Imperial Marines vs Zhodani Consular Guard

[McPerth]

While following the discussions about the Zhodani fighters, I was led to the Whiki pages about the Zhodani Navy and the Zhodani in general.

In the Consular Guard entry in the Zhodani page we can read:

The Consular Guard is an elite force serving the same role as special forces, commandos, veteran or other specialized troops in other militaries. Consular Guard units are fully the equivalent of the Third Imperium's Imperial Marines, and like the Marines specialize in first response with their own dedicated military transport, potent well-equipped logistics, and organic combat support at all levels (air defense, artillery, communications, etc.). A Consular Guard force can quickly deploy, arrive at a combat zone, and engage the enemy

(bold is mine)

While the Consular Guard and the Marines have often been compared, in both cases being the elite forces of their respective empires, I see too many differences as to accept they are fully equivalents.

Being no expert in the Zhodani, I'd wish to discuss it with those here that are more so than myself. So, I sumarize here the main differences I think among them, to see to which point I'm right or wrong. I putthem in a table (that might be enlarged as I think more on it), mostly taken from the Mercenary CharGen in CT:LBB4 and CT:AM4 or inferred from FFW countermix, and giving a numerical to each point to ease discusion (if someone feels it worth to be discussed):

point#	issue	I Marines	Consular Guard
1	Higher command echelon	I. Navy	Not sure if independent or Army
2	Prime requisite	Physical fitness	Psionics
3	Primary mission	Navy support and dirtside actions	Spearhead attacks/comando actions
4	Special branches	Commandos Jump troops	Teleporting comandos Jump troops Taverchedl'

See also that CG has no enlisted men, as, being fully staffed by Intendents and Nobles, they are (at least) warrant officers.

 

[Procopius]

I think that statement was intended to mean they're equal in capability, not mirror images of the Imperial Marines. I would assume one of the reasons the 5FW losses were so devastating to the Consular Guard was the difficulty of finding replacements that were not only equal to the Imperial Marines in combat ability, but also psionic, probably a pretty shallow pool to draw from even with thousands of worlds.

 

[McPerth]

I think that statement was intended to mean they're equal in capability, not mirror images of the Imperial Marines.

And that's the point: I don't believe they are equal in capability, mostly because they are thought for different missions and with very different doctrine.

I would assume one of the reasons the 5FW losses were so devastating to the Consular Guard was the difficulty of finding replacements that were not only equal to the Imperial Marines in combat ability, but also psionic, probably a pretty shallow pool to draw from even with thousands of worlds.

That's a good point I didn't think about. You're right about the replacement problems for the Consular Guard, though I expect them to be less demandant in physical prowess, psionics being more important.

 

[Quint]

After some consideration I think Procopius got it right. "Equivalent" is relatively unambiguous, though it is also important that you missed the other important comparison in the original text that you quoted.

Plus, to be honest, that page (upon review) is kind of a mess of amalgamated sources. I'm have no idea where the psionic requirement comes from (it must be TNE because I have all the rest of the texts and I can't find there - I was curious because I didn't remember such a thing). In addition it misses (or ignores) the GT distinction between the civilian Thought Police and the Military Thought Police (which is a part of the CG).

It's pretty clear through the source material, across editions, that the number of psionic troops within the Zhodani armed forces is pretty small comparatively. Zhodani Commandos (the t-porters) are pretty rare and perhaps exclusively aligned with the CG (according to CT AM4 Commandos are Army, Thought Police are CG, not checking later editions right now), but they are not even the majority of the CG (they are only 2% of the entire Zhodani fighting force during the 5FW).

CT has the strong suggestion that the CG is under the Navy but doesn't say that outright that I can recall. GT has it as an independent command under the Zhodani High Council.

Hope this helps!

D.

 

[samuelvss]

You're right about the replacement problems for the Consular Guard, though I expect them to be less [demanding] in physical prowess, psionics being more important.

Yes, but physical prowess necessary to be an IM is both more widespread and more easily developed than psionics. For instance, if we said that an above-average recruit for the IM was 8+ in Str End and Int., this would include over 7% of the population. If I read the Psionics rules right, it would be a lot harder and longer process to get a teleport trained to a commando levels. My SWAG is that out of a population of 1 Million, it would take 18 months to get 6 teleports trained to teleport with equipment, where in the same period you could get 70,000 IM's through basic and unit training. Of course, no all the CG's are teleports, but even if it were only 10%, it would still be about 2 orders of magnitude harder to train up a CG than an IM unit.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

While following the discussions about the Zhodani fighters, I was led to the Whiki pages about the Zhodani Navy and the Zhodani in general.

In the Consular Guard entry in the Zhodani page we can read:

(bold is mine)

While the Consular Guard and the Marines have often been compared, in both cases being the elite forces of their respective empires, I see too many differences as to accept they are fully equivalents.

Being no expert in the Zhodani, I'd wish to discuss it with those here that are more so than myself. So, I sumarize here the main differences I think among them, to see to which point I'm right or wrong. I putthem in a table (that might be enlarged as I think more on it), mostly taken from the Mercenary CharGen in CT:LBB4 and CT:AM4 or inferred from FFW countermix, and giving a numerical to each point to ease discusion (if someone feels it worth to be discussed):

point#	issue	I Marines	Consular Guard
1	Higher command echelon	I. Navy	Not sure if independent or Army
2	Prime requisite	Physical fitness	Psionics
3	Primary mission	Navy support and dirtside actions	Spearhead attacks/comando actions
4	Special branches	Commandos Jump troops	Teleporting comandos Jump troops Taverchedl'

See also that CG has no enlisted men, as, being fully staffed by Intendents and Nobles, they are (at least) warrant officers.

Hi McPerth,

I am the actual author of much of that language. I got frustrated awhile back that so much information for the major races is so spread out across so many sources. So, I started going over every source I could find and started consolidating it on the wiki page. If you look in the edit history of the page, you'll see my name all over it. I am certainly not the only contributor (Many thanks to the many others like Ron and Jmattera among others), but I have started mapping out such things which shows the gaps in writing. Very few of the military entries discuss strategy, doctrine, or other important aspects of a military. I have been fixing that.

I have started writing to fill in the gaps of the knowledge and developing organization templates to allow comparison of the various militaries and military forces across Charted Space. I'd love your help if you are interested. I can help get you started and give you assignments if you like.

And, by the way, everything on the Wiki is considered non-canon even if some of it came from canon sources.

Thanks!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[McPerth]

Hi McPerth,

I am the actual author of much of that language. I got frustrated awhile back that so much information for the major races is so spread out across so many sources. So, I started going over every source I could find and started consolidating it on the wiki page. If you look in the edit history of the page, you'll see my name all over it. I am certainly not the only contributor (Many thanks to the many others like Ron and Jmattera among others), but I have started mapping out such things which shows the gaps in writing. Very few of the military entries discuss strategy, doctrine, or other important aspects of a military. I have been fixing that.

I have started writing to fill in the gaps of the knowledge and developing organization templates to allow comparison of the various militaries and military forces across Charted Space. I'd love your help if you are interested. I can help get you started and give you assignments if you like.

And, by the way, everything on the Wiki is considered non-canon even if some of it came from canon sources.

Thanks!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Well, I've never wrote anything for any wiki, and I don't fancy myself as an expert enough about Zhodani to do so about them...

I agree with you in the dispersal of the information (being sometimes even contradictory) among various supplements, and I find the Traveler wiki a good reference to fix (or at least reduce) that.

Now some comments about the points I gave in the initial post:

There's a very interesting article about Zhodani military in JTAS 11 (BTW, this JTAS issue is not among the sources listed in your article) where the Zhodani CG comandos are described, and where is told that the main requisite to enter them is the capability to teleport, not being the elite (in combat sense) that most fo us associate to the world "comando".

Of course, not all CG are such comandos (if you look at the FFW countermix, there are 3 CG divisoins that are armored forces, and I guess armor cannot be teleported). But if you look at FFW countermix, you'll find not a single CG unit is considered elite (for combat pourposes), while 1/4 of the marines (plus the huscarles, portrayed there as marines) are.

Also, there's no reference on the Zhodani texts (at least that I've read) about the Taverchedl' being a branch of the CG, but CT:AM4 Mercenary CharGen puts it as such...

 

[rancke]

Of course, not all CG are such comandos (if you look at the FFW countermix, there are 3 CG divisoins that are armored forces, and I guess armor cannot be teleported).

ISTR a mention (in one of the GT books?) of a teleport device built into the commando battledresses that allowed the wearer to ignore the weight.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

ISTR a mention (in one of the GT books?) of a teleport device built into the commando battledresses that allowed the wearer to ignore the weight.

As I understand teleporting, the limits on equipment you can teleport will be directed by mass, not weight (and after all, it's listed in kg and g, that are mass units). Even so ,as at teleport 9 you can only teleport as many kg as your strenght (I'd make it Psi dependent, not Str dependent, BTW), I guess they'll either make very light BD or teleport comandos cannot wear it :CoW:. IIRC in Alien Realms they appear as wearing CA, that can be lighter.

OTOH, I guess those armored units do not represent battledress, but armored vehicles, and I really don't believe there's any way to teleport them...

 

[rancke]

OTOH, I guess those armored units do not represent battledress, but armored vehicles, and I really don't believe there's any way to teleport them...

<shrug> Tell that to the author of the text I remember (Assuming I'm remembering correctly, of course). The point was, IRRC, a technological way to compensate for that particular limitation. Invented at TL14, which is six or seven levels above what we know how to do. Who's to say what can and can't be done at TL14? I know, the writers of official setting supplements, that's who.

Though I repeat, I may be misremembering, in which case my face will be SO red.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

<shrug> Tell that to the author of the text I remember (Assuming I'm remembering correctly, of course). The point was, IRRC, a technological way to compensate for that particular limitation. Invented at TL14, which is six or seven levels above what we know how to do. Who's to say what can and can't be done at TL14? I know, the writers of official setting supplements, that's who.

Though I repeat, I may be misremembering, in which case my face will be SO red.


Hans

Fact is that I think to also have read something like this, yet it's contradictory with the explanation about teleport in LBB3. TL could only make the BD lighter, not allow the psionicist to teleport with more mass...

 

[whulorigan]

<shrug> Tell that to the author of the text I remember (Assuming I'm remembering correctly, of course). The point was, IRRC, a technological way to compensate for that particular limitation. Invented at TL14, which is six or seven levels above what we know how to do. Who's to say what can and can't be done at TL14? I know, the writers of official setting supplements, that's who.

Though I repeat, I may be misremembering, in which case my face will be SO red.

There is this in MgT: Alien Module 4: Zhodani (p. 77):

Guards Combat Armour (TL 13):
Guards combat armour is based on the earlier officer model (including the computer weave and communications system) but has been further improved to enhance the psionic activity of the wearer. It rapidly cools or warms the body after a teleport, minimising damage from sudden energy gains or losses. This allows a character to jump up to 600 metres, up or down, in a single teleport, or up to 10 kilometres in a single hour when using successive jumps. Special wiring patterns within the armour can be switched on to provide psionic shielding; and switched off to avoid interference with psionic activity. Special glove palms can be removed to expose bare hands for psionic activity requiring physical contact.

I don't remember if that is original to MgT, or based on a description in an earlier iteration of Traveller.

 

[whulorigan]

And this (MgT Zhodani, p.76):

Teleportation Suit (TL 12): This device can be integrated into a suit of armour or worn as a form-hugging bodysuit. It rapidly cools or warms the body after a teleport, minimising the damage from sudden energy gains or losses. The suit costs Cr. 50,000 and allows a character to jump up to 600 metres up or down in a single teleport, or up to 10 kilometres in a single hour when using successive jumps.

 

[rancke]

Fact is that I think to also have read something like this...

Here we go: AR1, page 142:

"Psibernetic Web
This device is built into Zhodani Guards combat armor and battledress. It enables the user to Autoteleport without counting the weight of the suit."​

...yet it's contradictory with the explaantion about teleport in LBB3. TL could only make the BD lighter, not allow the psionicist to teleport with more mass...

How do you know what TL14 psi technology allows?

But very well. If psibernetic webs don't exist, how do Zhodani commandos dress when they go on a mission? Just how flimsy is the armor they can carry? Isn't there a writeup of a Zhodani battledress somewhere?


Hans

 

[McPerth]

There is this in MgT: Alien Module 4: Zhodani (p. 77):

I don't remember if that is original to MgT, or based on a description in an earlier iteration of Traveller.

TY.

See that according CT:AM4, the Guards Combat Armor only weights 4 kg (so allowing most soldier to teleport with it), while the Zhodani BD weights 20 kg...

 

[McPerth]

Here we go: AR1, page 142:

"Psibernetic Web
This device is built into Zhodani Guards combat armor and battledress. It enables the user to Autoteleport without counting the weight of the suit."​

But very well. If psibernetic webs don't exist, how do Zhodani commandos dress when they go on a mission? Just how flimsy is the armor they can carry? Isn't there a writeup of a Zhodani battledress somewhere?

AR stands for Alien realms?

IIRC the Zhodani comandos shown there wear Combat Armor (not Battledress)

How do you know what TL14 psi technology allows?

I don't , really

EDIT: See, through, that if the Psibernetic Web exists it can be used also for some load carrying webbing, allowing the teleport comands to carry more quipement...

 

[whulorigan]

Here we go: AR1, page 142:

"Psibernetic Web
This device is built into Zhodani Guards combat armor and battledress. It enables the user to Autoteleport without counting the weight of the suit."​

How do you know what TL14 psi technology allows?

But very well. If psibernetic webs don't exist, how do Zhodani commandos dress when they go on a mission? Just how flimsy is the armor they can carry? Isn't there a writeup of a Zhodani battledress somewhere?

MgT Zhodani, P.78 - TABLE:

Armour Type	Protection	Required Skill	Cost (Cr.)	Mass (kg)
Trooper Combat Armour (TL 11)	12	Vacc Suit 0	200,000	18
Officer Combat Armour (TL 12)	14	Vacc Suit 0	320,000	10
Guards Combat Armour (TL 13)	14	Vacc Suit 0	370,000	10
Noble Combat Armour (TL 14)	16	Vacc Suit 0	700,000	6
Trooper Battle Dress (TL 13)	16	Battle Dress 1	2,000,000	26 (6.5)*
Guards Battle Dress (TL 14)	18	Battle Dress 1	3,600,000	13 (3)*

*As powered armour, battle dress largely supports its own weight. The mass in brackets is the effective mass to the wearer while the suit is powered up and turned on. The actual mass of the suit is the normal value.
​

 

[McPerth]

MgT Zhodani, P.78 - TABLE:

Armour Type	Protection	Required Skill	Cost (Cr.)	Mass (kg)
Trooper Combat Armour (TL 11)	12	Vacc Suit 0	200,000	18
Officer Combat Armour (TL 12)	14	Vacc Suit 0	320,000	10
Guards Combat Armour (TL 13)	14	Vacc Suit 0	370,000	10
Noble Combat Armour (TL 14)	16	Vacc Suit 0	700,000	6
Trooper Battle Dress (TL 13)	16	Battle Dress 1	2,000,000	26 (6.5)*
Guards Battle Dress (TL 14)	18	Battle Dress 1	3,600,000	13 (3)*

*As powered armour, battle dress largely supports its own weight. The mass in brackets is the effective mass to the wearer while the suit is powered up and turned on. The actual mass of the suit is the normal value.
​

TY again for the information.

As I see it, I'd assume (for easiness) that the Psibernetic Web makes the effective mass (for teleport pourposes) of the BD to be the one bracketed (and assume a likely reduction for so webbed CA, perhaps to 2.5 kg)

This would allow the teleporting comandos to wear any of them.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

I will jump in and put my money on the Consular Guard in a straight up Kinetic Fight.

The capabilities of the CG with regards to Psionic collection of intelligence and exploitation overmatches the Imperial Army or Marines.also one must consider capabilities of the Scramblers is something to be contended with and despite the best of countermeasures teleports and scramblers will find a weakness and exploit it. Remember you can infer the CG will use Warbots as well. Technologically the only thing the Imperials have on the Zho's are Meson Accelerators on the Battlefield.

With regards to the replacement issues for the CG it was someone earlier who was 'spot on' regarding replacing the psionic personnel with rare skill sets.... therefore the Zho high command to deploy and use the CG has to perform a stringent cost benefit analysis ....

 

[Sir Brad]

from what I understand the Guard are an independent service arm that work alongside both the Army and Navy as well as on their own as required.

now the Guard do include Proles among their numbers (almost all Enlisted), but they are Cooks, Drivers, (junior) Pilots, Gunners, Comms Specialists, Armorers, Robotics Techs and such, basically any job where it would be a waste to give to a Psionic Officer/Commissioned Specialist, and they pick the best applicants to do these jobs. the Guard keeps a small "Tail" normally borrowing personnel from other services to work their "Tail" jobs, but they do have their own for the stuff outsiders aren't qualified on or in case their are no warm bodies on hand to borrow.