Long Distance Trade

[Condottiere]

1. It's a big galaxy, and I doubt one size will be meant to fit all.

2. One consideration might be collapsible, considering current shipping situation.

3. My gut feeling says right angles are going to be preferred, internally.

4. Externally, because I've been looking at hexagonal hull configuration, for add-ons, six sided is a possibility.

5. Speaking of collapsible, economies might be realized if all four sides are exactly the same, with two sets of doors.

6. Construction costs will likely be dependent on material and configuration.

7. Basis would be steel upto bonded superdense, but then you could add in corrosion proof, vacuum proof, temperature controlled, life support, armoured or maybe bulkhead reinforced.

8. If there some form of superlight aluminum alloy, that might be preferred for dirtside.

 

[whartung]

You are thinking strictly in terms of volume, not mass. When I think cargo, I think mass first, then the amount of space occupied by a long ton of 2240 pounds, slightly larger than a metric ton of 2205 pounds.

That's too bad because while mass is certainly a factor (I don't think you can actually ship a container filled with lead), volume is the dominant factor when it comes to shipping availability, even today.

You can't put anything on a plane without weighing it. Container ships have a maximum weight and draft load. Trucks and roads are also limited by weight.

That said, most of these fill up on volume first. Most are designed to optimize volume. Volume is the primary constraint as density is usually not the primary issue.

 

[mike wightman]

CT LBB2 trade chapter makes it explicit that 1 ton of cargo has a mass of 1000kg:

When determining the contents of a cargo, the players and referee must be
certain to correlate the established price of goods with the cost per ton. For example,
the base price of a shotgun is Cr150, while a ton of firearms as trade goods
has a base price of Cr30,OOO. A strict weight extension of the shotgun (3.75 kg per
shotgun) would indicate 266 shotguns. Extension should be instead based on
price, with weight as a limiting factor. Thus one ton of shotguns would contain 200
guns, at Cr150 each. The extra weight can be considered packing and crates. Similar
calculations should be made to keep prices in line on other trade goods.

 

[willtron3030]

I'm beginning to get the feel watching this discussion that at the ACS level, all cargoes are more or less breakbulk (and I'm counting TEU/FEU shipping containers and their ilk in that), all fanning out from large ports of call on the most massive trade routes that join hi-pop Agricultural and Industrial
core systems.

Along those 'major' routes, most shipping is serviced by FCS sized freight haulers. Major ports will have orbital marshalling yards, specialized craft for loading and unloading the big ships, and entire classes of craft for drayage of all sizes of cargo to the surface and to orbital industry sites. Obviously, the smaller free-traders and subbies can do that for themselves.

• Ag or In world fill huge "cans" with agricultural bulk foods, processed foods, ore or processed raw materials, or palletized machinery.[1]
• Large craft with G-drives lift one or more cans per trip to an orbital marshalling yard, and take incoming cans down to the surface.
• Multiple cans are loaded on an FCS freighter (a dispersed structure ship).
• Some of the cans contain assorted breakbulk cargoes dropped off by smaller freighters and assembled for a common destination, or for distribution on ACS ships from the major port destination.
• The freighter jumps, and cans for that destination are unloaded. More cans put on.
• Rinse, repeat.

[1] I see other uses for large freight container spaces. One or more can spaces on a freighter may be big enough to haul SDBs or large ship components to distant shipyards. Cans may be entirely self-contained habitats with staff/pax, power, environmental and gravity controls, and support vehicles. And there are soooo many good and bad reasons to be shipping sophonts around like bulk cargo: colonial bootstrap module (machine shop, hospital, livestock/seed in stasis), temporary diplomatic quarters for hostile environments, shippable vacation mansions, Uni "semester in space", etc.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I'm beginning to get the feel watching this discussion that at the ACS level, all cargoes are more or less breakbulk (and I'm counting TEU/FEU shipping containers and their ilk in that), all fanning out from large ports of call on the most massive trade routes that join hi-pop Agricultural and Industrial
core systems.

Along those 'major' routes, most shipping is serviced by FCS sized freight haulers. Major ports will have orbital marshalling yards, specialized craft for loading and unloading the big ships, and entire classes of craft for drayage of all sizes of cargo to the surface and to orbital industry sites. Obviously, the smaller free-traders and subbies can do that for themselves.

• Ag or In world fill huge "cans" with agricultural bulk foods, processed foods, ore or processed raw materials, or palletized machinery.[1]
• Large craft with G-drives lift one or more cans per trip to an orbital marshalling yard, and take incoming cans down to the surface.
• Multiple cans are loaded on an FCS freighter (a dispersed structure ship).
• Some of the cans contain assorted breakbulk cargoes dropped off by smaller freighters for a common destination.
• The freighter jumps, and cans for that destination are unloaded. More cans put on.
• Rinse, repeat.

[1] I see other uses for large freight container spaces. One or more can spaces on a freighter may be big enough to haul SDBs or large ship components to distant shipyards. Cans may be entirely self-contained habitats with staff/pax, power, environmental and gravity controls, and support vehicles. And there are soooo many good and bad reasons to be shipping sophonts around like bulk cargo: colonial bootstrap module (machine shop, hospital, livestock/seed in stasis), temporary diplomatic quarters for hostile environments, shippable vacation mansions, Uni "semester in space", etc.

I see those large modular bulk-cargo ships as potential battlerider tenders.

Perfectly innocent megafreighters. Totally defensive SDBs and system-defense non-starships. No threat at all -- for now.

 

[willtron3030]

I see those large modular bulk-cargo ships as potential battlerider tenders.

Perfectly innocent megafreighters. Totally defensive SDBs and system-defense non-starships. No threat at all -- for now.

*cough* Imperiallines *cough*

Although I don't feel like the freighters would have the fixtures and facilities to do rapid combat deployments... unless those were also modular can-sized units. That gives options to mobilize merchant fleets of core trade worlds to a war footing as auxiliaries.

 

[aramis]

That's too bad because while mass is certainly a factor (I don't think you can actually ship a container filled with lead), volume is the dominant factor when it comes to shipping availability, even today.

You can't put anything on a plane without weighing it. Container ships have a maximum weight and draft load. Trucks and roads are also limited by weight.

That said, most of these fill up on volume first. Most are designed to optimize volume. Volume is the primary constraint as density is usually not the primary issue.

TTNE has a 10 Mg per 14 kl mass cap for acceleration purposes; it's a safe bet that it's the same assumed rate at cargo. Which, by the way, is not too far off from modern naval ships.

Looking at the liberty ships data...
Total enclosed volumes are about 1.5x the max displacement, given the naval mass ton of 2240 lb (1016 kg) and 100 CuFt enclosed volume.
The max displacement is the maximum total mass...

Given that the TTNE Traveller ton is about 494.405 CuFt and that would be 4.94405×1016kg = 5.0231548 Mg

Thus gross tonnage and cargo mass tonnage... the 10:1 of TTNE is generous

 

[Enoki]

This is the trade part of the house rules economic measuring system I made:
(EV = Economic Value from 0 to 10)

The second place this can be used, is in determining general cargo available for small ships, of the sort players usually are using in a game. This system is ONLY for cargo. IT doesn’t cover speculative trade, or other items beyond basic cargo availability. The system for that is as follows:

If the system you are in and the system you are going to has an EV >= 5 there is sufficient cargo to fill to the ship’s capacity.
If the system you are in or are going to has an EV < 5 then the following formula is used:
(EV current system * (1 / (EV current system – EV system to go to))) * 2D6 = tons of cargo available.
Cargo available is always rounded up to the next ton.
Example: The system you are in has an EV of 5.23. The system you want to go to has an EV of 2.41. The formula filled out is:
(5.23 * (1/(5.23 -2.41))) * 2D6
Or
1.85 * 2D6
You roll a 7. That means you have 12.95, or 13 tons of cargo available.

If the above calculation results in a value <= 0 then, you may opt to use the following formula:
The above result + (EV current system) * 2D6 = tons of cargo available.
Example: The system you are in has an EV of 2.52. The system you are going to has an EV of 4.83. This gives:
(2.52 * (1/(2.52-4.83))) * 2D6
Or
-1.09 * 2D6
You roll a 4. That means there is negative 4.36 tons of cargo. So, you use the second formula:
2.52 * 2D6
You roll a 9 this time. This results in:

22.86 – 4.36 = 18.32 tons or 19 tons of cargo available.
This could still result in a negative cargo quantity depending on the rolls. If it is, there is no cargo available.
Within the Third Imperium, amber zones count half, red zones have no cargo. These are optional, per the referee, outside the Third Imperium.

What this system results in is that if you are going to low tech, backwater, worlds with a population of a few thousand, be prepared to find most of the time there is no cargo available regardless of where you’re going next.
If you want reliable cargo, you have to trade between the economically viable worlds in a subsector. You can also reliably expect some cargo going from an economic powerhouse to a backwater world, but probably won’t find much for the return trip.

This system works. It is consistent anywhere you go. Using a spreadsheet makes it simple to use and track a ship’s cargo purchases and sales.

 

[PVernon]

Mike, what is the page number of your quote? Also the edition. Thank you, I have looked for it a few times, I seem to be blind when I search.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Mike, what is the page number of your quote? Also the edition. Thank you, I have looked for it a few times, I seem to be blind when I search.

LBB2.81 p48 ... at the bottom of the page.

 

[mike wightman]

The same quote appears in every CT edition; page 43 of 77 edition LBB2, page 104 The Traveller Book, and page 52 Starter Traveller.

In CT a cargo hold ton may have a volume of 14 cubic metres but the mass of the cargo carried is limited to 1000kg per 'ton'.

 

[Condottiere]

I think for spaceships mass has been now ignored, otherwise we'd have to reckon with the weight of the hull.

 

[mike wightman]

The CT 'rule' has long since been overwritten by other editions of the game.

 

[Fovean]

I think for spaceships mass has been now ignored, otherwise we'd have to reckon with the weight of the hull.

As well as empty cargo holds. Ostensibly a ship with no cargo or minimal fuel should have increased acceleration compared to one fully fueled and loaded.

And deckplans - you start to wonder about the density of drives and how many squares a power plant actually takes up.

 

[PVernon]

Thank you Mike.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

The same quote appears in every CT edition; page 43 of 77 edition LBB2, page 104 The Traveller Book, and page 52 Starter Traveller.

In CT a cargo hold ton may have a volume of 14 cubic metres but the mass of the cargo carried is limited to 1000kg per 'ton'.

No bulk cargos.

No liquid water.

Can't hold fuel in your cargo hold!

 

[whartung]

The same quote appears in every CT edition; page 43 of 77 edition LBB2, page 104 The Traveller Book, and page 52 Starter Traveller.

In CT a cargo hold ton may have a volume of 14 cubic metres but the mass of the cargo carried is limited to 1000kg per 'ton'.

Conveniently, liquid hydrogen is 980Kg per dTon.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Yes, we use the displacement ton because it is the unit of measure in the rules. Metric and convenient. By the same token we are using the speculative trade sizes. Are these units appropriate for really large cargoes? :coffeesip: I suggest The cargo sizes RAW are reflective of a LBB small ship (or T5 ACS) speculative trade sizes. The sizes of the cargo may simply be pallet size cargoes, not reflective of the BIG ships

When I think large scale and long distance I'm thinking of the ocean going container ships which carry 1000 or more containers. The largest is the MSC Gülsün which can carry 23,756 containers.

On the chicken/egg front:
Container ships are rated classed by whether than can fit thru the old Panama canal, the newer expansion, or not at all (width and depth). The number of TEU a ship carries therefore determines its dimensions. So ship classes are:
Wont Fit
Ultra Large Container Vessel (ULCV) 14,501 TEU and higher
Expansion
New Panamax (or Neopanamax or VLCS (Very Large Container Ship)) 10,000–14,500 TEU
Post-Panamax 5,101–10,000 TEU
Original Canal
Panamax 3,001–5,100 TEU
Feedermax 2,001–3,000 TEU
Feeder (formerly sneeder ship) 1,001–2,000 TEU
Small feeder ~300 - 1,000 TEU

The VLCS and ULCV can only be accommodated in 50 or so ports on the planet at this time. The three feeder classes what most people think when they think container ships as these also can fit in all sorts of ports.

TEU is the Twenty-foot equivalent unit an imprecise measure because yes everyone's containers are different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_ship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-foot_equivalent_unit

 

[Condottiere]

We could have:

1. Lo(port)max

2. Hi(port)max

 

[Nathan Brazil]

We could have:

1. Lo(port)max

2. Hi(port)max

The implication there could go hand with streamlining. The largest starship frames may just be dispersed structures incapable of landing, with the "containers" being loaded into (or onto) the frame in a manner appropriate to however jump fields work ala T5 or IYTU.