Imperial Army Craft

[aramis]

I have never owned Invasion: Earth but I recall once someone (Aramis?) said that it was really a planetary invasion mechanism for MegaTrav in disguise. Has anybody played/owned Invasion:Earth and can comment how it handled the types of issues we have discussed in this thread? Is supply and logistics a consideration for instance? Does the Imperial player have to capture a highport/downport first (as might be suggested by the canon descriptions of the climactic battle of the Solomani Rim War) and subsequently use it as a supply hub? Do Marines have to go in first before Army troops? Are all assaulting troops shipped in the Assault Rons evident in the counter-sheets? What is their capacity? What is the role of Solomani planetary defences on Terra?

Not exactly; it is the source for the tables in MT's Ref's Companion for expected regimental strengths. It can be used as a world-surface combat system as well, but is not tied to any edition. (It came out during CT, FWIW.)

Supply is handled "below the radar" as it were, since the scale is large enough and Earth friendly enough that it isn't a major issue. Supply chains are handled by abstract means.

 

[Butch Clor]

Additional military capable transports

The first ships taken have already been paid a subsidy to be available in times of war. Given the number of major wars, five frontier wars in how many centuries, this may be a good bet.

They are also being paid in both cash and good will for helping the war effort.

Maybe even less. In some situations it may even be a case of phoning the local factor and booking a charter for a jump or two.


I mentioned it as one of the few ways for the civilian ships to get excitement. It's a very specialized task and extremely unlikely. Missions for the PCs, however...

One source of additional transports woult be the TI Class of 2k ton Ships owned by Imperiallines. These were the cover for the undercover Imperial high jump courier system. In case of war almost all of ILines ships would have been contracted to the military. These all came with 10 hardpoints and could be easily be up-armed from Navy stores.
Another source would be the bulk jump ships as refered to in Fighting Ships, in and The CT class of cargo ships in MT, .

Butch Clor

 

[Captain Midnight]

Captain Midnight has some good answers for the assumptions he makes, but the answers may not fit other campaigns.

Exactly. There may be some things that need to be addressed in the context of "How do I want my campaign to work?", and you need to think about those well in advance of it coming up. There are implications for various premises, and while you can get to pretty much whatever endpoint you'd like, you should be aware of how the path to that destination is going to warp your game universe.

To get away from the metagame discussion here and back to the matter at hand, if you're assuming that large governments taking up civilian vessels into service would be modeled on something like the present-day Civilian Reserve Air Fleet program, then it seems unlikely that the Imperium will have much need for most PC-scale vessels (always barring the ubiquitous Scout/Courier), but will mostly be taking over larger vessels for at least a year, and perhaps even longer. This may very well not affect your game directly, but it can prove to be a useful background for other events. However, if you want to have the Navy grabbing anything that flies, that implies a certain lack of pre-planning, which not only implies some other things about the Imperium, but can be a more action-packed environment for your players. Maybe that's good, maybe that's bad.

You're the GM, you get to make the call. Just like you can use any ruleset you want, you get to make whatever background assumptions you want as well. We can point out contradictions and possibly unintended consequences of certain assumptions, but you can decide to do whatever you want, and tell whatever kind of stories you want.

 

[flykiller]

... but will mostly be taking over larger vessels for at least a year, and perhaps even longer. This may very well not affect your game directly, but it can prove to be a useful background for other events.

the player characters, hauling a load of type C atmosphere processing repair equipment, land on a world with a type C atmosphere that has just had it's regular supply of that equipment disrupted by the recent shipping seizure. buyers line up. "we need that in level D." "no, we need it in the domes!" a bidding war ensues, followed by riots, followed by a full-scale battle over the player characters' ship.

new idea - commerce raiders. they don't just destroy existing commerce, they also supply newly cut-off worlds with critical cargo in exchange for information on enemy military movements, or something like.

 

[Butch Clor]

Return from mothballs

And please continue to do so. I'd just like it better if you made sure any newbie who happens to read your opinion doesn't mistake it for a fact.

Oh sure. No argument there. A lot of the escorts and other auxiliaries will be attached to CruRons and BarRons in wartime. Did I ever say anything to the contrary? If so, it was inadvertently.

But seeing as the Imperium break up BatRons and station individual ships (or, more likely, individual divisions) in separate systems in peacetime (Fighting Ships), some of the escorts may be detached for other jobs too.

But that's just it. We have rules for how long it takes to build ships and for how long it takes to reactivate mothballed ships. Quite possibly those rules are not exact but simplified for RPG purposes, but I don't think it is unreasonable to accept them as ballpark figures. And if it takes, say, two months to reactivate a cruiser and the Domain still haven't reactivated all its cruisers after three years, you can either assume that Admiral Numbbrain preferred building one new cruiser to reactivating ten mothballed ones, and that his political superiors allowed him to do so, or you can assume that there were a lot of mothballed cruisers.
Hans

In the reference to the AHL cruisers being refurbished and returned to service
for service with the DoD's Patrol, remember the "Patrol" was primarily, Aslan. So refurbishing would require all controls and quarters be set for Aslan use. THis would be almost be rebuild of these items with an appropriately long build time.

Butch

 

[Butch Clor]

IMTU The Army is the Anvil that stomps All!

In my Traveller universe the Army is who you call when you want to get the enemies attention by marching down that wide avenue which leads to his capitol building; in his relatively intact Capitol City
The marines are fast response commando level assault forces, rarely seen in forces larger than a company or Light Battalion in anything smaller than a true interstellar war. Even the few Regiments only have the organic artillery batteries from the battalions. The only regimental asset is a small Ortillery Squadron and a Close-Support fighter Squadron. Marines assauly by drop capsule to make attacks on the planetary based fire control bases for Mason Guns and ADA missle artillery. Then follow up forces land by Grav APC ,supported by organic elements. If the planet has a moon in orbit this will have to be captured or subdued first. Also If there is a large High Port or naval base this will have to be taken.
As a note: the Battle Rider Squadron in the "Spinward Marches Campaign" only carried a total of 667 Marines. This is just a battalion and if only 10 % are left behind as ships troops that leaves deployable 600 marines.
Remember at TL-12(CT) or above there will be fireteam based weapons capable of taking out Battledress equipped troops. To successfully conduct Commando assaults numbers normally should be no worse than even. Even with a TL differential that could mean up to 50% casualities in the assault force, even if successful. This unit is not going to be following up with much else until brought up to stregnth.
Enter the Army's first strike force the Regimental Combat Team. Regt HqRecon and Armor Troops, and medical, service and support units; 3 Battalion combat teams: Btn Hq, Recon Platoon, Service and Support, 3 Line companies(Mech Inf, Lt.(Zero G) inf, Armored Cavalry, or Armor; Artillery Battery, Engineer Company. Then Regimental Engineer Company, and Heavy Artillery Battalion.
IMTU there is an Infantry (Mech and Lt.), Armored Cavalry, and Armored RCT for each Sector. Combined they can serve as an ad Hoc Division. These units have dedicated transport under contract.
Add An Imperial Army Division per Subsector, TL-14-15, this gives 10 Divisions for the Spinward Marches, 2 Corps of 3 Divisions and one of 4. In other words a Field Army.
In the Spinward Marches there are 12 worlds with populations of a Billion or better. and TL's of 12 or Better with at least 3; Mora, Trin and Rhylanor of TL-15 If each world contributed a Corp sized combined arms force this gives a field army of TL 15 troops and 3 more of TL-13 average., not too shabby. This gives a total of 6 field Armies of tL 13+.
In interstellar War, First points of war-- Obtain foreward bases---Destroy the enemy Fleet---Isolate his high tech high pop worlds--- Take those worlds by siege and invasion. To complete the latter, then you need an army to go in and dig out the oppisition. Marines can hit, but just don't have staying power much past a week to ten days, the Army hits the ground ready to go for at least 30 days, on the initial load out. Everything else come in 30 day increments.

Just my own opinions and observations.
Butch

 

[Garyius2003]

The United States now is a classic TL high 8 (without grav tech, darn it) and our regiments can now cover what the division used to at TL6 both for invasion and for occupation. Assuming that this increase continues every few tech levels with advanced sensors armor/flying belts/grav APCs....

occupying a world of several billion people with a TL14 (or 13) army force is still going to require several divisions of troops.

 

[mbrinkhues]

The United States now is a classic TL high 8 (without grav tech, darn it) and our regiments can now cover what the division used to at TL6 both for invasion and for occupation. Assuming that this increase continues every few tech levels with advanced sensors armor/flying belts/grav APCs....

occupying a world of several billion people with a TL14 (or 13) army force is still going to require several divisions of troops.

For Invasion and holding the Advanced Edge of Defence that force effectiveness might be true. But assuming you want to occupy the country WWII France style and get some use out of it's industrie you will need lots of boots (and leather raincoats) on the ground. That is even more true in the relatively "robot poor" Traveller universe.

Grav vehicles can do no better in a roadblock than a bunch of guys in a sandbagged bunker and any resistance you catch in the open and in large units can be killed just as easily by a Thorhammer. So any useful resistance will work in the cities, thick woods/jungles, well-caved hills etc. The higher the tech the more ratholes.

IMHO once the main resistance is overcome it's time to fix loudspeakers to the G-Carriers and start playing "Paint it black" while you drive towards the enemy. Beltfed Gaus-MG anyone?

 

[jec10]

The United States now is a classic TL high 8 (without grav tech, darn it) and our regiments can now cover what the division used to at TL6 both for invasion and for occupation. Assuming that this increase continues every few tech levels with advanced sensors armor/flying belts/grav APCs....

occupying a world of several billion people with a TL14 (or 13) army force is still going to require several divisions of troops.

The key mistake in this post is including "occupation". Crumbs, hasn't Iraq taught anything?!

Kicking in the door, taking down a command structure and seizing key territory - yes, a networked brigade may be able to do the work of a division.

Occupying a territory that doesn't want to be occupied - you need boots on the ground. Unless you're the Zho of course and can read everyone's minds! There is a great old CT adventure from JTAS 9 (called "Soft Bunk" by LKW) where a TL9 Zho colonial forces battalion from Querion tries to occupy a world (Tionale - Spinward Marches 1511) with a human pop of only 8800 (plus a minor race of aliens in the outback). Loren's final advice in the article is, "The referee should keep in mind that Zhodani high officers are psionic,
and spies among the city's population will quickly be apprehended".

 

[mbrinkhues]

The key mistake in this post is including "occupation". Crumbs, hasn't Iraq taught anything?!

Kicking in the door, taking down a command structure and seizing key territory - yes, a networked brigade may be able to do the work of a division.

Occupying a territory that doesn't want to be occupied - you need boots on the ground. Unless you're the Zho of course and can read everyone's minds! There is a great old CT adventure from JTAS 9 (called "Soft Bunk" by LKW) where a TL9 Zho colonial forces battalion from Querion tries to occupy a world (Tionale - Spinward Marches 1511) with a human pop of only 8800 (plus a minor race of aliens in the outback). Loren's final advice in the article is, "The referee should keep in mind that Zhodani high officers are psionic,
and spies among the city's population will quickly be apprehended".

Guess it will be a nice race between the Zhos trying to scan everyone and find the Resistance and the Resistance sniping at everything looking remotely like an officer. Since not all Zho officers are Telepath and IIRC a Teep must actively scan a target, I bet on la Resistance.

Okay, time for an Aqua Vichi and then I go and shoot Mr. Ugarte. Ach zee dutie is hard for zee Germans

 

[Garyius2003]

The key mistake in this post is including "occupation". Crumbs, hasn't Iraq taught anything?!

Kicking in the door, taking down a command structure and seizing key territory - yes, a networked brigade may be able to do the work of a division.

.

My Imperium may be a little darker than that. When the most likely news from a world of only one billion people to the Imperium will be 'On Dingbat One in the wilds of the Marches pro-Zho terrorists...[killed a few Marines and their stronghold was destroyed]...on to more important news, Baroness Harper-Virrgle today published her guidelines for proper fashion to be worn at any Nobel event, carefully slightling the more informal approach advocated by Duchess..."

America is having a lot of problems in Iraq because they care about being good and just and they allow a free press even in the region. The Imperium may or may not care depending on who the local nobels are, but they don't have to worry about news and their version of being good and just can range up to destroying a block to get the terror missile team without subsector command 40 light years away getting very worked up. That can be done from remote sensors and grav vehicles very nicely.

The Army fire team in armor may be walking alone down the back street, but the sensors are watching and APCs and arty are just a minute away.

In fact....

[Co Commander] "This is Hammer 4-2-6, one of my fireteams is pinned by plasma weapons at able 345 216, I am transmitting sensor data and locations. The fire is coming from an apartment building. Request ortillery strike on the building and 100 meters behind to the west on the most likely route of retreat."

[Ortillery and Artillery FDC watch] "This is Overwatch, we have sensor lock from our UGV. Ortillery will take 13 minutes, but I have a Sunburst at long range and will be launching in one minute. I am transmitting a three minute warning to your team. Please have your responding APCs circle at 1 klick until the strike."

The next day [Regimental CO's briefing] "Good judgment and reaction on that plasma attack yesterday, I understand that other than the building occupants and the terror backup team only Private Johnson died. Turning to the supply list.."

 

[mbrinkhues]

My Imperium may be a little darker than that. When the most likely news from a world of only one billion people to the Imperium will be 'On Dingbat One in the wilds of the Marches pro-Zho terrorists...[killed a few Marines and their stronghold was destroyed]...on to more important news, Baroness Harper-Virrgle today published her guidelines for proper fashion to be worn at any Nobel event, carefully slightling the more informal approach advocated by Duchess..."

America is having a lot of problems in Iraq because they care about being good and just and they allow a free press even in the region. The Imperium may or may not care depending on who the local nobels are, but they don't have to worry about news and their version of being good and just can range up to destroying a block to get the terror missile team without subsector command 40 light years away getting very worked up. That can be done from remote sensors and grav vehicles very nicely.

The Army fire team in armor may be walking alone down the back street, but the sensors are watching and APCs and arty are just a minute away.

In fact....

[Co Commander] "This is Hammer 4-2-6, one of my fireteams is pinned by plasma weapons at able 345 216, I am transmitting sensor data and locations. The fire is coming from an apartment building. Request ortillery strike on the building and 100 meters behind to the west on the most likely route of retreat."

[Ortillery and Artillery FDC watch] "This is Overwatch, we have sensor lock from our UGV. Ortillery will take 13 minutes, but I have a Sunburst at long range and will be launching in one minute. I am transmitting a three minute warning to your team. Please have your responding APCs circle at 1 klick until the strike."

The next day [Regimental CO's briefing] "Good judgment and reaction on that plasma attack yesterday, I understand that other than the building occupants and the terror backup team only Private Johnson died. Turning to the supply list.."

That is not occupation. That's the "Warshaw Method". Goes quite well with black uniforms and skull-motives. Does not go so well with the locals. They are somewhat resentful and keep that up a bit longer than useful.

 

[Garyius2003]

That is not occupation. That's the "Warshaw Method". Goes quite well with black uniforms and skull-motives. Does not go so well with the locals. They are somewhat resentful and keep that up a bit longer than useful.

It is an intervention. The locals wanted to play for keeps. The Marines and Navy cleared a landing downport and the Army is there with the hammer until most sides on planet can explain to Baron Smyth why they will start behaving and stop popping nukes or otherwise interfering with the flow of commerical activity...or one side explains why they can take over and stop all those pesky barriers to commerce.

The Imperium isn't there to win their hearts and minds, it is there to make sure those 20,000 ton freighters have something to haul.

Whoever gets the nod to take over from Baron Smyth is free to be a iron fisted despot, so long as he stays away from nukes, bio, deadly chem, and slavery that effects the flow of goods---Unless the good Baron is overly bribed to make a bad decision or his heartstrings are tugged into doing the same (in which case he won't ever get another chance to make an important decision).

The locals can love the Imperium for saving them from Zho mind slavery or the flow of TL15 goods, or they can fear the hammer of the Sunburst. All they have to do is keep commerical shipping moving.

 

[mbrinkhues]

And from historical experience that is what WON'T happen. Fighting a guerilla war in urban settings will result in the total destruction of those settings if the Impies take out the big guns and missiles. And guess where all the production centers happen to be. Guess further where the resistance WILL hole up and fight. Digging out fighters that do use sewers, maintenance tunnels, subway shafts and the maze of an average industrial installation with heavy firepower will end up with a city that looks like Stalingrad, Hue, Grozny or Warshaw. There won't be any more goods flowing. Unless you export broken concrete.

 

[Icosahedron]

My Imperium may be a little darker than that.
<snip>
America is having a lot of problems in Iraq because they care about being good and just and they allow a free press even in the region.

The 'Evil Empire' didn't have much more success in Afghanistan, IIRC.

Hitler didn't seem to have many problems though - I don't think the occupation of France was seriously threatened by the Resistance, was that sheer weight of numbers, lack of modern weapons, or something else? I've often wondered what the difference was. Any military historians throw some light on it?

 

[BlackBat242]

Mostly it was two things.
1. willingness to accept continuing casualties as "normal".
2. willingness to kill civilians who allow the resistance to operate in their towns.

No resistance can work without support from the populace, and most of the French populace was forcibly cowed into denying the resistance shelter, much less aid... and often into informing on them.

This reduced many willing resistance fighters to a "force in waiting"... willing to fight, but unwilling to die in an ineffective action. They began to "save themselves for when we can make a real difference", which only came with the Allied landings in Normandy.

If the invasion had not come, the resistance would have become like a social club... all talk and no action.

Few populations have the disregard for death (of either themselves or their families) shown by the Afgan tribes and Muslim extremists (and the Native American tribes, many of which fought for decades, even escaping from resettlement camps to continue the struggle).

 

[mbrinkhues]

The 'Evil Empire' didn't have much more success in Afghanistan, IIRC.

Hitler didn't seem to have many problems though - I don't think the occupation of France was seriously threatened by the Resistance, was that sheer weight of numbers, lack of modern weapons, or something else? I've often wondered what the difference was. Any military historians throw some light on it?

Actually large parts of France where not really occupied until 1943, the Vichie government ran the show. And some other occupied parts (Elsas-Lothringen) had a mixed german-french population and divided loyalties.

 

[Garyius2003]

So I have been playing with book 5 to come up with an ortillery boat at TL13. If I accept M-4/A-4, no damper, and a size 5 fib, I can make a very nice boat with over 100 tons of ortillery space and extra staterooms for the firing techs. I can get the size down to 300 tons that way.

Anyone have any reason that I should instead go big, with a massive boat that can also be a command/FDC center?

I figure 10 of these these small boats are just as good as a huge boat, and will survive due to numbers.

 

[flykiller]

Anyone have any reason that I should instead go big, with a massive boat ....

if anyone might shoot at it, then it needs ag6 9fib and armor.

if no-one is likely ever to shoot at it, then ag1 and whatever computer works is sufficient.

personally I'd go with ag6 9fib and armor, just on general principles. meaning, yes, I'd just use a regular naval battle group. I'd never leave troops alone on the ground.

 

[flykiller]

just a bump