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Odegra
Guest
But what if you didn't want those? How many people who didn't want them managed to get their money refunded?
I have been waiting patiently
- Thread starter BetterThanLife
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But what if you didn't want those? How many people who didn't want them managed to get their money refunded?
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
A contract was entered into. But here's the point -- *any* time you pay money for a product to be delivered in the future, you assume a certain risk that the business will default. Does that excuse the business from defaulting? No, of course not. But you implicitely assumed some risk when you entered into the transaction and it's disengenuous to pretend otherwise.
And businesses default on their obligations all the time, without there being any malfeasance. Sometimes, things just don't work out. Unless I see strong evidence to the contrary, I am not willing to presume that Hunter acted in bad faith. Given the degree to which everyone here has used his forum, I think he's earned that much. And the fact that he apparently tried to make it up to the customers makes me think that he's honorable and acted in good faith.
So I'd lay off the righteous indignation. It's just business. And a little perspective would be nice as well. We're talking about amounts that equal ONE crappy RPG book. Surely all of us have taken worse financial beatings than that. And you would surely agree that gamers make mistakes <cough>.
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tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Then you suffered an extremely modest business loss. Get over it. Because at a time when folks are losing their homes over bad business decisions (or plain bad luck) and companies are laying off thousands of workers, this kinda whining is extremely unimpressive.
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Odegra
Guest
That's a really arrogant thing to say, are you seriously telling people how much their money should be worth to them? And whether or not people are "losing their homes" or whatever over entirely different issues has nothing to do with this at all. I'd say that in this day and age with money being tight people should do everything they can to claw back whatever money is owed to them, not letting it slip and giving up like you want them to.
Let's just go over how this is supposed to work because its seems that some people really don't understand how business works. If a customer pays for something then he expects the person he's paying to give him what he paid for. If he can't do that, then it's entirely up to the customer whether he accepts any alternatives offered instead of that and he has every right to demand and get a refund if he does not want those alternatives. And if he doesn't get his money back after demanding it, then the customer has every right to investigate legal means to get it back.
I guess if everyone told the customer in this case to shut up and suck it up and "get over it", then there's be a lot more ripped off people in the world. Fortunately most people know what their rights are and fight to get their money back from such disreptuable vendors. But given that this seems to be your attitude I know I wouldn't want to give you any money for any product you're selling.
And whether hunter is acting in good faith or not isn't the point. The point is that he's not here, he's failed to contact or pay his authors and writers, and he's failed to provide the products that people have paid for. Whether that's by accident or by deliberate choice doesn't really matter, things still aren't being done that need to be done and people who haven't received their products or money can't be kept waiting forever.
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tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Moi, arrogant? Perish the thought...
No, I am suggesting that in the scheme of things, the economic loss suffered by these folks is hardly worthy of all the spleen venting and self-righteous indignation. And that I find such whining to be extremely annoying -- not an uncommon response, I suspect.
Apparently.
Oh yeah, I'm sure you'll have lawyers lining up to recover the vast sums you've lost.
What you seem to be missing is that there is no "getting it back" in all likelihood. And since the US does not have debtor's prison (plus, Hunter is almost certainly not personally liable for business debts of QLI), what, exactly, is the purpose of all this pissing and moaning? If Hunter is like every other business owner I've ever met, he already feels like crap about this. What else do you want? Is it really necessary to continue to rub it in?
The problem is that you don't seem to be able to tell the difference between being intentionally ripped off and an incredibly modest business deal simply not working out. I see no reason to presume that you were defrauded. Rather, it looks to me like a marginal business venture went South. Happens every day and costs many folks FAR more than it has cost anyone here.
So I'll type this real slowly for you so you can understand it: GET OVER IT.
Even better, show a little class and cut the guy some slack.
Actually, I think most grownups know how to make an intelligent decision about whether to waste energy trying to get a very tiny amount of blood from a turnip. If Hunter could have afforded to refund your money, I'm certain he would have. Presumably, he can't and I don't expect him to commit Sepuku for it.
Again: GET OVER IT.
Well, if I ever approach you for your business, I suggest you give it to me. Because I will have exhausted every other alternative and will be on the verge of starving to death.
Actually, that's EXACTLY the point. All of your petulant, sanctimonious posturing is predicated on the assertion that you have been WRONGED.
Otherwise, you're just another unfortunate person who lost out on a (very modest) business deal who's wasting our time whining about it.
Get over it. For children.
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Kharum1
SOC-12
TB, I want you to represent me in court after I'm done ripping people off. You can laid down a line of BS that can almost stand up on its own. I tell you what. I need to make my mortgage this month so, if everyone or at least 50% of the people on this site send me $20 for one of my images I'll send it right out to you, if I feel like it. Don't worry according to my lawyer here it is too small of an amount to worry about. Lets see how much you guys sent me. Lets see if there is a 1000 people sending me $20 that equals...
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
There is a profound difference between being defrauded and a business deal simply not working out. If you agree, then please consider why we should presume that Hunter acted in bad faith?
<deep breath>
Look, I sell my time just like you. And I have unintentionally done free work on occasion. And I can't say that I was happy about it. So I've been there.
But at the end of the day, he can either pay you or he can't. And I *know* that any time I perform work without getting an up front payment, I am assuming a certain amount of risk. It comes with the territory.
And I've also been on the other side, working with clients who, despite their best efforts, could not make a go of their business. In every case, some -- usually most -- creditors got stiffed. Without exception, every single one of these business owners felt horrible -- embarrassed, ashamed and deeply regretting the situation. But all the sorrow in the world will not pay a single bill. Sorry situations are sorry situations.
So all I am doing is asking that you cut Hunter some slack. I have no interest here. He isn't my client. But he has dealt fairly with me in the past and I believe him to be a decent guy. I am also thankful for COI; I've derived a lot of entertainment from it. Out of gratutude, I am willing to give him every benefit of the doubt; is it so hard for you do the same? I'll admit that it's easier for me since I didn't lose money. But rest assured, I have been there. And I've practiced what I encourage you to do...though I'll admit it wasn't easy.
One thing that I am confident of -- more bitching and whining will not make him more enthusiastic about addressing these issues. Nor will it create money where none exists.
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Odegra
Guest
tbeard, there's no validity to your "argument" at all (if I can call it that). Your whole premise rests on your assumption that the amount of money that people are chasing here isn't worth chasing. That may be your opinion, but the fact of the matter is that you have no authority whatsoever to tell people what's worth something to them or that they're wasting their time chasing it.
It doesn't matter if we're talking about a guy who is owed $20 of subscriptions, or an author who is chasing $200 of royalties. Fact is, they have every right to chase it in any (legal) way they choose and you can't do a damn thing to stop it and it certainly isn't your place to judge them.
So while you tell everyone to "get over it" without any authority, I'll tell you to "butt the hell out" knowing that I have the force of the law behind me.
It doesn't matter if we're talking about a guy who is owed $20 of subscriptions, or an author who is chasing $200 of royalties. Fact is, they have every right to chase it in any (legal) way they choose and you can't do a damn thing to stop it and it certainly isn't your place to judge them.
So while you tell everyone to "get over it" without any authority, I'll tell you to "butt the hell out" knowing that I have the force of the law behind me.
captainjack
SOC-13
two things:
One, I think his point is that there is a difference between pursuing your rights and going out of ones way to cause as much trouble as possible, as it were....in other words, do you want justice or revenge ?
Two: just curiosity - any relation to dread_sigil Odegra over on RPG net ?
Theophilus
SOC-13
Just two months ago Hunter was still promising a product, using the same excuse as the one last year. Waiting on artwork.
If QLI went bankrupt or was "In Default" I might buy tb's argument. But I haven't seen any evidince that such is the case.
Kharum1 is still submittng artwork to a default company, for a cancelled priduct?
Doesn't sound like it to me when I read the posts.
If QLI went bankrupt or was "In Default" I might buy tb's argument. But I haven't seen any evidince that such is the case.
Kharum1 is still submittng artwork to a default company, for a cancelled priduct?
Doesn't sound like it to me when I read the posts.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Actually, I never opined on QLI's status -- I have no idea what it is. I only noted that it's hardly shocking or unusual for businesses to default on their obligations, especially marginal businesses like (most) game companies.
All I have said is that I am certain that no one was defrauded. I'm equally certain that Hunter fully intended to honor his obligations when (a) he accepted payment or (b) accepted artwork and written text. The fact that he was unable to do so does not mean that he intentionally refused to honor those obligations. Listen carefully to this: someone can default on business obligations and still be acting in good faith. Sometimes, business doesn't work out.
And I note that Hunter tried to make it right by doing what he could. That this did not satisfy some customers does not change the fact that he did at least try. Many businesses would have just said "too bad".
And breaking the guy's balls over this (a) won't magically enable him to make it right; (b) is extremely irritating to me (and others apparently); (c) shows little appreciation for the things he's done right (such as put a lot of work into making COI the biggest Traveller forum); and (d) seems increasingly shrill and petty, given the modest amounts that are at stake.
Regarding art, I'd be interested in discussing buying/commissioning art for my modern miniature rules. There will be a sci-fi supplement, so Traveller style vehicle art might be appropriate. Anyone who's interested can PM me with rates and samples. (I'd pay up front). I'm not planning to spend a fortune or anything, but I am willing to consider sprucing the game up.
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tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
I'm making no arguments. I'm merely stating facts and opinion.
No my premise is that in all likelihood, Hunter has done all that he reasonably could to make it right. And that he has acted in good faith.
As I've noted elsewhere -- businesses fail to deliver all the time and in my experience, bad faith is often absent. Business transactions are inherently risky and some times things just don't work out.
And the force of the law won't magically create one dime.
Look, no one is saying that you haven't suffered a loss. What we're saying is that this was almost certainly not the result of malice. So please...try to get over it. For your own sake as well as others. And would it kill you to cut the guy some slack?
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Border Reiver
SOC-14 1K
:rofl::rofl:
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Odegra
Guest
How many times do we need to "cut the guy some slack" exactly? This isn't the first time he's left everyone hanging. Last time he vanished without a trace for over a year. This time he's vanished for two months and counting.
Maybe it's not done in "bad faith", but he's making a habit of disappearing with no contingencies. Whether he has any control over that or not doesn't matter, he's still not doing the things that he needs to be doing. And you telling people to "chill out" or "get over it" makes it sound like you somehow think that they are the ones doing something wrong when in fact Hunter's absense is what is causing all the problems. It doesn't matter that he's "done a few things right" and made token attempts to fix the damage his longer absence caused, the fact is he's done a lot more important things wrong, like not paying his writers royalties and not being in contact with them.
You find my attitude annoying? Well I find your attitude even more annoying because you're telling people that they shouldn't care about their money when you have no place to do that. So like I said why don't you can the "get over it" crap and this can all get a lot more civil.
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Roger Calver
Guest
As Hunter's had problems in the past of extended time-outs from CotI then he should have put plans into place to prevent problems if it happened again.
Quite simple like backup admin members, fallback email accounts (you know every been to a internet cafe ?) and talking to your mod team.
So now that hes updating the hosting he can remove my mod status and DELETE my CotI account as Im sick to the back teeth of his unprofessional way of working.
If he cant do this by Sunday then one of the other mod guys can do it for me.
Either way, I hope that everyone here continues to enjoy themself with CotI.
Rog.
Quite simple like backup admin members, fallback email accounts (you know every been to a internet cafe ?) and talking to your mod team.
So now that hes updating the hosting he can remove my mod status and DELETE my CotI account as Im sick to the back teeth of his unprofessional way of working.
If he cant do this by Sunday then one of the other mod guys can do it for me.
Either way, I hope that everyone here continues to enjoy themself with CotI.
Rog.
captainjack
SOC-13
Hmmmm....okay....I guessing you're looking for revenge -and since I doubt that any of your money has gone missing in this, I wonder what for.
And no response at all to a question about being dread_sigil......
........interesting.
Hey ,Ty - a question ......suppose someone went to the trouble of making a sock puppet account on a forum they were banned from, simply to get involved in accusations of fraud and to generally damage someones business reputation, you know the person who banned them - how would that play in a defamation case or general civil lawsuit ? Particulalry if it turned out they had no financial interest in the issue, at all ?
Theophilus
SOC-13
All right, let's go back to the basic questions:
1. Has anyone had contact with Hunter either on forum or otherwise? (phone, email, snail mail, private post etc.)
2. Is the TA Solomani ships still coming out or not?
1. Has anyone had contact with Hunter either on forum or otherwise? (phone, email, snail mail, private post etc.)
2. Is the TA Solomani ships still coming out or not?
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Odegra
Guest
What is there to respond to? I guess that person must have read Good Omens and got his name from there like me, but you think i am the same guy? Jeez you guys are paranoid.
Besides, I have made absolutely no accusations of "fraud" here. I don't know why Hunter isn't replying to anyone or getting in touch with people he owes money to, all I am saying is that there's really no excuse for him not doing that and that people have a right to chase him up over it and it's nobody else's business to comment on them doing that. Other people are saying that too so I don't know why you are singling me out. And Hunters business reputation is damaged enough as it is, the facts speak for themselves there and nothing I am saying is adding to that. Meanwhile accusing people of trying to do that is itself pretty malicious and slanderous.
So howabout everyone just chill out and take a deep breath here.
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