How Big is a vl?

[Zutroi]

As I've further researched the problem of how to address Battle Dress changing from a suit you wear to a battle-mech you drive, I've come to the following conclusion:

1 vl MUST equal one liter, not ten!

I've taken some flack for stating the battle-dress design sequence 'doesn't conform to my pre-conceptions' because a suit is thirty times the size of a man!

In an attempt to make sure everyone can get a sense of scale and can perform reality checks, please note that 2vl (or twenty liters)is the size of a common 5 gallon bucket. 20vl (200 liters) is a 55 gallon fuel drum. A typical human masses about 50 to 100 kilos (110 to 220 pounds) and has a volume of 50 to 100 liters (although we like to occupy more actual volume than that...)

Taking the Battle Dress problem as #1...

#2 Please explain how a GRAV BELT is 200 vL, or 2 cubic meters (20 times man sized)?

#3 Also, run the numbers for the "Ground Car." This vehicle has a 600 mile range, and a 600 gallon fuel capacity for a ONE MPG fuel economy!! It's also available (at TL7) with a climate control system the size of a 55 gallon drum!

#4 A Saddle for a riding vehicle is also the size of a drum.

Will this be addressed in the next errata, or am I totally insane?

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Zutroi:


<snip>

Will this be addressed in the next errata, or am I totally insane?

Hopefully yes and no, in that order

As it turns out I was going over the same numbers and having the same feelings last night, so maybe we're both nuts

I didn't get a chance to look at the errata yet to see if it is covered and I wanted to check my numbers again but since we both seem to be getting the same fix it should be right, right

 

[justacaveman]

I agree.

I've pointed this out in a number of other posts, and never received a satisfactory answer.

Compare the weights and volumes of the various standard designs (1 vl is supposed to weigh 1 kg) and you'll see what I mean. The volumes and weights of grav vehicles look more like the weights and volumes of a Zeppelin.

I think the design rules should bear some resemblance to reality.

 

[far-trader]

Ah, LordRhys, so it may have been your posts I was recalling questioning the vl to m3 conversion some time ago. If so it'll be easier to find now, and at least with growing support I won't feel so guilty just moving that decimal point

I suggest you go ahead too Zutroi since some of the questions and errata seem to get sucked right into oblivion with no apparent notice or verification from the authorities.

 

[tjoneslo]

Originally posted by Zutroi:
As I've further researched the problem of how to address Battle Dress changing from a suit you wear to a battle-mech you drive, I've come to the following conclusion:

1 vl MUST equal one liter, not ten!

The real problem is the attempt by the designers to deliberetly combine mass and volume into one statistic.

The statistics of some vehicle componets are based upon weight (1kg = 1vl) and some were based upon volume (10 liters = 1vl). In which case the other becomes wrong.

If you are that worried about the unreality of the design system, use another. Traveller's got five others, and I know of a few more, any one of which can be convered back into T20 with varing amount of ease.

 

[justacaveman]

For anything that's not mostly air, I use 1 liter = 1kg. This is the weight per liter of water, and makes a good average. This means that 1 cubic meter = 1 metric ton.

If the object has a lot of dense metal, I use 1 liter = 5 kg.

If there's a lot of empty space I use 5 liters = 1 kg.

These are rough estimates, and are mostly for my peace of mind.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Zutroi, far-trader, LordRhys, and tjoneslo,

Here is my swing at trying to answer the question of "How Big is a vl?" The following is, hopefully, a condensed version of the information I have put together so far, which may or may not help in answering the question for someone who has a better knack on how to interpret the data correctly.

1. According to p. 223 1 vl, used in for computer and vehicle design, = .01 m^3. Using my TI-85 calculator I converted the volume of m^3 to volume liters and found that .01 m^3 = 10 liters.

2. Page 223 also indicates that 1 displacement ton, used in the Spaceship, & Starship Design Sequence (SSDS), = approximately 1,400 vl = 14 m^3 = 14,000 liters.

3. On SSDS page 254 the formulas to convert displacement tons to metric tons is 1.35 x dtons or dtons x 1350 to get kilograms.

4. Working backwards from 1 dton this is what I get:


</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> dton vl m^3 liter mton kg
(1) 1.000 1400.0 14.000 14000 1.35000 1350.0
(2) 0.100 140.0 1.400 1400 0.13500 135.0
(3) 0.010 14.0 0.140 140 0.01350 13.5
(4) 0.001 1.4 0.014 14 0.00135 1.35 </pre>[/QUOTE]Line 4 of the table is the closest I could come to the vehicle design sequence numbers. Maybe someone out there can make something out of this.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello again Zutroi, far-trader, LordRhys, and tjoneslo,

Here is my second attempt to answer the question "How big is a vl?" I used Excel 97 to compile the units of measure for the CDS, VDS, and SSDS in the form of a converter. The converter, if I set up my numbers correctly came up with the following:

1 vl = 10 liters = .01 m^3 = .000714 dtons = .000964 metric tons = .9643 kg

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Hello Zutroi, far-trader, LordRhys, and tjoneslo,

Here is my swing at trying to answer the question of "How Big is a vl?" The following is, hopefully, a condensed version of the information I have put together so far, which may or may not help in answering the question for someone who has a better knack on how to interpret the data correctly.

1. According to p. 223 1 vl, used in for computer and vehicle design, = .01 m^3. Using my TI-85 calculator I converted the volume of m^3 to volume liters and found that .01 m^3 = 10 liters.

2. Page 223 also indicates that 1 displacement ton, used in the Spaceship, & Starship Design Sequence (SSDS), = approximately 1,400 vl = 14 m^3 = 14,000 liters.

3. On SSDS page 254 the formulas to convert displacement tons to metric tons is 1.35 x dtons or dtons x 1350 to get kilograms.

4. Working backwards from 1 dton this is what I get:


</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> dton vl m^3 liter mton kg
(1) 1.000 1400.0 14.000 14000 1.35000 1350.0
(2) 0.100 140.0 1.400 1400 0.13500 135.0
(3) 0.010 14.0 0.140 140 0.01350 13.5
(4) 0.001 1.4 0.014 14 0.00135 1.35 </pre>

Line 4 of the table is the closest I could come to the vehicle design sequence numbers. Maybe someone out there can make something out of this. [/quote]

 

[far-trader]

Thanks Thomas Rux, at least the numbers are consistant and I think I can live with:

1 vl = 10 liters = 1.0 kg (rounding)

The 10 liters is what T20 says and the 1.0 kg 'feels' right, all as a general average of course, figuring most designs will be a mixture of densities.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by far-trader:
The 10 liters is what T20 says and the 1.0 kg 'feels' right, all as a general average of course, figuring most designs will be a mixture of densities.

0.1 kg/L is very low for RL vehicles; the standard assumed density for cargo on ships is 0.3 kg/L, for cargo on trucks is 0.8 kg/L. Armored vehicles are often >1 kg/L.

The densities in previous design sequences were often radically high, but 0.1 kg/L is very low.

 

[spank]

No, it's all based on the metric system.

1 cc = 1 gram = 1 ml {of water}
* 1000
1 cubic dmeter 1 kg = 1 liter {of water}


1 cubic meter 1 metric ton 1 kiloliter

1 cubic meter 1000 kg 1000 liters

1 vl = 10 liters = 10kg = 10 cubic decimeters
or a cube 2.154 decimeters on a side
100 of these cubes would weigh a metric ton or a cubic meter.

1428 vl = 1 metric ton of liquid hydrogen. liquid hydrogen having a desity of .07 times water or 1 ton of hydrogen displaced by a ship = 1 dton {displacement ton} traveler uses 1400 vl per dton

so a dton is 14.28 cubic meters. {14 for you zelots} this works out to a cube 2.426 meters on a side. {or 2.410 if you work from 1400vl/dton}

That's why traveller use 2.5 meters/square on graphpaper for deck plans

as a caveat to what i've already said.

a vl = a cube 8.48 inches on a side and weighing 22 pounds if filled with water.

a dton = a cube 7.95 feet on a side and weighing 2200 pounds if filled with liquid hydrogen or weighing 31428.57 pounds if filled with water

and a grid square on deckplans equals 63.2 sq ft or 5.88 sq meters

back to the case of battle dress, it is 300vl or 3 cubic meters if you allow that it is 2 meters tall that means it can be 1.22 meters square or 6.5 feet tall and standing in a 4 foot square

 

[snrdg082102]

You are welcome far-trader, all I did was merge the units of measure on pp. 233 and 254 into a couple of tables on to one page of a spreadsheet.

Originally posted by far-trader:
Thanks Thomas Rux, at least the numbers are consistant and I think I can live with:

1 vl = 10 liters = 1.0 kg (rounding)

The 10 liters is what T20 says and the 1.0 kg 'feels' right, all as a general average of course, figuring most designs will be a mixture of densities.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Anthony,

I think what far-trader is saying is that the numbers I came up with using the indicated T20 units of measure shows a relationship that makes more sense when put together in one place. He is not necessarily saying that the numbers I came up with reflect the RL or are the official T20 ones.

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
The 10 liters is what T20 says and the 1.0 kg 'feels' right, all as a general average of course, figuring most designs will be a mixture of densities.

0.1 kg/L is very low for RL vehicles; the standard assumed density for cargo on ships is 0.3 kg/L, for cargo on trucks is 0.8 kg/L. Armored vehicles are often >1 kg/L.

The densities in previous design sequences were often radically high, but 0.1 kg/L is very low. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Evening Anthony,

I think what far-trader is saying is that the numbers I came up with using the indicated T20 units of measure shows a relationship that makes more sense when put together in one place. He is not necessarily saying that the numbers I came up with reflect the RL or are the official T20 ones.

Evening Thomas,

Thanks for clarifying my statement, that's about the gist of it. Reading my thoughts again eh? Darn bargain basement psi-shield rip off scam, when I find the manufacturer hmm, made by TeeJay LIC, nah, couldn't be

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello again far-trader,

Again, you are welcome for what ever assistance I can provide, even if my attempt is out in a field, your choice, somewhere. I have a habit, which can be good or bad depending on your point of view, and a small knack for frequently being able to strain the mud away from other people's comments. Now if I could only apply this knack to my own posts I would truly be excellent at communicating thoughts.

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Evening Anthony,

I think what far-trader is saying is that the numbers I came up with using the indicated T20 units of measure shows a relationship that makes more sense when put together in one place. He is not necessarily saying that the numbers I came up with reflect the RL or are the official T20 ones.

Evening Thomas,

Thanks for clarifying my statement, that's about the gist of it. Reading my thoughts again eh? Darn bargain basement psi-shield rip off scam, when I find the manufacturer hmm, made by TeeJay LIC, nah, couldn't be

</font>[/QUOTE]