Originally posted by TheDS:
A couple thoughts I had while reading this MASSIVE post:
1) Getting something up to a fraction of light is not easy. Sure, there's the requisite month or twenty of time to get something going that fast, but what are the obstacles, really?
1a) Fuel. By far and away, this is the most major obstacle. Any reaction drive cannot carry enough fuel to reach .7c, not even a fusion rocket. You're thinking Bussard Ramjet now, aren't you? Unfortunately for the real world, it looks like this theory isn't going to hold water. The density of free hydrogen in our area, for instance, is less than the nominal 1 hydrogen atom per cubic cm thought to be necessary. The magnetic fields required are beyond anything that we know of that can make something large enough (and it's got to be a lot larger, since there's less hydrogen). But to top it off, hydrogen is electrically NEUTRAL, so how are you going to gather it?
Bussard Ramjets are an old idea, which once was thought to be practical, but which are now largely acknowledged as being unworkable because there is no way
practical to generate a large enough magnetic field (that we know of) to scoop up enough interstellar hydrogen to do the job.
As for there being insufficient fuel aboard ship, I believe the ISK vessel proposal made further up-thread describes all it needs, both drives and fuel, to reach the appropriate velocity.
.7c may be a very high velocity, and interstellar dust/microscopic-particles may be a problem (as I found while researching theories of high-c travel as estimated/envisioned by heavy-hitter futurists), but that .7c might not be fast enough to cause particles to damage the OTU "bonded superdense" armor available at high TLs (not knowing what this armor can do, it's hard to make statements related to it). Now, at .9c or most definitely .99c, microscopic-particle (even as small as individual molecules when reaching .99c or higher; as energy really starts to climb as more 9s are added past the decimal point) impacts would begin to be each as serious as large nuclear weapons. But not, apparently, at .7c, which is why I never really raised that issue.
Originally posted by TheDS:
1b) Maybe you think you can overcome the fuel thing by using Thruster Plates or something. I for one can see these things having a top-speed, and it's not likely to be a really high one either. But maybe this can be done anyway IYTU.
Yes, the ISK vessel ran on Thruster Plates. It worked out quite nicely, I believe. The forward thrust generated by the Thruster Plates would only reach relativistic limits at speeds well over .7c (serious relativistic build-up happens after .9c, and the vast amount of relativistic energy build-up occurs at over .99c). Up until relativistic limits, there is no OTU reason why Thruster Plates couldn't drive a vessel to fairly high c-speed numbers.
As a GM, you could be free to set whatever limit you like, of course, IYTU. Me, I wound up thinking of fractional-c weaponry as the ultimate planet killer weapons of the TU (at least as far as planetary surfaces go, anyway). Ownership and operation of them fall under same ban as nuclear weapons by the Imperial Rules of War (although it could be difficult to tell on a well disguised ISK-type vessel), and could easily result in a Treason charge that local intelligence forces would only wait for local command (Subsector or, at most, Sector) confirmation for kill-immediately-orders, and so playing around with such disguised ISK or similar fractional-c weaponry could be lethal if it came to light by counter-intelligence investigation. Other major interstellar states feel the same way. Minor interstellar states are, of course, capable of deploying simple ISK weapons, but the retaliation for using them is usually the same but only on a much larger scale, and so usually its the odd terrorist group here or there that attempts their use, and while devastating, its fairly rare (IMTU).
Originally posted by TheDS:
1c) Hellish radiation and Space dust. Robots may get around the radiation problem, but maybe you're just going to screw up your electronic components faster than normal. Your chances to hit some little fleck of space garbage, after 100,000 years of sentient industrialization, are not as tiny as we might like them to be either. Shielding against that kind of stuff is not going to be light, requiring MORE fuel to overcome it.
I covered my thoughts on the space-dust problem above. However, I wanted to mention that OTU Charted Space has not been inhabited by space-going civilizations for 100,000 years. More like, at the most, in the case of the Vilani, what, 10,000 years (can't find my Vilani & Vargr at the moment, hmmm, Donald McKinney's website has a timeline . . . lookup, lookup); okay, the Vilani started J-1 travel at -9235, so just a little over 10,000 years ago. But that's not the same as saying each individual star system has 100,000 years of "sentient industrialization".
Originally posted by TheDS:
2) There is no Offense which is incapable of being stopped, given enough time and resources. There is no Defense which cannot be cracked, given enough time and resources. Of course, doing all this WITHOUT killing everyone you're trying to capture/defend is the trouble, isn't it?
I believe I proposed a number of possible defenses. A combination of counter fractional-c weaponry with launch-assist systems, and outlandishly, black-globe equipped automated blocker vessels, both operating in concert with a large Oort Cloud sensor net (which, IMTU, is a concept called Oort-Net, now; a development of my discussions in this thread), which has varying degrees of sensitivity depending on how extensive/large it is.
However, most of these require massive effort on the part of the defenders against very little cost on the part of the attackers. The no-jump drive ISK vessels, not too expensive, launched from vast stand-off ranges, in quantity, would, in my mind, no doubt be quite difficult to stop.
Although I personally feel that no activity large enough to mount drives on an extremely large (kilometers or tens of kilometers diameter) Oort-Cloud object would escape detection from Oort-Net scanning, in the event that such did occur (mistakes always happen, and no Oort-Net or the people who maintain it can be perfect at all times), there is very little a target planet could do to stop it once it was inbound at high velocity. The mass involved . . . it would just be too much. Of course, there wouldn't be anything left of the defenders, either (ick . . . I hope no one wanted to, say, conquer and hold a freshly-impacted world because it might be, like, valuable to the attackers . . .).
Originally posted by TheDS:
3) You don't build defenses for centuries, even on the front lines. If you did, Europe would be 20 feet deep in castles and walls and fortresses. Those things cost money to build and maintain, and you also have to replace them with new and improved stuff. You don't leave the old stuff there. It's not like it's going to be effective. How much damage does a cannon do in comparison to a 16" gun?
My main and original statement concerned a few "can't be lost" star systems. In the Imperium, I specifically mentioned Depots (I personally feel this way about most of them, but that's only, what, 19 star systems?), and I can conceive that High-Pop, High-Tech (12-15) worlds as having sufficient wealth to deploy some serious defenses based on the general paranoia and self-survival/cowardice of the politicians/rulers of such worlds (yes, I have a dim view of politicians), though those defenses would exist without Meson technology or black globes, as in the OTU meson guns are restricted by the Rules of War, and IMTU, so are black globes (and I feel most of the other major interstellar states feel the same way, at least, about Meson Guns).
Originally posted by TheDS:
And if static defenses are so great, why aren't all countries today doing their utmost to reinforce every square km of land they have? I can't tell you how annoying it is to have to see all those fortifications all around Chicago, protecting us from those evil Canadians who are plotting their invasion as we speak.
Yeah, that's right, you don't put up a lot of stuff in your rear areas. You put it in your forward areas, where you expect the enemy to be. You might make it deep, like several parsecs in from a rough border, but deeper than that is going to be pretty soft. Where's the benefit of spending obscene amounts of money protecting something that isn't going to be attacked? Anti-piracy is one thing, but that's why we have equivalent of police forces. Georgia doesn't worry about South Carolina invading it.
The heavy defenses are going to be about 10 deep-sites, maybe 20. Subs are good anti-spacecraft platforms, as are fighters and missiles. Subs stay hidden until the ground troops start raining, and then they make it hard on them.
Superheavy defenses, like at depots... Don't they have a whole solar system chock full of battleships and stuff? Mobile stuff is better anyway, because if you're losing the battle, you can take it with you and still use it.
Well, most of the time, Depots do have large reserves of Imperial Fleets sitting around waiting for a call to the front lines (which, IMTU, at least, rarely have much in the way of fixed defenses, as a heavy and concentrated surprise attack would likely have sufficient vessels to brush aside the one, or at most two squadrons defending the local Subsector, and the ground defenses necessary to do more than ward off a few pirate vessels would be too expensive to deploy along the whole border), at least in the case of Depot/Corridor around, what was it, 1116 or 1117 (hmmm, Don M's timeline doesn't note the date) when Lucan called on the Depot/Corridor reserve to come and aid the fight against Dulinor? Depot/Corridor had no serious fleet after that, and the Vargr fleets swooped in, and took Depot/Corridor in the OTU. Given the ships the Rebellion Sourcebook notes the Vargr as having, I think the fixed defenses (strict OTU design sequence weapons only, no fractional-c weapons allowed for consideration) that would have been emplaced there would have toasted the Vargr. This is my IMTU-prejudice, and need not extend to anyone else. I just always liked the idea, most especially, of a single lone beacon of Imperial Civilization in the middle of a sea of Vargr occupied worlds. (Yes, I'm a big Imperium-booster.)
Originally posted by TheDS:
So there are no 3000 year old deep-meson sites still in operation. I doubt there's even a wall or an enemy that old.
I never mentioned anything about a 3000 year timeframe. I believe most of my estimates were, at the most, 200-600 years, dating back to the time of the Imperial First Civil War. Most of the Imperium's territory at 1100 pretty much resembles (I said resembles, I did not say matches exactly) the borders at around 600; check out the Spinward Marches borders before the First Frontier and the borders after the Fifth Frontier war. What are we talking about? 10-20 parsecs of border shifting. Corridor now and then wasn't much different, either. The Solomani border came into existence 704, and then shifted to its present state 1002. Although I haven't seen century by century changes elsewhere, overall, I believe, they really haven't changed that much since 600.
My idea for deep-meson sites comes from the Imperial Palace internal meson guns, each one mounted in a sphere, capable of being rotated in any direction. The cross-section view of the Imperial Palace makes it look like there could be 8-12 of them inside the palace. And while, for security concerns, the Emperor would reasonably want some major league weapons within his direct reach, in most other locations, deep sub-surface sites would be far more suitable. The Imperial Palace was finished in 633, and so deep-meson gun sites are a well-known system from that time on. And yes, I know the Imperial Palace and its cross-section views and historical details were DGP sources, but I like them, and they are OTU as far as I'm concerned until something else that is
better comes along.
Originally posted by TheDS:
4) There is no 4. It's all in your mind.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
, the discussion was on the pre-MT/TNE timeline. My interpretation of TNE material is that the various Rebellion factions and Virus had an electronic hand in the use of nucs.
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