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In watching this in both this forum and the Mongoose forum I have to say I think you two have stated where I think a lot of us are.

Truth is, I wish the book was perfect. I do not expect it will be. But the silence from any official source to say anything, even 'Shut Up it is not a problem" is the thing that bothers me the most.

I have many deck plans and can and will live with this one as is. I am sorry they seem to ignore a simple question requesting clerification.

Daniel
 
You make it sound as if he didn't screw up when he designed the deck plans.

Boy, you really can't skip an opportunity to fingerpoint , can you ?

If I'm making it sound like anything, and I'm a little baffled as to where your interpretation of my post comes from, I'd make it sound like he screwed up when he decided to try to be flippant and casual with his initial response to this particular group of dead horse beaters......
 
The Type S is a specification, not a particular model of ship. Over the 3I, many models will have come and gone, made by different corporations, to different designs, in different places.

Some will be bigger, take up more room, some will be more compact. In my version of future reality, starship design won't keep to nice 100dton chunks. A variance of 35% either way isn't an issue, as we should not chain the designer to the tyranny of a ship design system, which is an abstract approximation at best. As long as it conforms roughly to the stated volume, I'm happy. So not more than 50% bigger, or half the size, anything else is just interesting variance.

Variance of the sort you find in the interior space and comfort levels of similarly specced cars.

To be phlegmatic about it, we just have another design of type S here, to go alongside the Sulieman and Bryan Gibson's "Snowbird' (my handle :)). I personally prefer the Sulieman's expansive layout rather than the more claustrophobic arrangement of the other two; which, btw, can be wrangled into a closer to accurate rendition anyway (or at least fit within the stated dimensions of the wedge) - I had a version half done when my hard drive went kaput last year, but I did find ways to make it fit better. Might have another go if work allows.

On the other hand, there is the original problem that, as Kharum originally stated, the deckplan was done to conform to a design spec that is not the one printed with it, which to me seems wrong anyway in the way that there's way too much maneuver fuel for a vessel born to skim and with a purifier, space better used for cargo/special equipment (as per the original description). Compound this with the error of 1 sq = 1dton it makes it all very hard to work out what is actually right, as the parameters keep on shifting, because it seems there's errors (though minor) in every aspect of it.

I've not yet assimilated the new ship design sequence so cannot confirm whether this design spec is actually correct or not.

My only certain (though mild) criticism is the concept, which I find a bit flat when compared to the Sulieman, which is interesting and seems more spacious than it is (even with 36% too much space). It has nooks and crannies and different ways of getting around. It has more than one route getting from engineering to the cockpit. In other words, great roleplaying potential in several kinds of scenario. (It does seem to have 6 or so outer hatches but not one dedicated airlock, but you can stick an entry/exit airlock at the end of the air/raft bay corridor). The upper gallery is a great place to hide an illicit still on IISS vessels...

It seems better to me to let a designer come up with an interesting deckplan then fit a ship design around it. Traveller deckplans tend toward a saminess IMHO, though there are many honourable exceptions.

This is a bit of a crosspost from the MGT forums, but this thread is getting more traffic, and more thorough discussion too. :)

BTW it looks like this is Kharum's own external view of his ship. Quite nifty, composed like that. Still less interesting for me than the Suli as a deckplan, but a nice variant to have knocking about.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/index.php?n=192

Oops, I think that's wrong - was uploaded by Hunter, so prob BG's ship. Looks to fit Kharum's deckplan better than the illo in the preview tho.

Is BG's ship, hence the patently obvious BG sig in the corner. :eek:
 
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BTW it looks like this is Kharum's own external view of his ship. Quite nifty, composed like that.

I think that's a damn good looking ship. They definitely should have used that pic, or a line drawing of it, for the preview/MGT book.

Deckplans sure seem to fit it further.
 
Not everyone thinks he did screw up in fact. Myself for one, and some here know how picky I am when it comes to counting squares.

I'm pretty sure he screwed up. Because the MGT combat scale is 1.5 m, and the key is 1.5 m. It doesn't make any sense at all to go to 2 m per square when the rest of the game is using a 1.5 m grid.

I think, when the tonnage problem was pointed out, he backpeddled and increased the square size.

Regardless. It was a mistake. Fine. Just fix it!

Re-do the deckplans, on a 1.5 m grid, so that it shows correct tonnage.

I don't think that's asking a lot.
 
As noted above I wasn't taking his own statement of 1.5m squares being 1ton each at face value. I'm sure that was the mistake, made in all honesty it seems, and under that assumption the deckplans are "correct" in many ways.

The 2m squares "fix" wasn't his idea as I recall, but probably an attempt to salvage the work without considering other issues. I think it was offered and taken in good faith but still not a perfect solution.

And as noted there will be no perfect solution.

A re-do at 1.5m squares won't be that easy either depending on the approach taken, trust me, I've tried similar in the past with other wonky designs. It's usually easier by far to start from scratch. I think it is asking a lot, but it is expected that they should be usable so a fix is required.

Personally I think my fix(es) mentioned earlier might salvage a lot of it and require only a little reworking. In fact I started on it when this whole thing blew up. I didn't finish but if you're interested in seeing it as a possibly helpful guide Kharum you're welcome to it.
 
Boy, you really can't skip an opportunity to fingerpoint , can you ?

Hi Pot. Kettle is on line 2. Something about being black, he said you would understand.

I had hoped this thread had moved on from the charge/counter-charge phase. How naive am I? Can you believe I even asked Mongoose an innocent question about it and expected to get an answer? Right I'm off to buy some magic beans.

S4, Jack, I apologise for interupting your pissing contest. Please, by all means continue...

*Gallowglacht, officialy sick of this crap*
 
The Type S is a specification, not a particular model of ship. Over the 3I, many models will have come and gone, made by different corporations, to different designs, in different places.

A valid point. Just like in the real world, I'd expect there to be competing designs for the same specification. And in many cases, "losing" designs might well be put into production. The F-18 competed with the F-16 for the "light fighter" specification in the 1970s. But the Navy preferred the F-18 to the victorious F-16 (mainly because the F-18 has 2 engines, an important consideration in naval aircraft) and it was modified and went into production alongside the F-16. 30 years later, the two aircraft are still serving side by side (with somewhat different operational capabilities). The Leopard-1 and AMX-30 main battle tanks were designed for a "Eurotank" in the 1960s. When the Leopard-1 was selected, the French went ahead and built the AMX-30. Both tanks served in various armies.

The same might well happen in the Third Imperium, with various operators choosing competing designs for reasons of economy, corruption, or even insufficient production numbers of the winner.

My only criticism (besides that the deckplans are too small for a 1.5m grid and too large for a 2m grid) is that this design is offered as the *standard* Type-S for the Third Imperium. Since the iconic wedge-shaped ship has been established for almost 30 years, I see no good reason to change it. That said, Kharum's deckplans would fit the standard wedge hull, so it's a bit of a tempest in a teapot.

And I did not criticize the art itself. The plans are clear, readable and attractive, as far as I'm concerned. I just don't think they're scaled right.
 
Hi Pot. Kettle is on line 2. Something about being black, he said you would understand.

I had hoped this thread had moved on from the charge/counter-charge phase. How naive am I? Can you believe I even asked Mongoose an innocent question about it and expected to get an answer? Right I'm off to buy some magic beans.

S4, Jack, I apologise for interupting your pissing contest. Please, by all means continue...

*Gallowglacht, officialy sick of this crap*

Fair enough. Not sure why this got up my nose so badly, but, yes, it's move on time. S4, Gallowglacht, my apologies to you and all.
 
This is a D20 site ?

Ah, that stupid navigation system failed again ... :nonono:

Well there's your problem. You're still using the Model D6 navicomp, no wonder you're lost. I got an upgrade to the new Model D20 in stock, it's fully backwards compatible to the old Model D6 but adds heaps of new functionality and reliability.

:D
 
Well there's your problem. You're still using the Model D6 navicomp, no wonder you're lost.

It is even worse than that. I use the brand new Model D100 navicomp, but it seems
the Zero Edition still has some problems and sometimes delivers only D20 results ... :eek:o:
 
FWIW,
Mongoose are looking over redone deckplans and will release as pdf.

Now, that's extremely excellent news. They should have mentioned this much, much earlier. But, that's the type of thing that impresses me. If you screw up, it's not good. But, heck, man! Admit the mistake and then correct it.

A simple statement like, "Yep, the deckplans are messed up, and it's not possible to fix them before the book goes to print. But, we will release a pdf with correct deckplans for free."

Seeing stuff like that restores confidence. So, kudos to them.

I think they should admit stuff like this earlier, though. My distaste for the deckplans has taken root somewhat, along with some other problems that MGT has. If I had seen a Mongoose statement to this effect earlier, it would have been better than letting the bad taste fester.

But, hey, at least the deckplans are being fixed!

That's a good thing!

Maybe in later printings of the book, they can switch out the deckplans with the corrected ones.
 
It's been out TWO WEEKS.

Would you have preferred a "we're looking at it" with no promise of actual revision, or the "we have the revisions, and will release them when they are checked out" that we just got? At two weeks after release.

Keep in mind that GDW used to release and revise on a QUARTERLY schedule.
 
Actually it's been nearly 5 weeks since it was pointed out.

I would have loved a quick word and less arguement. But still, this is good news.
 
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