggling. Suppression of such is one of the police actions the Navy engages in.
It also has a large measure of control over 'official' flow of information between worlds with the xboat link data being the 'official' data used by governments.

True, but the official flow of information is not the only flow of information. Anyone who wants info to go from A to B can carry it themselves, formally pay a ship to take it, secrete it in some other cargo, or pay some crewman under the table to carry the far future equivalent of a flash drive or data disc. Ergo, while the Imperium can use the "official" pathway to indicate sanctioned information, it cannot block the flow of information with any confidence of success.

As far as trade disparities go, tech levels cost money and thus are distributed along wealth or income distribution curves. Gini values are something that the game designers never considered.

Apparently something I never considered either. What's a GINI value?

...Unfortunately, that definition is self-contradictory. It assumes that ability to manufacture and ability to maintain and repair is one and the same. This is clearly not the case. You can import and maintain a lot of stuff that you can't manufacture. And it's not what the setting description assumes either. Strictly speaking mining colonies should have a TL of 0, since they import everything and manufacture nothing, yet there no mining colonies in canon that does not have a higher TL than that.

I've been plugging a revised defintion that goes something like this: A world's tech level is the level of the bulk of the technology enjoyed by a significant fraction of its population. That way, it can be locally manufactured or it can be imported. ...

Agreed. The canon definition applies best to heavily populated worlds; it doesn't make sense when applied to small populations such as a mining or agri colony. I find your definition makes a lot more sense, though it's less able to explain significant tech disparities. I'd say economics could play a role except that newer tech tends to cost less and be more productive.
 
Did that quote answer all questions or just kill them?
Breaking out the calculus equations seldom spurs discussion ... in this case and my personal opinion, the economic discussion became more effort than I was prepared to invest.
 
Just to get things back on track then - forbidden science of the second Imperium.

Another way to look at forbidden science of the second Imperium is as buried secrets of the first Imperium.

The Vilani reached a TL11 peak and then deliberately stagnated for centuries. many of the breakthroughs of the second Imperium could be thanks to the classified r&d the Vilani buried.

Next - a great source of inspiration is some of the new technology in T5, gravity projectors, man portable gravity projectors. Nuclear damper options, control over much more than just nuclear forces etc.
 
Just to get things back on track then - forbidden science of the second Imperium.

Another way to look at forbidden science of the second Imperium is as buried secrets of the first Imperium.

The Vilani reached a TL11 peak and then deliberately stagnated for centuries. many of the breakthroughs of the second Imperium could be thanks to the classified r&d the Vilani buried.

Next - a great source of inspiration is some of the new technology in T5, gravity projectors, man portable gravity projectors. Nuclear damper options, control over much more than just nuclear forces etc.

This raises the question as to whether the TL system is descriptive or prescriptive; that is, whether it is a description of the in-game assessment of technological progress (and thus subject to political manipulation) or a prescription of "that's how the universe works". It has usually been treated as the latter, but the former opens up interesting adventure possibilities...
 
The Vilani reached a TL11 peak and then deliberately stagnated for centuries. many of the breakthroughs of the second Imperium could be thanks to the classified r&d the Vilani buried.

one sees a similar dynamic with ancient china. the chinese invented gun powder, canon, long-haul ocean-going ships, printing, and other technologies - but the all-controlling ruling class had no use for such inventions and so discarded them. the europeans discovered and/or encountered these technologies and the free european peoples had every use for them. they then built ocean-going vessels armed with canon and sailed them up the yangtze and conquered china.

the third imperium may be sitting on similar secrets, the most obvious being psionics.
 
it would all run together. recall the warehouse scene from the raiders of the lost ark ....

there's an idea for an adventure team ... the "top men".
 
This raises the question as to whether the TL system is descriptive or prescriptive; that is, whether it is a description of the in-game assessment of technological progress (and thus subject to political manipulation) or a prescription of "that's how the universe works". It has usually been treated as the latter, but the former opens up interesting adventure possibilities...

I have always treated it as the former (descriptive) and based on a best guess or average of what a system has rather than a hard fixed value of what is present.
 
one sees a similar dynamic with ancient china. the chinese invented gun powder, canon, long-haul ocean-going ships, printing, and other technologies - but the all-controlling ruling class had no use for such inventions and so discarded them.

My understanding of that dynamic was that development and utilisation of what was available was suppressed or limited in order to maintain social stability. This still meets with an essential requirement of the 2I: stability and management of the population
 
one sees a similar dynamic with ancient china. the chinese invented gun powder, canon, long-haul ocean-going ships, printing, and other technologies - but the all-controlling ruling class had no use for such inventions and so discarded them. the europeans discovered and/or encountered these technologies and the free european peoples had every use for them. they then built ocean-going vessels armed with canon and sailed them up the yangtze and conquered china.
Every social system has a certain chance to accept changes and new technologies, and a certain not to. In China there was only one state for the most part - and if that state rejected an innovation, that's it. In Europe, there were many small kingdoms, and if one rejected your ideas, you simply went to the next one, and the next one, until you found a ruler willing to listen. And once one European state had an innovation giving it an advantage, all its neighbors were very quick to adopt it to keep up with the competition.

(Note, however, that in many cases, the Roman empire was quite the opposite of the Chinese in terms of conservatism - it readily adopted almost anything it saw as useful, gods, technologies, weapons, architecture - regardless of its origin).

The Ziru Sirka was just like Old China - very centralized, and VERY conservative. The Terrans had many competing states, so they adopted ideas much more readily. The Third Imperium is centralized, but less so than the First, so there is innovation, but slow innovation.
 
The Ziru Sirka was just like Old China - very centralized, and VERY conservative. The Terrans had many competing states, so they adopted ideas much more readily. The Third Imperium is centralized, but less so than the First, so there is innovation, but slow innovation.

So what technology is proscribed, and what is open to rampant commercial competition within the 3I? Does the 3I channel shiploads of credits into the IN R&D branch, or give it away in grants to private industry to develop stuff to meet RFPs?
 
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