Jump capable ships less than 100 tons

[Blue Ghost]

Jump capable ships less than 100 tons;

I was monkeying with the T5 proposed ship building rules, and, other than the ruling about 100 ton limits, I was wondering what the feasibility was of small jump capable vessels.

Admittedly I couldn't get my design to work, but, what are the odds that some high-tech levle laboratory in the Imperium isn't experimenting with technology.

Your thoughts.

 

[Greylond]

I think it'd be easier to go with a small version of a Battle Rider. Start with a 100 ton Hull and carry 2 to 4 smaller ships. Kinda a Battle Rider for Fighters.

 

[atpollard]

I always favored making the Jump Drive for a 100 dTon ship be the smallest size that a Jump Drive can be made and letting people design sub-100 dTon starships to their hearts content.



As a legal cheat of the rules:

The Pufferfish Class
1. Design a 100 dTon starship with cargo drop tanks (representing the unwanted tonnage).
2. Discard the drop tanks.
3. replace the drop tanks with empty fuel bladders

Operate as a sub-100 dton ship until ready to jump, inflate the bladders (with surplus hydrogen gas) to increase the tonnage to 100 dT, and jump away.

Upon arrival, pump the gas back to the internal fuel tanks to deflate the bladders, and operate as a sub-100 dton ship.

 

[Greylond]

Interesting concept...

EDIT: "Interesting" in that this is something my players would try...

 

[Cryton]

I think it'd be easier to go with a small version of a Battle Rider. Start with a 100 ton Hull and carry 2 to 4 smaller ships. Kinda a Battle Rider for Fighters.

So a carrier? :devil:

 

[Greylond]

Guess you could call it a "light carrier."

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, the thing that got me was that if you look at the deck plans of an old Type-S, and give it some width and girth, that is project it's other two dimensions, the thing is as big as a 737, and then some. It's essentially a small corporate park building on landing struts.

The smallest jump capable vessel seems really colossal to me, and I tried projecting backwards the cost/size chart for starship construction, and came across some design barriers in the rules which struck me as maybe being arbitrary for the sake of the rules or setting.

Meh, I think I may write up an article and submit it to JTAS or somebody.

Orrrr....how about this; a jump harness for something like a ship's boat, pinnace, shuttle, or whatever.

 

[atpollard]

Actually, I have a lot of small starship concepts (and not much to do with them) ...

Gemini Class
1. Cut a 100 dton starship in half (50 dT hull, half a jump drive, half a PP, half a MD, half a starship bridge)
2. add a docking system to join two 50 dT small craft together and install half on each 50 dT hull
3. starting with these minimums, design a 50 dT fighter/Torpedo boat.
4. add a program to slave your controls to a co-joined fighter's computer.

When two fighters are attached, they function as a single 100 dT starship with one bridge functioning as the Pilot/maneuver bridge and the other bridge functioning as the Astrogator/jump bridge.

When they separate, each ship functions as a small craft (with a big cockpit), and if things go bad, survivors pair up and jump to safety.

 

[atpollard]

Deuce Coupe Class:

1. Start with a used Type S Scout.
2. Cut away the Jump Fuel tank, most of the bridge, the staterooms and the jump drives ... everything except the minimum needed for a small craft.
3. recalculate performance based on the original maneuver drive size and the new remaining hull size. (fast)
4. install drop tank hardware to the chopped up Type S and reassemble the jump bridge, jump drives, fuel and staterooms into a demountable jump module (like the SDB Jump shuttle).

Take her out and challenge other 2G craft to race for pink slips ... drop the JD module and show them what she's got.

... Damn young hot rodders.

 

[Darkwing]

I interpret the rule as sub-100 ton craft are not economical, and no architect will design such a craft, because you have to pay so much to shrink a jump drive small enough. That leaves it to governments and corporations, and other large entities who can afford to spend an insane amount of money on something that makes no economic sense, but which they do see some advantage in. For example, a 40-ton fast pinnace that has a jump-2. A spy might find it handy for getting around in-system, and appreciate the ability to bug-out if necessary, in a boat nobody expects to be able to jump.
Just use the MT rules, substitute your own %ages, and assume every 10% reduction in mass costs 50-100% more - but only for large enough organizations to do it on their own. Individuals trying this will be paying 100-200% per 10% reduction mass for such designs, because this is totally custom and pretty much individually-designed. Now, if the public finds out it can be done, and it is done often enough, then eventually it will change the standards, and the costs will come down as more folks find uses for it.

 

[Greylond]

Orrrr....how about this; a jump harness for something like a ship's boat, pinnace, shuttle, or whatever.

Expensive unless recoverable, but I think you could do it. MgT has a Civilian Jump Carrier in Merhcants and Crusiers. It is 1,000 tons and can do a Jump 4 with upto 400 tons of ships attached. I guess you could do that on a smaller scale.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Wow, excellent responses.

Darkwing, I'm going to experiment with your proposals tonight. That may just work with the design I was trying to create in the first place. In fact, I'm pretty sure it will.

Thanks guys.

 

[DaveChase]

Actually, I have a lot of small starship concepts (and not much to do with them) ...

Gemini Class
1. Cut a 100 dton starship in half (50 dT hull, half a jump drive, half a PP, half a MD, half a starship bridge)
2. add a docking system to join two 50 dT small craft together and install half on each 50 dT hull
3. starting with these minimums, design a 50 dT fighter/Torpedo boat.
4. add a program to slave your controls to a co-joined fighter's computer.

When two fighters are attached, they function as a single 100 dT starship with one bridge functioning as the Pilot/maneuver bridge and the other bridge functioning as the Astrogator/jump bridge.

When they separate, each ship functions as a small craft (with a big cockpit), and if things go bad, survivors pair up and jump to safety.

Sounds a bit like Obi-Wan Kenobi's Delta-7 Aethersprite-class light interceptor using a hyperdrive docking ring for FTL since the figther didn't have it's own.

Dave Chase

 

[atpollard]

Sounds a bit like Obi-Wan Kenobi's Delta-7 Aethersprite-class light interceptor using a hyperdrive docking ring for FTL since the figther didn't have it's own.

Dave Chase

I was actually inspired by some thoughts about how to cut up a scout into smaller ships. Cutting it right down the middle seemed like one of them.

Replacing the ore bays on a prospector with balloons was another.

Chopping it up like a hot rod seemed a third.

[PS: I really liked the small craft docks with a jump ring concept ... I even started some plans for a design that I may finish some day.]

 

[Whipsnade]

IMTU the 100dTon minimum requirement is all about establishing a "dimensional anchor" during jump. How you achieve the 100dTon minimum requirement, with a single hull or multiple docked components, isn't important but reaching the 100dTon minimum requirement is important if you want a safe controllable jump.

IMTU jump consists of a bubble containing a piece of our dimension transiting a portion of a jump dimension. That bubble needs a certain amount of mass or density or "heft" or whatever from our dimension within it in order to have a jump in which direction and distance can be controlled. You can enter jump below 100dTons, you just can't control where you'll exit.

Using Walt Smith's excellent Kawzan Industries Jump Pod as an example here. You can jump using just the frame without one of the 20dTon pods attached, you just can't control that jump.

It's a cop out and it's fairly arbitrary, but it worked for me.

 

[atpollard]

Kudos to Walt Smith. That was a great desIgn.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Interesting design.

Personally I like Darkwing's explanation the best, because it justifies how smaller jump capable craft aren't that feasible unless you're willing to pay for the cost of the thing. That, as opposed to an arbitrary limit imposed by the rules for the sake of grounding the game; i.e. prevent someone from making a "jump belt" or "jump battle dress" for a company of mercenaries. Such devices may actually be deep in the experimental cores of heavily guarded secret labs, but they are outrageously expsensive, are prototypes that have no replacement parts or copies of anykind; maybe can only be worn by the man who is designated to operate the thing (Gordon Freeman's HEV suit in Half Life as an example), or in some other way is keyed, guarded, hidden, or is just plain inaccessible to even the most determined players.

It opens up new frontiers for this game, and maybe even other systems. I think GURPS has a similar take on their vehicle construction rules set, though I'm not a big GURPS guy and can't recall rightly.

Some great concepts and suggestions here.

 

[Whipsnade]

Kudos to Walt Smith. That was a great design.

It's just one of many there. It's well worth spending time at Walt's site.

Interesting design.

Check out the Sextant-class lab ship.

Personally I like Darkwing's explanation the best, because it justifies how smaller jump capable craft aren't that feasible unless you're willing to pay for the cost of the thing.

An economics based limit doesn't cut it for me because there are going to be situations in which economics don't matter. People are going to want jump torpedoes, for example, and they're going to want them enough to eat the cost.

I very much like the idea of a sub-100dTon jump capability and I'd put it in any non-OTU setting in a heartbeat. For an OTU or OTU-ish setting however such a capability doesn't fit.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I remember the jump torpedo debate some years back. I lurked on that thread, but never put in my two bits. Did anything ever come of the intense discussion that was had?

I remember when I picked up Car Wars again after a hiatus of several years, I kept getting taken out driving lightly armed and armored cars. I then designed an unlimited class van with a Thundercat power plant and two linked heavy lasers mounted forward. The thing cost a bundle, but the only limit was the amount of space I could dedicated to the weapons and weight the chassis could sustain. But it fell within the rules.

Traveller's 100 ton size limit, on the other hand, has always made me wonder some. Just me.

 

[Whipsnade]

I remember the jump torpedo debate some years back. I lurked on that thread, but never put in my two bits. Did anything ever come of the intense discussion that was had?

Jump torpedoes are canon. They're mentioned in A:4 Leviathan and the missiles Special Supplement. The trouble is that they're not mentioned every again despite their obvious utility. Why build 100dTon X-boats, for example, if jump torps can do the job? While TNE comes close there are no design rules them either, again despite their obvious utility.

Canon, especially early canon, has several such imponderables. The Library Data entry about Capital, not Sylea, "controlling the only crossing in the Rift for thousands of parsecs" in another. The only thing to do is label them apocrypha and move on.

Traveller's 100 ton size limit, on the other hand, has always made me wonder some. Just me.

You weren't the only one who wondered. We've all come up with various excuses to explain it to our own various satisfactions. The 100dTon limit is part of the OTU but it needn't be part of anyone's personal TU.