Imperial Marines vs Zhodani Consular Guard

[Meteoric Assault]

Consular Guard FFW

Interesting Stats for the Consular Guard.

In GDW's FFW the Zhodani consulate fielded:
A. 5651 Combat Factors of the Regular Consulate Army
B. 358 Combat Factors of the Colonial Army
C. 200 Combat Factors of the Consular Guard
Grand total: 6209 ground combat factors
If we use the JTAS article Zhodani Military Organization as a guide the 9 field armies and 11 army corps would field additional Consular Guard Commandos groupments attached at the corps troops level. Total 56 additional CG factors.
So that leaves us for the FFW the deployment of 256 Consular Guard Combat Factors. or 0.041% of the total combat factors fielded. this leaves me with my question is that credible representative statistic for the total factors the Zhodani Consulate has at its disposal? By comparison I assume the Imperial Marines would be smaller, but yet given the size of the third imperium are they really that small a slice of the combat power at the disposal of the Emperor?

 

[Aramais]

There is this in MgT: Alien Module 4: Zhodani (p. 77):

I don't remember if that is original to MgT, or based on a description in an earlier iteration of Traveller.

FWIW, Don McKinney's work with Canon is such that, if he wrote it (and he DID write MgT's Zhodani book) it can be assumed to be canonical.

My take is that the Consular Guard is, per se, ELITE. They are a separate and special force. Their existence does not supplant the use of good old-fashioned Marines -- after all, there are still plenty of proles for cannon-fodder.

And there are many, many proles in the Zhodani military, even if many officers are of the Noble or Intendant class. Sure, it's more FUN to have a Consular Guard teleport in behind the players...but it's ALMOST as much fun to have 5 prole Marines in battle dress do so.

A.P. Lee

 

[McPerth]

Interesting Stats for the Consular Guard.

In GDW's FFW the Zhodani consulate fielded:
A. 5651 Combat Factors of the Regular Consulate Army
B. 358 Combat Factors of the Colonial Army
C. 200 Combat Factors of the Consular Guard
Grand total: 6209 ground combat factors
If we use the JTAS article Zhodani Military Organization as a guide the 9 field armies and 11 army corps would field additional Consular Guard Commandos groupments attached at the corps troops level. Total 56 additional CG factors.
So that leaves us for the FFW the deployment of 256 Consular Guard Combat Factors. or 0.041% of the total combat factors fielded. this leaves me with my question is that credible representative statistic for the total factors the Zhodani Consulate has at its disposal? By comparison I assume the Imperial Marines would be smaller, but yet given the size of the third imperium are they really that small a slice of the combat power at the disposal of the Emperor?

In fact, with the nubers you give us, they would represent just over 3% (200/6209=3.22%, a little more if you exclude the colonial troops from the total) of the Zhodani forces, not a 0.041%.

According page 26 JTAS 11, the Zhodani CG commandos represent about 2% of Zhodani forces. Off course, not all CG would be commandos, (at least the armored ones would not be able to so teleport, I guess), and we could expect some additional such critical units to have been brought from other sectors before the offensive...

As for the comparison with the Marines, I dont expect them to be such a small force, as they are the dirtside arm of the main Imperial political weapon: the IN. We also must think that they have a larger pool to recruit, both because the Imperium is larger and because they have not such a prerequisite as having PSI 9 and positive to Teleport.

OTOH, the Imperium has more borders to control than the Consulate (the Consulate does not have such large allegedly hostile political entities as the Aslan or the Solomani Confederation in their far borders), and so more of them need to be kept in other sectors (aside from having less previous planing).

 

[McPerth]

My take is that the Consular Guard is, per se, ELITE. They are a separate and special force. Their existence does not supplant the use of good old-fashioned Marines -- after all, there are still plenty of proles for cannon-fodder.

That depends on what to you understand for elite. It's quite clear in the article in JTAS 11 that the CG commandos are chosen for their ability to Teleport, not for their phisical fitness or combat prowess (as most elite units are), and they are not all of them undergone such a school as the Commando School, if Advanced Chargen is to hint us something...

See that in FFW countermix, not a single Zhodani CG unit is labeled as elite, while 16 out of 46 IM factors (so about 1/3) are.

And there are many, many proles in the Zhodani military, even if many officers are of the Noble or Intendant class. Sure, it's more FUN to have a Consular Guard teleport in behind the players...but it's ALMOST as much fun to have 5 prole Marines in battle dress do so.

But the prole Marines (I asume the Zhodani Navy also has them or their equivalent) do not appear from nowhere...

 

[McPerth]

from what I understand the Guard are an independent service arm that work alongside both the Army and Navy as well as on their own as required.

now the Guard do include Proles among their numbers (almost all Enlisted), but they are Cooks, Drivers, (junior) Pilots, Gunners, Comms Specialists, Armorers, Robotics Techs and such, basically any job where it would be a waste to give to a Psionic Officer/Commissioned Specialist, and they pick the best applicants to do these jobs. the Guard keeps a small "Tail" normally borrowing personnel from other services to work their "Tail" jobs, but they do have their own for the stuff outsiders aren't qualified on or in case their are no warm bodies on hand to borrow.

While I mostly agree with you, not so much about the bold parts:

• For comms specialists, it's my guess that CG makes a high use of Telepathy for this, as its quite a safe way for it (and cannot be jammed nor intercepted). At the level Tepelathy is no longer useful (longer distances, etc., moslty at battalion level and above), I agree with you.
• For the Robotics techs, the fact most robots have psionic flickers makes me think most of them are psionically trained, and so either Intendent Warrant Officers or Noble Officers.

And in any case, this "tail" will be left behind in combat opperations, if only because they are not able to teleport with the combat units.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

In fact, with the nubers you give us, they would represent just over 3% (200/6209=3.22%, a little more if you exclude the colonial tropos from the total) of the Zhodani forces, not a 0.041%.

According page 26 JTAS 11, the Zhodani CG commandos represent about 2% of Zhodani forces. Off course, not all CG would be commandos, (at least the armored ones would not be able to so teleport, I guess), and we could expect some additional such critical units to have been brought from other sectors before the offensive...

As for the comparison with the Marines, I dont expect them to be such a small force, as they are the dirtside arm of the main Imperial political weapon: the IN. We also must think that they have a larger pool to recruit, both because the Imperium is larger and because they have not such a prerequisite as having PSI 9 and positive to Teleport.

OTOH, the Imperium has more borders to control than the Counsulate (the Counsulate does not have such large allegedly hostile political entities as the Aslan or the Solomani COnfederation in their far borders), and so more of them need to be kept in other sectors (aside from having less previous planing).

I stand corrected 4.1% (forgot to adjust the decimal point) of the total factors of total Zhodani Ground Forces Deployed in the FFW are Consular Guard. I say the Marines are small slice by comparison to size of the Imperial & Colonial Armies. Next Point, granted the Imperial marines have a larger recruiting pool, but there is one discriminating factor the recruit being able to master the tech level 15 skills and equipment. I seriously doubt you can take a TL 8 recruit and expect them to master Battledress and a FGMP-14/15? Further I am disagreement with the notion that they are the main political weapon. they are an expeditionary force, not a occupation or main battle force. The Imperial Army and Navy are the 'big stick' politically. If they were the main political instrument dirt side then we would see larger formations... much larger.

I counter the argument that the Zhodani Consulate "has less of a threat on its borders" ... Minor States (not all are friendly) rimward, .... the Crazy and Unstable Vargr Trailing ... and who knows what lurks Coreward?

 

[Meteoric Assault]

THat depends on what to you understand for elite. It's quite clear in the article in JTAS 11 that the CG commandos are chosen for their ability to Teleport, not for their phisical fitness or combat prowess (as most elite units are), and they are not all of them undergone such a school as the Commando School, if Advanced Chargen is t ohint us something...

If one recalls the alien module 4 Zhodani the entry in the Consular Guard is tough... Entry is 14+ with Dm's from Stren 7+ and Psi 9+, and of course Social 10+ . So I think that the physical requirements across the board are present. And one has to take into consideration that the development of fighting men involves physical conditioning. From RL experience the 'sweat saves blood' lived it. So the CG physical prowess shouldn't even be an issue of comparison.

Here is were I am going to interject some RL experience. If your unit mission template is an elite light infantry one : raids, snatches, etc... as the Zhodani Commandos then the troops need to be up to the task physically and skills proficiency. So they are Elite. (Sua Sponte for those who can figure it out)

To further interject an elite CG Unit with First Fire is so OP in FFW ... could you imagine the one of the Two CG mech Divisions Elite x2, Armored x2? ( can you stack this?) and 'first fire' yeah it would upset the game somewhat.

This argument brings back the nostalgia of Paratroopers vs. Marines who would win... easy answer who ever shoots first and hits.

 

[aramis]

While I mostly agree with you, not so much about the bold parts:

• For comms specialists, it's my guess that CG makes a high use of Telepathy for this, as its quite a safe way for it (and cannot be jammed nor intercepted).

it can be intercepted by another telepath... kind of... by reading the mind of the sender or recipient.

 

[Sir Brad]

While I mostly agree with you, not so much about the bold parts:

• For comms specialists, it's my guess that CG makes a high use of Telepathy for this, as its quite a safe way for it (and cannot be jammed nor intercepted). At the level Tepelathy is no longer useful (longer distances, etc., moslty at battalion level and above), I agree with you.
• For the Robotics techs, the fact most robots have psionic flickers makes me think most of them are psionically trained, and so either Intendent Warrant Officers or Noble Officers.

And in any case, this "tail" wil lbe left behind in combat opperations, if only because they are not able to teleport with the combat units.

A military operation puts out a lot of Com Traffic just as a matter of course, a lot more than can be fueled by Teeps on Doubble, and that's just in a few minuets, then what about Data, try sending a .map file over the Psi Net.

for Robots, don't need to be able to Flick to fit a pisionic switch, just need a few pisionics in a combo Command/Tester role at section or platoon level.

The GURPS book on the Joes had a good look at the Guard and Guard Commandos, even giving TO&E tables.

 

[McPerth]

I stand corrected 4.1% (forgot to adjust the decimal point) of the total factors of total Zhodani Ground Forces Deployed in the FFW are Consular Guard.

I guessed this (forgeting to adjust the decimals) was the problem. Even so (regardless they being a 3.2 or a 4.1% of their forces), the JTAS article puts the CG comandos at about 2% of their forces, so I keep guessing they have brought CG units from elsewhere for the war.

I say the Marines are small slice by comparison to size of the Imperial & Colonial Armies. Next Point, granted the Imperial marines have a larger recruiting pool, but there is one discriminating factor the recruit being able to master the tech level 15 skills and equipment. I seriously doubt you can take a TL 8 recruit and expect them to master Battledress and a FGMP-14/15?

I guess this same TL limiting factor applies to CG units (as they are equiped at TL 14)...

In any case, see that most TL 14-15 systems are HiPop ones (as the DM modifiers for it are quite good to achieve them), so representing a quite bigger part of the total population that the number of systems would hint.

As an example, while only a handful worlds in Spinward Marches are TL 15, just Mora, Rhylanor, Trim and Glisten hava a combined population of 36 billion, far over what just 4 systems might seem...

Further I am disagreement with the notion that they are the main political weapon. they are an expeditionary force, not a occupation or main battle force. The Imperial Army and Navy are the 'big stick' politically. If they were the main political instrument dirt side then we would see larger formations... much larger.

I'm afraid I explained myself poorly here. What I meant to be the main political weapon for the Imperium is the Navy, not the Marines, but the Marines are their dirstide arm, and I guess they are quite larger than most people expects.

In fact, as I see the Imperium (as right or wrong as any other's sight), the Imperial Army (if it exists at all, as this has been subject to discussion) is the smallest of its armed services, being mainly a cadre/support structure that feeds on planetary units as needed, while the Marines are the standing combat forces for the Imperium.

As the Imperium rules the space between stars, not the planets, the Navy (with its dirtside arm) is what it needs, more than planetary forces.

I counter the argument that the Zhodani Consulate "has less of a threat on its borders" ... Minor States (not all are friendly) rimward, .... the Crazy and Unstable Vargr Trailing ... and who knows what lurks Coreward?

But it has no other large political entity than the Imperiun on its borders to protect from. Most threats you talk about are minor, and just a handful of squadrons can deal with them, due to lower TL, lower size, disorganization, or any combination of them.

 

[McPerth]

If one recalls the alien module 4 Zhodani the entry in the Consular Guard is tough... Entry is 14+ with Dm's from Stren 7+ and Psi 9+, and of course Social 10+ . So I think that the physical requirements across the board are present. And one has to take into consideration that the development of fighting men involves physical conditioning. From RL experience the 'sweat saves blood' lived it. So the CG physical prowess shouldn't even be an issue of comparison.

Here is were I am going to interject some RL experience. If your unit mission template is an elite light infantry one : raids, snatches, etc... as the Zhodani Commandos then the troops need to be up to the task physically and skills proficiency. So they are Elite. (Sua Sponte for those who can figure it out)

Well, as I begain my post, it depends on what to you understand as elite...

Some countries' elite units will not be seen as elite by others, and elite is not only a matter of training, but also a matter of sprit de corps and commitement, and under this standard they surely are.

I'm sure to have read somewhere (but I cannot find the exact reference) that the Zhodani CG commandos are chosen exclusively (or nearly so) for their teleport capacity, so not being the classical Solomani commando (highly fit and trained). I guess the recruit pool under this prerequisite (PSI 9+ and teleport) is low enough as to be too picky in other prerequisites.

To further interject an elite CG Unit with First Fire is so OP in FFW ... could you imagine the one of the Two CG mech Divisions Elite x2, Armored x2? ( can you stack this?) and 'first fire' yeah it would upset the game somewhat.

Well, those units would be worth 80 battalions in combat, less than the CG corps, that is worth 100 factors, and I don't believe they will upset the game in any way. And in any case, those armored units are (IMHO) the less likely to represent their commandos (that are by definition light troops). But will you be surprised if (at least) the two CG jump divisons would have been marked as elite?

This argument brings back the nostalgia of Paratroopers vs. Marines who would win... easy answer who ever shoots first and hits.

The only thing I'm sure about this is that any of them can beat me without even sweating, so, as I don't want to upset any of them, I won't give any oppinion here

 

[McPerth]

it can be intercepted by another telepath... kind of... by reading the mind of the sender or recipient.

They would need to know where they are, probably to see them, and, off course, to overcome their shields (after all, we're talking about telepaths).

A military operation puts out a lot of Com Traffic just as a matter of course, a lot more than can be fueled by Teeps on Doubble, and that's just in a few minuets, then what about Data, try sending a .map file over the Psi Net.

I said that at higher level they sure use other communication systems (so the comm specialists you talk about), just that I'm not sure they are not using other army units communication nets for it.

And about sending map files telepathically, don't they send the images of a location with enough detail as to allow others to teleport there?

for Robots, don't need to be able to Flick to fit a pisionic switch, just need a few pisionics in a combo Command/Tester role at section or platoon level.

Sure robot maintenance can be done without prionic flicking, and even their opperations (though probably in an inefficient way, as they are built to be directed by flicking), but maintenance will be handled by rear echelon units, and they may or may not be CG people.

The GURPS book on the Joes had a good look at the Guard and Guard Commandos, even giving TO&E tables.

I don't own (not have put my eyes on) any GT book, so, I thrust your Word on it, but, if I'm not wrong, they are not considered canon

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Well, as I begain my post, it depends on what to you understand as elite...

Some countries' elite units will not be seen as elite by others, and elite is not only a matter of training, but also a matter of sprit de corps and commitement, and under this standard they surely are.

I'm sure to have read somewhere (but I cannot find the exact reference) that the Zhodani CG commandos are chosen exclusively (or nearly so) for their teleport capacity, so not being the classical Solomani commando (highly fit and trained). I guess the recruit pool under this prerequisite (PSI 9+ and teleport) is low enough as to be too picky in other prerequisites.



Well, those units would be worth 80 battalions in combat, less than the CG corps, that is worth 100 factors, and I don't believe they will upset the game in any way. And in any case, those armored units are (IMHO) the less likely to represent their commandos (that are by definition light troops). But will you be surprised if (at least) the two CG jump divisons would have been marked as elite?



The only thing I'm sure about this is that any of them can beat me without even sweating, so, as I don't want to upset any of them, I won't give any oppinion here

McPerth I think we need to concede the CG are a very carefully husbanded resource... not to be expended lightly... hence they replace and replenish like a regular line unit, by the virtue of the special capabilities. I do believe they are politically indoctrinated (as the Waffen-SS or NKVD, KGB Troops or the Pasdran [ Iranian Revolutionary Guard]).

Also I have RL experience in elite units... I assure you the would Zhodani Commandos are very well trained for their missions, the training/skill set has to ensure the success of the mission. they just have a unique method of insertion. certainly up to snuff with other commando forces. the straight CG lift infantry is surely just as well trained as their imperial or Solomon counterparts as well.

for reference I have also worked very closely with NATO/Oceanic SOF so the ability to compare and contrast various tier one or tier two forces comes rather naturally. Some countries SOF really matured and gained operational experience in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some came to the party very well trained and just need to be blooded.

All in all I still think the CG will over match the Imperial Marines by virtue of the unique skill set they bring to he table. But once spent... it takes forever to refit the units...The Imperial Marines have that distinct advantage over the CG.

 

[Sir Brad]

If you're looking for a 100% canon CT look at the Joe Guards, go back to JTAS #11 26-32 Zhodani Military Organization by Frank Chadwik & Loren Wiseman.

it looks at the minor differences between Army and Guard and the substantial differences between both and the Guard Commandos.

 

[jec10]

Page 28, JTAS #11 "Zhodani Military Organisation" by Frank Chadwick:
"Zhodani commandos accomplish this [insertion] by psionic teleportation, and recruits for commando units are chosen solely on the basis of their talent in this field. Thus Zhodani commandos do not occupy the role of elite combat troops, unlike most other armies".

 

[Sir Brad]

If you look at 3I Marines they favor a Lift Infantry doctrine, the Joe Guards also use Lift Infantry doctrine, but have a an Armor component organic to the units. Guard Commandos are Lift Infantry reliant on their T-Port capable troops that precludes the use of more support elements and Armor.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Page 28, JTAS #11 "Zhodani Military Organisation" by Frank Chadwick:
"Zhodani commandos accomplish this [insertion] by psionic teleportation, and recruits for commando units are chosen solely on the basis of their talent in this field. Thus Zhodani commandos do not occupy the role of elite combat troops, unlike most other armies".

Sigh... do you send an artilleryman to do a infantryman's job or vice versa? Frank may have said such... but realistically the Zho's would lose the the "commandos" almost wholesale if they were not trained to perform the mission. The article goes on to describe a mission profile that is almost similar to any elite light infantry unit template. The words "commando operations", "behind enemy lines", "Long-range penetration", "ambushes"... are used the operational employment of these troops suggests that the skills in the CT 'Commando school' would be most useful. I suggest some reflection on Ranger, Commando, Chindit operations.

The author may have said one thing, but he designed light infantry force that performs a very high risk mission template, with a unique insertion method.

 

[Condottiere]

The obvious thing about teleportation is fourth dimensional insertion in a previously secured area, or if the area is constantly monitored, surprise attack.

 

[McPerth]

McPerth I think we need to concede the CG are a very carefully husbanded resource... not to be expended lightly... hence they replace and replenish like a regular line unit, by the virtue of the special capabilities. I do believe they are politically indoctrinated (as the Waffen-SS or NKVD, KGB Troops or the Pasdran [ Iranian Revolutionary Guard])..

All troops are politically indoctrinated, to higher or lesser degree, and special forces more so. And Zhodani troops, Zohodani being masters of psicology (not only psionicology) are sure all of them highly motivated (as much as most profesional of elite RW forces).

See that Zhodiani view of the Imperium is as untrustworthy people that you don't want near home, so they have a natural trend to this motivation (even civilians), as the Imperials have about those "mind-flyers" over the border, so indoctrination in this case (in both sides) is quite easy.

Also I have RL experience in elite units... I assure you the would Zhodani Commandos are very well trained for their missions, the training/skill set has to ensure the success of the mission. they just have a unique method of insertion. certainly up to snuff with other commando forces. the straight CG lift infantry is surely just as well trained as their imperial or Solomon counterparts as well.

for reference I have also worked very closely with NATO/Oceanic SOF so the ability to compare and contrast various tier one or tier two forces comes rather naturally. Some countries SOF really matured and gained operational experience in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some came to the party very well trained and just need to be blooded.

All in all I still think the CG will over match the Imperial Marines by virtue of the unique skill set they bring to he table. But once spent... it takes forever to refit the units...The Imperial Marines have that distinct advantage over the CG.

Sure CG units (not only commandos) are all well trained. In MT (IIRC Rebellion Sourcebook) they are described as well trained, well equiped and superbly led.

Even so, the entry in CG commandos is only on the basis of this rare talent, training being given after. It has nothing to do with going through the Commando School (where you can receive a lot of skills), as in the case of the Imperial Marines.

See that the Zhodani may have also other comando forces, more "conventional", so to say, that could fill the niche you tell about.

I guess the view the Zhodani have about comandos is quite different to Imperial, and to ours.

Sigh... do you send an artilleryman to do a infantryman's job or vice versa?

It has been done. I remember some NATO vs WP game telling that the fact British non-infantry patroled the Ulster as infantry was aginst their training, but also that this was overcome by the experience it gave them.

But could you send a non-teleporter (no matter how well trained) to do a teleporter's job?

Teleport with equipment (so PSR 9+) is rare enough as to be too picky with other prerequisites for recruits, unlike other comando forces, that are quite so. Training comes latter, but, as some of them may not be the most fit men for the job, they would not match most elite foreign comandos man to man, if not for the psionics.

Frank may have said such... but realistically the Zho's would lose the the "commandos" almost wholesale if they were not trained to perform the mission. The article goes on to describe a mission profile that is almost similar to any elite light infantry unit template. The words "commando operations", "behind enemy lines", "Long-range penetration", "ambushes"... are used the operational employment of these troops suggests that the skills in the CT 'Commando school' would be most useful. I suggest some reflection on Ranger, Commando, Chindit operations. .

But, as I already said, they are not all trained in the Commando School, and I guess the world "comando" is used as reference, but Zhodani view of them is not the same of ours.

Off course they perform "comando operations", but in a different way. They perform their hit-and-run raids by means of teleporting, and they infliltrate behind enemy lines to create chaos, not by the prowess of their training, but for their unique skills.

Just the troops they tie far from the front lines to avoid their actions are worth their use, without having to risk them too much in what we see as SF opperations too often.

AFAIK (you sure know more about it than me) the most dangerous part of SF opperations, and the ones that require more training, are infiltration and retreival, that is what the CG comandos do better.

The author may have said one thing, but he designed light infantry force that performs a very high risk mission template, with a unique insertion method.

In this sense, I guess they could be seen more as the German Brandemburgers in WWII, chosen exclusively (or nearly so) due to their skill in foreign languages to create confusion, more than havoc, behind the enemy lines and to collect intelligence.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

In this sense, I guess they could be seen more as the German Brandemburgers in WWII, chosen exclusively (or nearly so) due to their skill in foreign languages to create confusion, more than havoc, behind the enemy lines and to collect intelligence.

I am glad to see someone bring up the The Brandenburgers. I see the Zho Commandos as more of a 'Chindit/ 75th Rangers /British Marine Commando/Rhodesian Light infantry'.

there is a distinct difference between Special operations Light Infantry and Special forces.. The Brandenburgers began as SF and became ( not part due to the flirtations with the 20 July plot elite infantry... later a PZ Gren Div).

I agree that the initial hoop to jump through is the 9+ Psi and teleportation. however the skill set needed to execute the mission following insertion ... make them elite.