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Men, not Laws

Azezel

SOC-6
The Third Imperium, as the saying goes, is one of men, not laws.

I get that, but when a potential player asked me to explain what that phrase actually means... Well, I admit, I drew a blank. Not blank on what it means, but on how to put it into words.

Without wanting to say 'go read this ten foot stack of thirty-year old books and adventures', or 'play my campaign and you'll see' how does one explain it?


The third Imperium has a socio-political... feeling to it that I love. That subtle melange of Dune and Foundation. How does one sell it in a brief conversation or campaign handout, though?
 
"Of men, not laws" is almost exactly the equivalent of "Deeds, not words."

The important thing is that you do what's right, not necessarily what's lawful; or to put it another way, sometimes in order to do the honorable thing, you have to break the law.
 
A government of men is one where the head of the government is not subject to the law. A monarchy has a government of man; a constitutional monarchy has a government of law.

In the Imperium, the Emperor is the font of all Imperial authority. He can promulgate and change laws as he pleases. So the Imperium is indeed a government of man. Some people take it to mean that Imperial nobles are not subject to law, but that's not true; they are subject to the Emperor's laws.

(Strange; I remember googling 'government of man' some years ago and getting some meaningful links. Today I got a bunch of links to the Isle of Man. :confused:).


Hans
 
My take on "Men, not Laws" is three key elements:

1. The man on the scene does what is right, not what is mandated by law and regulation.
2. the legal standard is "Fair, reasonable and prudent" - with extensive judicial leeway in sentencing.
3. "Just following orders" isn't a mitigation defense, but usually an aggravating factor at trials.

The related corollaries

A. you have a right to address the jury and bench.
B. you have a duty to protect the imperium and its people, even if that means violating the extant regulation
C. No formal constitutions.
D. You can appeal any imperial crime to the subsector or sector dukes. They have the right to read your appeal, and say, "I don't buy it. Enjoy your stay on asteroid x4553."
E. Creative punishments can be imposed.
 
I'd agree with Aramis's take. The Imperium depends on the man on the spot, as long as he acts in the interests of the Imperium, and gets the result, he will be backed up by the powers that be and not constrained by law.


The Imperium is a place of broad principles not detailed laws (except for calender compliance and standards that further trade).


The Imperium is a place where a warrant from the Emperor can set aside regulation and cut red tape.

The Imperium is a place where the following can be written and really empower an individual. No citizen could hope to appeal to any court or authority against such a carte blanche issued from the highest authority.

It is by my order and for the good of the state that the bearer of this has done what he has done.


Authority in the Imperium is not based on laws but on the ability to enforce authority.
 
I'd agree with Aramis's take. The Imperium depends on the man on the spot, as long as he acts in the interests of the Imperium, and gets the result, he will be backed up by the powers that be and not constrained by law.
If the man on the spot happens to have an Imperial warrant given to him by Strephon, sure (As long as he stays within the framework provided by the law governing the use of warrants (Imperial Edict 97), of course :smirk:). But most Imperial nobles don't carry warrants.

"Imperial Warrant: In some select instances, Strephon has been known to exercise his power through agents rather than directly through the bureaucracy of the Imperium. These instances are rare, although there is reason to believe that such agents are more numerous than appears." [The Kinunir, p. 40]​
(Note: This is library data and thus viewpoint writing).

The Imperium is a place of broad principles not detailed laws (except for calender compliance and standards that further trade).

Sounds like a very poorly organized place then. I don't believe it.

The Imperium is a place where the following can be written and really empower an individual.
The text you quote is the fictional carte blanche that Cardinal Richlieu gives to Mylady in The Three Musketeers. The sample warrant quoted in the library data is different, and even then I very much doubt any ruler would be silly enough to actually issue 'to bearer' warrants. An unlimited warrant would seem to be an extremely powerful instrument; not something any ruler would like to be used by someone not intended to wield it. Such warrants would be hedged with elaborate safeguards.


Hans
 
Hans, the fact that anyone would even consider such a possibility demonstrates well the idea that the 3I is "rule of man, not of laws". (And, the search results are hilarious.)
 
Hans, the fact that anyone would even consider such a possibility demonstrates well the idea that the 3I is "rule of man, not of laws".

I actually have an explanation why the sample warrant in the library data is worded as it is, but that's mere fanon, of course. Note, however, that whatever we may suspect about the intent of the writers, nothing in The Kinunir actually says that the warrant in the captain's safe on the Kinunir has the same wording. For all we know, it's a warrant issued to a specific person; it could even be a limited warrant good only for accomplishing a specific task (one accomplished 20 years ago).

(And, the search results are hilarious.)
Who says what now?!?


Hans
 
If the man on the spot happens to have an Imperial warrant given to him by Strephon, sure (As long as he stays within the framework provided by the law governing the use of warrants (Imperial Edict 97), of course :smirk:). But most Imperial nobles don't carry warrants.

I wasn't actually thinking about Imperial Warrants. Consider an Imperial Navy Captain who knows a liner is carrying passengers infected with space plague. He decides that preventing the liner from ever landing and allowing the plague to spread is in the interest of the Imperium. He decides to destroy the liner and all on board. The act is harsh, possibly an over reaction and probably wouldn't go down well with the relatives of the passengers and ship owners. The Imperial view however would be that the Captain has taken appropriate steps to safe guard the Imperium and after a perfunctory court of inquiry the Captain would be back to duty.

Now compare that to the Space Pirate who scuttles the liner he just robbed. That act is against the safety of the space lanes that the Imperium is meant to enforce. The Space Pirate will be subject to the full force of the law.

What I am saying is that in the Imperium justice is not blind. The people in charge may choose to apply the law or to give a "free pass" when the result of an illegal action benefits the Imperium.

Sounds like a very poorly organized place then. I don't believe it.

The OTU has no constitution. The law is based on Imperial edicts and treaties between the Imperium and its member worlds. Traditions such as the Right of Assassination can trump the law. The Imperial Rules of War are an example of the broad principles the Imperium applies to the regulation of conflict. With 11,000 worlds it would be impossible to legislate for every possible legal requirement so the Imperium defines broad rights and responsibilities for its member worlds and sets up its own government to regulate narrow areas of responsibility, such as commerce, improving technology, colonization, information & communication, and high justice.

Its not a poorly organized place, it is a very big and diverse place which requires a lot of personal responsibility and initiative.

The text you quote is the fictional carte blanche that Cardinal Richlieu gives to Mylady in The Three Musketeers. The sample warrant quoted in the library data is different, and even then I very much doubt any ruler would be silly enough to actually issue 'to bearer' warrants. An unlimited warrant would seem to be an extremely powerful instrument; not something any ruler would like to be used by someone not intended to wield it. Such warrants would be hedged with elaborate safeguards.

Well spotted but you misunderstood my intent in using the quote. I said this can be written. There is no limit on Imperial power, the Emperor is sovereign, all power emanates from him. If the emperor chooses to invest part of that power in an individual he can. Edict 97 tells us that everyone is to assist the holder of an Imperial Warrant with all the power they can bring to bear.

The wisdom of Emperors is an unknown quantity. There is nothing to say that an Emperor might issue an unlimited warrant. Even an "unlimited" still comes from the sovereign so the Emperor remains a final arbiter of whether something has been "done for the good of the state". Bearer warrants do appear in Traveller, again the Imperium is a big place, it could take up to a year for the Emperor to identify a named individual on the borders and issue him/her with a warrant. It would be easier to send a bearer warrant with an official who could identify a worthy recipient. Making bearer warrants unlimited is a bad idea, but Emperors are not immune from bad ideas.
 
I wasn't actually thinking about Imperial Warrants. Consider an Imperial Navy Captain who knows a liner is carrying passengers infected with space plague. He decides that preventing the liner from ever landing and allowing the plague to spread is in the interest of the Imperium. He decides to destroy the liner and all on board. The act is harsh, possibly an over reaction and probably wouldn't go down well with the relatives of the passengers and ship owners. The Imperial view however would be that the Captain has taken appropriate steps to safe guard the Imperium and after a perfunctory court of inquiry the Captain would be back to duty.
You're confusing authority with license. An Imperial captain far from any superiors has the authority to decide how to handle a crisis. That doesn't mean he isn't constrained by law. There's the Imperial Code of Military Conduct to begin with. I disagree about the probable reaction of his superiors, but the salient point here is that if they choose, they can bring him before a court-martial. That very act means that he is subject to the law. If he was above the law, he could wave his commission and tell the court of inquiry to go kiss his hand.

Now compare that to the Space Pirate who scuttles the liner he just robbed. That act is against the safety of the space lanes that the Imperium is meant to enforce. The Space Pirate will be subject to the full force of the law.
No, compare that to the Imperial Navy captain who plunders a liner. If the captain truly is above the law, no one can call him to account for such an action.

What I am saying is that in the Imperium justice is not blind. The people in charge may choose to apply the law or to give a "free pass" when the result of an illegal action benefits the Imperium.
But that's entirely different from being above the law. Even in societies with all the constitutional safeguards you could possibly ask for, the executive usually have the power of amnesty. (Which is, incidentally, one of the few powers we have direct canon evidence that dukes have).

Your captain would IMO be found guilty by a court-martial but, due to the unusual circumtances that so richly justified his action[*], with a recommendation of clemency.

[*] Do please note how manfully I've struggled not to quibble about your example. ;)

The OTU has no constitution.

Neither does the UK.

The law is based on Imperial edicts and treaties between the Imperium and its member worlds.

So it is. But there is a law.

Traditions such as the Right of Assassination can trump the law.
By the Classic Era the Right of Assasination had not been invoked for 500 years. It is so much off the books that potential claimants are allowed to carry loaded guns into the Emperor's presence and the half of the bodyguards that weren't in on Dulinor's scheme were taken so much by surprise that not a single one of them managed to get a shot off before being gunned down. And what's more, Dulinor was prepared to bet his life that they would be so surprised that none of them would get off a shot.

The Imperial Rules of War are an example of the broad principles the Imperium applies to the regulation of conflict. With 11,000 worlds it would be impossible to legislate for every possible legal requirement so the Imperium defines broad rights and responsibilities for its member worlds and sets up its own government to regulate narrow areas of responsibility, such as commerce, improving technology, colonization, information & communication, and high justice.
The Imperium has legislation to give its servants broad authority, yes.

Its not a poorly organized place, it is a very big and diverse place which requires a lot of personal responsibility and initiative.
Agreed, but that's not at all the same thing as Imperial officials being above the law.

Well spotted but you misunderstood my intent in using the quote. I said this can be written. There is no limit on Imperial power, the Emperor is sovereign, all power emanates from him. If the emperor chooses to invest part of that power in an individual he can. Edict 97 tells us that everyone is to assist the holder of an Imperial Warrant with all the power they can bring to bear.

When 34 pages, even 34 pages of legalese, are boiled down to one sentence, I think it's a fair assumption that a few nuances would get lost in the process. I think this is what the man on the floor is expected to do when presented with a warrant. I also think that it is the right and duty of Imperial high nobles and high-ranking Imperial officials to prevent the bearers of warrants from abusing them, and that in doing so they would have Imperial laws to guide them.

The wisdom of Emperors is an unknown quantity. There is nothing to say that an Emperor might issue an unlimited warrant. Even an "unlimited" still comes from the sovereign so the Emperor remains a final arbiter of whether something has been "done for the good of the state". Bearer warrants do appear in Traveller, again the Imperium is a big place, it could take up to a year for the Emperor to identify a named individual on the borders and issue him/her with a warrant. It would be easier to send a bearer warrant with an official who could identify a worthy recipient. Making bearer warrants unlimited is a bad idea, but Emperors are not immune from bad ideas.
And said warrant would be made out to bearer but have a blank spot for a name for the official to fill in, being invalid until and unless it was filled out and signed by the official. At least, that's how I think anyone with two brain cells to rub together would do it.


Hans
 
I disagree about the probable reaction of his superiors, but the salient point here is that if they choose, they can bring him before a court-martial.


I think that is the salient point, but not in the way you think.

Whether to court martial the captain in that case very likely would be at the discretion of his superiors. They might decide not to.

That's the sort of feeling that 'men, not laws' is to me. A man (or woman) in authority may, and often must make a call without involving or even consulting any body of law.
 
I think that is the salient point, but not in the way you think.

Whether to court martial the captain in that case very likely would be at the discretion of his superiors. They might decide not to.

That's the sort of feeling that 'men, not laws' is to me. A man (or woman) in authority may, and often must make a call without involving or even consulting any body of law.

Do you know of any country, with or without a constitution, where the executive power does not have the choice of bringing charges or not? I don't.


Hans
 
Neither does the UK.

That's what I had in mind but I was trying to avoid talking politics.


And said warrant would be made out to bearer but have a blank spot for a name for the official to fill in, being invalid until and unless it was filled out and signed by the official. At least, that's how I think anyone with two brain cells to rub together would do it.

I still think the distances and time involved would make bearer warrants useful. What if before the ink is dry the recipient is killed? Back to square one. There are of course alternatives such as making a warrant out to "the office holder" or "the officer commanding" rather than simply "bearer". Still, many weeks from the Emperors office there is an attractiveness to having a bearer warrant held by the highest ranking local official in an "in case of emergency, break glass" format on the understanding that it would only be used in the direst circumstances.

Of course bearer warrants are open to abuse, but this is a game and it needs its MacGuffins.


Do you know of any country, with or without a constitution, where the executive power does not have the choice of bringing charges or not? I don't.

But under a rule of law there would be no choice. Charges would be brought and a sentence carried out. This is where I agree with Azezel, in the Imperium there is discretion. In fact I'd go further and say that law is not universally applied and a certain amount of inequality exists, otherwise how could the nobility exist?
 
That's what I had in mind but I was trying to avoid talking politics.

I don't think mentioning a real life example of a country that has rule of law without having a constitution qualifies as politics.

I still think the distances and time involved would make bearer warrants useful. What if before the ink is dry the recipient is killed? Back to square one. There are of course alternatives such as making a warrant out to "the office holder" or "the officer commanding" rather than simply "bearer".
Exactly. Or a list of named successors.

Still, many weeks from the Emperors office there is an attractiveness to having a bearer warrant held by the highest ranking local official in an "in case of emergency, break glass" format on the understanding that it would only be used in the direst circumstances.

Why not just give the highest ranking local official the authority to act in the first place? But never mind that; why not just name the highest ranking local official (by name or by office) in the warrant?

Incidentally, I wouldn't interpret the remarks in the library data about the rarity of Imperial warrants to cover giving members of the normal chains of command any. Also, Norris, one of the five highest ranking nobles in the Spinward Marches, had to appeal to the Emperor to get one, and when he did get one, none of the other nobles Behind the Claw had a warrant that would let them overrule his.

Of course bearer warrants are open to abuse, but this is a game and it needs its MacGuffins.

Not mcguffins that would lead the players to conclude that it must be a forgery by a blatantly ignorant forger. ;)

Come to that, letting a group of PCs get their hands on a warrant that they didn't have a right to carry and encouraging them to use it would be an extremely nasty hose job if the referee then had the Imperial authorities react as they could be expected to react once they realized that there was an unauthorized warrant floating around...

Do you really think that if a band of adventurers used an Imperial warrant, they'd actually be covered by the immunity it purported to grant, even if it would have covered a legitimate user?


But under a rule of law there would be no choice. Charges would be brought and a sentence carried out.
Um... the point I was making was that to the best of my knowledge every country in the world that has rule of law allows the authorities to refrain from prosecuting if the circumstances warrants it. If, for example, someone kills someone else in self-defense and the police decides that it really was self-defense, he's not usually charged with any offense.

This is where I agree with Azezel, in the Imperium there is discretion. In fact I'd go further and say that law is not universally applied and a certain amount of inequality exists, otherwise how could the nobility exist?
How did nobility exist in 19th Century Britain? And to take another historical example, Denmark was an absolute monarchy for a while (i.e. subject to a rule of man), but that didn't allow Danish nobles to flout the law.

BTW, one of the few positive canonical statements about Imperial law is that nobles are subject to it just the same as non-nobles. I would give a reference, but I can't remember just where it is. Wil? Chris? Anyone?


Hans
 
My take on "Men, not Laws" is three key elements:

1. The man on the scene does what is right, not what is mandated by law and regulation.
2. the legal standard is "Fair, reasonable and prudent" - with extensive judicial leeway in sentencing.
3. "Just following orders" isn't a mitigation defense, but usually an aggravating factor at trials.

The related corollaries

A. you have a right to address the jury and bench.
B. you have a duty to protect the Imperium and its people, even if that means violating the extant regulation
C. No formal constitutions.
D. You can appeal any imperial crime to the subsector or sector dukes. They have the right to read your appeal, and say, "I don't buy it. Enjoy your stay on asteroid x4553."
E. Creative punishments can be imposed.

This.



In my words, government is distributed, so that the local authority is the authority to address matters, and that local authority does things in whatever way suits that particular bit of the Imperium.

If the local authority is not capable, there are ways, perhaps byzantine, to change that.

If the local authority abuses authority, there are legal means, perhaps byzantine, to address that.
 
Do you really think that if a band of adventurers used an Imperial warrant, they'd actually be covered by the immunity it purported to grant, even if it would have covered a legitimate user?

That depends on the Patron that gave them the warrant and the amount of influence he or she has to enforce immunity or willingness to do the same after the adventurers have accomplished the mission. I think it unlikely that adventurers would just find a warrant (even if they sometimes happen to be on board a lost frontier cruiser). i think warrants are more about the granting authority backing them than the abstract idea.


Um... the point I was making was that to the best of my knowledge every country in the world that has rule of law allows the authorities to refrain from prosecuting if the circumstances warrants it. If, for example, someone kills someone else in self-defense and the police decides that it really was self-defense, he's not usually charged with any offense.

Discretion or the freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation isn't usually a function of the law but of the authority. The authority or the man can choose to enforce a law or not. Since unlawful killing or manslaughter are both capital or serious criminal offenses in most countries, where prosecutions are carried out on behalf of and in the name of the state, its the prosecution who decides if charges are brought. If charges are brought a grand jury or a judge may decide if there is a case to answer. The point I'm making is that this is closer to rule of man than rule of law. Law in itself does not have discretion. Law cannot have compassion and cannot take into account the unusual or unique circumstances that cause a law to be broken.


How did nobility exist in 19th Century Britain? And to take another historical example, Denmark was an absolute monarchy for a while (i.e. subject to a rule of man), but that didn't allow Danish nobles to flout the law.

The peerage existed in the United Kingdom because different standards of law were applied to different classes of people. Take inequality, laws were in place to restrict wealth and conveyancing of property for members of religions other than the established church. Likewise a master who killed his servant was only guilty of manslaughter or murder but a servant who killed his master was guilty of petty treason.

You might point to the provision of Magna Carta that all men were entitled to a jury of their peers, but for the peerage that meant they could demand trial at the bar of the House of Peers (House of Lords, upper chamber UK parliament).

In a system where many peers held the office of magistrate or judicial offices in the government many laws simply could not be applied to them because the system of complaint was closed to people seeking redress against a member of the peerage.

I'm afraid I'm not well versed in the Danish peerage but was a commoner able to bring a noble before a court of law and have a judgement in his favor enforced? Did the law provide a framework for dispensing justice or "the King's" justice?

In the Imperium nobles and citizens/commoners may well be equal before the law but only if the Imperium chooses to enforce the law. Which brings me back to: if The man on the scene does what is right, not what is mandated by law and regulation. the Imperium being a place of men not laws may not subject the man to any legal scrutiny of his actions and chalk it up to "the end justifies the means".

In some states the authority rules on the basis of law, in others law is a tool with which to rule. I think the Imperium falls into the latter case.
 
I look at it that way:

a) the Third Imperium is the set-up for a game

b) The Ref is not an archeologist trying to make sense of a whole civilisation using the few recovered indices (a.k.a. Canon), he is just trying to make sense of his adventure

c) there is more leeway for the Ref when the Men On The Spot have lots of leeways. Players that start a sentence with "what is the law..." spell problems (unless that is an obvious like "could we import...") for who want to write the whole planetary statute of every world ever visited by its players?

So what is coherent and consistent is not the color of the uniform, it is the fact that whoever wear the uniform decide the color of the uniform:)

have fun

Selandia
 
Discretion or the freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation isn't usually a function of the law but of the authority. The authority or the man can choose to enforce a law or not.
It's more than that. It's one of the functions of the executive part of the authorities to choose how to enforce the law. And it's a function that you find whether the society in question has rule of law or rule of man.

All these factors that you put forward as symptoms of rule of man are nothing of the sort. They can occur just as easily under rule of law (though the frequencies of occurrence may differ). The Supreme Autocrat can decree that nobles can be sued by commoners and the constitutionally appointed Parliament can enact a law that nobles can't be sued by commoners. It has nothing to do with the distinction between rule of man and rule of law, which is wether the lawgiver(s) are himself/themselves bound by the law or not.

I'm afraid I'm not well versed in the Danish peerage but was a commoner able to bring a noble before a court of law and have a judgement in his favor enforced? Did the law provide a framework for dispensing justice or "the King's" justice?
I don't know and it isn't relevant. I was giving an example of a society with rule of man where the nobles were not free to ignore the law.


Hans
 
I look at it that way:

a) the Third Imperium is the set-up for a game

b) The Ref is not an archeologist trying to make sense of a whole civilisation using the few recovered indices (a.k.a. Canon), he is just trying to make sense of his adventure.

I look at it this way:

a) We're not running a game (at least, I'm not).

b) If some of us enjoy trying to make sense of a whole civilisation using the few recovered indices (a.k.a. Canon), we should be allowed to do so in peace. If others don't enjoy that sort of thing they're perfectly at liberty to refrain from following our debates.


Hans
 
Do you know of any country, with or without a constitution, where the executive power does not have the choice of bringing charges or not? I don't.


Hans

The power to lay charges is separated out from the executive authority in most of the US. The (usually elected) District Attorney has final authority on whether or not to lay charges. Mayors, governors, presidents can pardon, but can't quash the charges. Police can arrest and start charges, but the DA can quash them. Or bring them when not brought by police.
 
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