I may be mistaken in my beliefs about government branches. What do you call the branch that has the power to lay charges then? They're not legislative and they're not judicial, are they?
Hans
Men, not Laws
- Thread starter Azezel
- Start date
I may be mistaken in my beliefs about government branches. What do you call the branch that has the power to lay charges then? They're not legislative and they're not judicial, are they?
Hans
Not to mention the countless different sophont races, each with its phisiologic and psichologic needs, aside their own cultures...
It uses to be the judicial brach who decides if some supected crime is taken to court, usually at instances of the law enforcement forces (they are in between judicial and executive) or even aprivate asking (suit), but some times even at their own initiative.
But we must be very careful to discuss this without entering politics, as the line is quite thin...
Usually I think they would straddle the two branches. The office is usually independent of the executive and judicial branches. They are usually constitutional officers either appointed or elected.
They are usually qualified attorneys at law and as such they are officers of the court. They take prosecutions in the name of the people. They are not supposed to be influenced by political considerations.
I see where your confusion comes from as Chief constables are prosecutors in the district courts in their respective districts in Denmark, but this is not the case in most common law countries.
They are usually qualified attorneys at law and as such they are officers of the court. They take prosecutions in the name of the people. They are not supposed to be influenced by political considerations.
I see where your confusion comes from as Chief constables are prosecutors in the district courts in their respective districts in Denmark, but this is not the case in most common law countries.
It's people with the discretion to decide whether or not to prosecute and whatever they're called and however they're organized they exist in all countries with rule of law that I know of.
Hans
I started a) with "I look..." NOT "WE should look"
and B) with "the ref..." not the "Contributors to this forum..."
So don't take it so personnal.
I certainly do not have the intent nor power to stop (and not even trying for that would be foolish and arrogant) anybody from doing sense from few indices. I just contributed to this interesting exercice by pointing a playability factor (for those that feel concerned by the game, people that I suppose you do not claim shall be banned from this topic?).
And as usual I close with "have fun"
Selandia
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
"Separated out" does not mean a separate branch, but placed at one remove from the actual executive, but with some measure of independence. The office is still generally under the executive branch, with some authority wielded by the judiciary over it.
One key distinction here (that Hans is making) is that "rule of law" does not necessarily mean "equality under the law". A place can be "rule of law" and have inequalities built into that law. However, someplace that is "rule of man" will have those inequalities because the whims of the ruler(s) will decide one's fate.
For one historical US comparison:
The country as a whole, in 1880, was "rule of law". Modern policing techniques were even underway in places like NY City. However, in Tombstone, AZ, a guy named Wyatt Earp pretty well ran the law side of things. Oh yes, there were written laws, but if you got on the bad side of Wyatt (or his brothers), he would find a reason to arrest you. He kept the town as peaceful and orderly as any boom town in the west at the time. But, he did it partly by deciding whether someone needed arresting not necessarily based on the written law, but on whether he thought they were a good person or not.
For a cinematic comparison (loads of possibilities here):
Road House is the story of a drifter who comes to a town where the local wealthy guy gets his way - all the time. Even when he breaks laws. Even when he breaks them right in front of the police. Because everyone in the town answers to him, regardless of the law. The drifter proceeds to kick a lot of butt and save the town. Trite and formulaic (and some say full of mediocre acting), but an example of "rule of man".
But rather bright a line, hard to miss: Value judgements.
[m;]As long as no value judgements are made about the real world ones, I'm not going to infract anyone over it. Make a qualitative comment, and it's sin-bin for 3 points.[/m;]
Technically, the DA's are judicial branch in most places. In a few, they're dual judicial and executive by virtue of being appointed by and answerable to executive authority. (My hometown's Municipal Prosecutor, the final authority in laying charges, is dual - he serves at the pleasure of the mayor, but can wind up terminated by a judge suspending his law license, or the Bar Association suspending or revoking it. And the candidate has to already be a member of the bar, and approved by the Council.) Even when a grand jury is required by law to lay the charge, the DA is the one who convenes it, and can dismiss it, and who asks them for the charge to be laid.
The argument could be made that the system of prosecutors and grand juries in the US almost constitutes a 4th branch of government, due to the checks and balances within the Judicial branch. But they are formally Judicial branch.
Very well. I'll rephrase my question to Azezel then:
Do you know of any country, with or without a constitution, where one branch or another of the government does not have the choice of bringing charges or not? I don't.
Hans
In regards to the original post, the T4 book Millieu 0 describes the thought process Cleon I used to form the Third Imperium. There the "Men, not Laws" is well in play. Basically, forming the "nobility" the 3I used originated with Cleon Zhunastu and those in other areas in power who shared his vision. Honor and trust (qualities not imposed by law) were major qualities in the formation of the Imperium:
I guess Cleon I didn't understand what feudal meant. It's not just any hierachy; it's a very particularily constructed hierachy. (And the one about there being no politicians to corrupt is either wonderfully cynical or wonderfully naive 
). But in any case, there's nothing here that speaks of the lesser nobles being above the Emperor's law any more than they would have been above a constutional emperor's law.
Hans
). But in any case, there's nothing here that speaks of the lesser nobles being above the Emperor's law any more than they would have been above a constutional emperor's law.Hans
Hans, yep you are correct on the key details. Humans, in "real life" are not entirely selfless on the whole. Cleon's vision was not naive. His implementation is naive from a real life point of view. In the book, he sought advice of university professors (ya, ivory towers go figure) and others:
Again, the Imperium is not real life. Two portions I have not quoted were his reasons for doing this: a desire of seeing his Zhunastu corporation staying top dog and vision of seeing that the Sylean Federation might fall due to existing factors, forming for the Sylean Federation another "Long Night".
One thing I wonder about this Men, not Laws policy is how it is accepted by the Vilani traditionalists.
The Vilane, as depicted in MT:V&V (AFAIK the only supplement to fully describe them) give outomst importance to consensus, and so are unlikely to accept this "man on the spot" policy, where a single man, invested with authority, takes the decisions without having to consult with anyone.
And don't forget Vilani is one of the main races in Imperium. I guess this policies helped to make them think they were in a Solomani dominated Imperium (as told in several supplements and in most explanation of the roots of the Solomani War)...
The Vilane, as depicted in MT:V&V (AFAIK the only supplement to fully describe them) give outomst importance to consensus, and so are unlikely to accept this "man on the spot" policy, where a single man, invested with authority, takes the decisions without having to consult with anyone.
And don't forget Vilani is one of the main races in Imperium. I guess this policies helped to make them think they were in a Solomani dominated Imperium (as told in several supplements and in most explanation of the roots of the Solomani War)...
Another flaw. As we can see from studying human history, once a society gives up on the "Divine Right" to rule belief, absolute monarchies ALWAYS disappear. At BEST they devolve into Constitutional figureheads. Along with that goes "noble" power. This is SO consistent that it is almost a law of human nature.
I think that the Vilani do not adhere to this principal locally and are allowed to get away with it. At the Imperium level, they likely the most conservative faction in the Imperium.
Millieu 0 has a nice writup on just the Vilani on pp.47-50. It implies an explanation:
Later paragraphs mention as Cleon was on the negotiation team for the Syleans, this gave him the idea to let individual worlds remain individual. Finally, to insure this, the Vilani make themselves a "sizable minority" in the courts of nobles.
Because of the communication lag, a Vilani noble may make the "right" decision, but his or her sense of "right" is going to be influenced by Vilani culture standards. It also makes sense that it will be done by a group/block/faction whenever possible (consulting with other Vilani in court, looking to history, etc.) as befits Vilani culture.
In the U.S. model, the FBI is of the executive branch. The legislative makes law, the executive implements and enforces them - including apprehending baddies who (they believe) broke them - and the judicial judges people who've been charged. The U.S. Attorney General and the Justice Department are also part of the executive branch. In fact, the FBI is a bureau within the Justice Department.
I don't know whether or to what extent state or local governments follow the same models with their police forces and attorneys. I also don't know if this same division exists within British government or the colonial forms that evolve from it, and I haven't the slightest notion how the Chinese do it, so there's no saying this is the best or most common model or even the model that the Imperium might follow. It's just familiar to me.
Everything always disappears. The fact that representative forms dominate now does not mean they will endure indefinitely. And, while the absolute monarchy has fallen by the side, we've seen that functionally similar models based on raw power - a variety of tyrannies making no claim to divine right but nonetheless enjoying absolute or near absolute power - have emerged, in some cases from democratic or representative government forms.
The 3I is NOT represented as a Tyrannical gov. Hence my analysis is correct and the 3I gov as described would not exist for even 100 years.
Cleon managed to sell the notion that interstellar government above the size of a sector could not be run in any othe fashion than an autocracy. As long as "everybody knows" that this is the case, only dreamers and nutcases would try to introduce democracy at the Imperium level.
Hans
Irrelevant to my point of it being implausible in the extreme. I'm not questioning the written canon. Only the impossibility of the scenario IRL.
