CT Only: PCs and TL

[creativehum]

Quick question -- and probably tangental (but maybe not!):

Do most people here assume the TL Chart shows a progression (the progression) that a culture or world is supposed to follow?

I certainly don't. We've already had a ton of examples of nations jumping infrastructure and technology as tech arrives. As Condottiere pointed out, "Third world countries can skip this step, if a cheap, easily implemented technology can be imported and sustained, like wireless communications and solar panelling." (flykiller selectively ignore this second sentence of Condottiere's post when quoting Condittiere's post and dismissing it... but that's how he rolls.)

Moreover, I'm thinking of the adventure Marc Miller ran for some friends and wrote about in the Space Gamer. The PCs traveled to the world of Vior (X500401-1), a world described as looking uninhabitable but actually containing several airlock chambers giving access to an extensive airlock habitat.

Though the world has no air, and the tech level is 1, there is a primitive, semi-canablisitc society on the planet. Miller created a "technology" that allows these primitive people to live: They bring in snow from outside, which melts and releases oxygen, and use hide (human hide!) in layers along the lengths of the tunnels heading outside to keep the oxygen inside the tunnels.

Thus, we have TL 1 airlocks.

I bring all this ups because I think I see the Tech Level index (and it was called an index in 1977) as a series of reference points to come up with comparable technology that might be, in fact, not literally the same as what we might imagine given our own world's history.

But I might be alone in this kind of thinking. Curious what others think about this.

 

[flykiller]

While Tarsus can use the necessary tools, Tarsus did not make the necessary tools.

true, but you said "affords" and "maintains". hawaii affords and maintains quite a bit, even has a naval base. but except for the pineapples and beaches it's all shipped in.

Coherent perhaps in your head, not in RL as attested to quite a bit

the real world attestations seem to indicate the points I made.

and more importantly not for game purposes.

if one enjoys incoherent games. some do.

 

[flykiller]

(flykiller selectively ignore this second sentence of Condottiere's post when quoting Condittiere's post and dismissing it... but that's how he rolls.)

indeed, I do try to stay on point - which was the difference between having something and being able to make something. if there is no distinction between buying something and making something yourself, then yeah, you're right.

 

[Condottiere]

If you can make anti gravity transport cheap enough, you solve the need for creating a national or transcontinental rail or road network, combined with a fourteen cubic metre fusion reactor, which Traveller presumes is available at technological level eight, you move into a post scarcity economy.

 

[mike wightman]

Quick question -- and probably tangental (but maybe not!):

Do most people here assume the TL Chart shows a progression (the progression) that a culture or world is supposed to follow?
But I might be alone in this kind of thinking. Curious what others think about this.

I think it depends on the setting you create or borrow.

If you run a campaign based in the near future - an Expanse type setting - you may limit the TL to 9. They discover the jump drive, head off and discover relic alien civilisations or perhaps even a higher TL benevolent alien society that gifts them the next TL. Or perhaps the relics are all there is and it takes centuries to achieve TL10, then a few more centuries for TL11 etc. Or they pick up TL13 power plant tech here, TL16 matter transport there etc.

Or think of Blake's 7 where a super advanced ship falls into the lap of the Travellers...

The 3rd Imperium began life at TL12 1100 years ago in the setting history. It advanced through the TLs over the centuries until TL 15 was achieved over a century ago.
After 100 years I can not believe that TL15 toys have not made it onto every world in the Imperium. Every world with a computer terminal and access to an Imperial data archive or library data knows about all of it.

Local tech may max at 8, but you can buy in the higher TL stuff and the skills are learnable by anyone who wants to learn.

There is no prime directive in the Imperium, so very few developing races are protected from ethically challenged merchants, or Travellers with dreams of grandeur and riches. That the Imperium actually does interdict some worlds 'for their protection' immediately raises my suspicions about such worlds.

Yet another setting may even be based at the TL20 max of the CT table - my Culture rip off and the Mindjammer setting both do this.
In my Culture there are regions of the galaxy at different TLs and only the races TL17+ have the tech to travel between them. To an inhabitant of such a region it would be very 3rd Imperium like, with rumours of Ancients and super advanced races - little do they know said higher TL beasties walk amongst them.

The B5 setting is interesting with its tiers or technologically developed races - Lorien, the old ones, the vorlons and shadows, the minbari, the young races. The latter know a bit about those above them on the tree, but very little about those twice removed and only rumour and legend beyond that. There is a thriving trade in high tech scavenging though...

Then there is the question of a long night setting, or a rebuilding from an apocalypse setting where individual worlds may be much higher TL than their neighbours but do not trade. Travellers going from world to world would notice the disparate technology. You may make a trip froma TL6 world to a TL14 world thanks to a handy merchantman, Viking, or smuggler and notice there is practically no knowledge beyond TL6 on the TL6 world but the TL14 world is aware of the potential of TL17 since some traders called by a few months ago.

There is also the old different technologies progress at different rates - so a world with sentient robots, matter transport and antimatter power plants but lacks jump capability...

TL;DR

in some settings I would have an hierarchical TL progression, in others I would have a smorgasbord.

Sorry for the rambling.

 

[Whipsnade]

true, but you said "affords" and "maintains". hawaii affords and maintains quite a bit, even has a naval base. but except for the pineapples and beaches it's all shipped in.

So, Hawaii is TL1?

 

[flykiller]

So, Hawaii is TL1?

does the tech level of any world go up as soon as a scout ship lands?

hawaii is objectively tech level 1 (if that), yes. as part of the united states it is virtually tech level 8, because the tech is readily available by normal commercial means. you walk into a store, it's there. it breaks, you can fix it or replace it. no-one tells you, "we won't have that until the next ship gets in" (... I presume ....). but hawaii in and of itself is not capable of producing said goods, it merely has access to them.

 

[aramis]

To economically illustrate Bill's point...

Assuming the 1 Cargo Ton is the larger number from Vol/14 kL or Mass/10 metric tons...

The cost of shipping a rail engine of say, the d6 class (a fairly exemplary 4-4-0 engine)...
43.9 metric tonnes, 17.7m long, 4.6m high, roughly 3m wide.. and not all of it full height... call it 230 kL without being packed. It could even be loaded on portable rails into a Type R or Type A under its own power...
So that's about 17 Td by volume, 5 Td by mass. Stack 12 tons of steel rail with, and it's KCr17 per parsec shipped - rail is about 57kg/m per rail, 2 needed, so 120 per m of track, after adding spikes and join plates/bolts, you get about 100m of track stacked on it, too.

A Td of rail being about 80m of track plus packaging, probably in a 4m long 1.5m tall and wide..
The rail's cost is probably about Cr1500 per Td, so 12.5 Td/km of track... and KCr12.5 per parsec for shipping...

Rail is going to be local manufacture - it's just too much a markup to ship more than a parsec.

The Engines, tho'... finding prices is tough. KCr442 per Emperor's Vehicles (T4). And that can be reduced by higher TL. Borrowing from T5... we can quarter the price by off-world manufacturing (using the Generic and Modified version elements) so about 111 KCr..., and 1.35 times the weight. (so only 9 tonnes of rail added) That allows a reasonable range for shipping 17 Cargo Tons Displacement. 19 Parsecs shipping range from a TL 8+ world.

Reminder: Tonnes is metric tons. Cargo Tons is a variant of Displacement Tons (Td) the higher of Td taken or 1/10 the Tonnes mass of the cargo....

 

[Whipsnade]

does the tech level of any world go up as soon as a scout ship lands?

That's one extreme, just as autarky is the other. However, people far too often default to the autarky end of the spectrum.

The answer was spelled out decades ago in the quote Mike shared:

The technological level is used in conjunction with the technological level table to determine the general quality and capability of local industry. The tables indicate the general types or categories of goods in general use on the world. In most cases, such goods are the best which may be produced locally, although better goods may be imported by local organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt. In most cases, local citizenry will not be armed with weapons of a type which cannot be produced locally, although police or military may be. Technological level also indicates the general ability of local technology to repair or maintain items which have failed or malfunctioned.

 

[kilemall]

if one enjoys incoherent games. some do.

Er.

Can't help you here, firmly into 'what you like' territory rather then what the rule says or that applying the MANY RL examples or lines in the rule that cover goods 'Made in Industworld' 3 parsecs away being a thing.

Or that strict adherence to the TL table is somehow coherence or high gameplay value.

My philosophy is to create more a sense of a place and time with unique mixes of everything, not a standardized planetary franchise of equipment available or faced.

 

[flykiller]

In most cases, such goods are the best which may be produced locally

sounds great.

although better goods may be imported by local organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt.

this on the other hand is a loophole big enough to fly an exploding tigress through - there's always going to be a huge parade of organizations and businesses that feel lots of specific needs for lots of imports. it renders the idea of a planetary tech level meaningless. consider rhylanor/porozlo. with tech 15 rhylanor right next door and millions of ultra-wealthy rhylanor travelling to and/or retiring on terran-norm porozlo, how would porozlo be tech 10 at all if imports are a measure of tech level?

not to mention jewell, the cold war point world against the zhodani for the entire imperium. by any tech imports measure it should be 15+ by now. or regina, the sector duke's home - that should be 15+ as well.

 

[flykiller]

My philosophy is to create more a sense of a place and time with unique mixes of everything

sounds great, but "'Made in Industworld' 3 parsecs away" plus several centuries of trade equals every world being rated tech 15, just like hawaii is rated tech 8.

 

[flykiller]

aaaaaaand getting back to the original post - is a pc's tech-level-experience that of his home world or that of the "'Made in Industworld' 3 parsecs away" world?

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm intrigued by using a character's stats to describe the level of technology the character is capable of using.

Here's what I'm thinking...

EXAMPLE

Nama Dern 7689A6 AutoRifle-2, Navigation-1, Computer-1, Vacc Suit-0 Homeworld: Pysadi TL 4.

Nama's minimum TL is TL 4, but because this is a Traveller character, the character has greatly benefited from higher education and tech bleed from the Class C starport. Nama's EDU serves as her base TL, at TL A.

With weapons, Nama is familiar with autorifles up to TL C.

And, Nama is proficient with starship Navigation equipment and Computers up to TL B.

Nama is trained in Vacc Suits up to TL A.



Let's say that Nama wants to operate TL C Battledress. She can attempt to make a leap of logic. Roll 2D looking for INT or less. That's 2D for 9-. If successful, Nama can operate the Battledress without TL restriction.

But, let's say that Nama fails that roll. Still allow Nama to use the Battledress, but imply a TL penalty modifier. In this case, TL C Battledress minus TL A Vacc Suit equals a -2 TL modifiers to all throws associated with the Battledress.

Maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong end.

What if Travellers only come from worlds with X TL and gravity close to 1 G standard (or an environment that supports 1G standard)?

TL 4 Pysadi wouldn't be an acceptable world for a PC or NPC of the Traveller class. (We're talking in general--there are always exceptions.)

TL B Aramis would be a world where Travellers come from (assuming the city of Leedor uses grav plates to line the floor of the mine city in order to keep the inhabitants in a 1G standard field.)

Looking at the game this way, characters do not have a TL. Or, in other words, all PCs and NPC Travellers would come from a sufficient tech background to where technology is really never an issue.

Maybe the game assumes this posture.

 

[Whipsnade]

how would porozlo be tech 10 at all if imports are a measure of tech level?

How is most of Mexico a ****hole when all the tourist enclaves operate at TL8?

Once again, you're thinking binary Fly. It's not a question of all or nothing, up or down, one or zero. It's not a question of one extreme or the other.

TL isn't a measure of local manufacturing only, TL isn't a measure of local usage only, and TL isn't a measure of imports only.

TL is a BLEND of all those things and several more.

The LBB says as much.

 

[creativehum]

How is most of Mexico a ****hole when all the tourist enclaves operate at TL8?

Once again, you're thinking binary Fly. It's not a question of all or nothing, up or down, one or zero. It's not a question of one extreme or the other.

TL isn't a measure of local manufacturing only, TL isn't a measure of local usage only, and TL isn't a measure of imports only.

TL is a BLEND of all those things and several more.

The LBB says as much.

To be fair, if one sees the UWP as some sort of objective classification of a Main World (which is what it was sold as over time during Classic Traveller's lifespan) one might expect it to be more precise and absolute than it is.

If one reads the actual text, however, it is obviously as you describe it. The thing is, as I've said before, the actual rules and tools of the game don't support a lot of the assumptions about setting, fluff, and play that got baked into the Traveller material as years went by.

 

[Carlobrand]

...

A TL4 crossbowman would have no issue operating an M-16 after a 5 minute orientation. ...

I wouldn't go that far. Crossbow quarrels, traveling at lower speed, tend to drop a lot more over range than your typical bullet. Crossbowman's going to have to unlearn a bit about adjusting for range. I'd assign a range penalty to a TL4 crossbowman trying to fire a rifle for that reason, at least until he spent an hour or so in a firing range.

Also, crossbows are not famous for emitting loud explosive sounds when they launch their projectiles. We moderns know the "bang" occurs, and it's still a bit of a battle not to flinch. All the crossbowman's training in terms of aim and release will go for naught if he's flinching like a newbie. So, he can figure out which end to point and how to trigger it easily enough, but he's basically a newb with a penalty at long range until he gets some practice in.

A lot of this is situational. Doesn't take much instruction to figure out a microwave - but you might not actually believe your food can be heated in a couple minutes, so your first few efforts might be quite the comedy show. (And did we mention not to put metal in there?) Figuring out a modern camera or VCR is beyond the skills of even some of us moderns. Keyboard-based computers might be quite the challenge, but once voice command and touch screen get good enough, it's not going to take much training to show someone how to find the Library program and a few other fun bits. Still, that doesn't mean the guy who was yoking oxen last month is going to be able to fire the ship's lasers today.

Conversely, someone who is used to a microwave or a nice range with dials and a timer might have a devil of a time trying to cook something without burning it on an old-fashioned wood-burning stove, and being able to type on a computer keyboard does not mean you're going to be very competent on an old mechanical typewriter.

Gamemaster's going to end up making rulings on a case by case basis, and that could get quite amusing.

 

[kilemall]

sounds great, but "'Made in Industworld' 3 parsecs away" plus several centuries of trade equals every world being rated tech 15, just like hawaii is rated tech 8.

Plenty of explanations to cover that, including feudal mercantilism, corporate manipulation, cultural stagnation/nihilism, depleted resources, having to import all food, too much population for too little earning potential, wars/famines/bad sports outcomes, basket case governments, Butlerian Jihad like strictures, etc. etc. etc.

 

[kilemall]

Maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong end.

What if Travellers only come from worlds with X TL and gravity close to 1 G standard (or an environment that supports 1G standard)?

TL 4 Pysadi wouldn't be an acceptable world for a PC or NPC of the Traveller class. (We're talking in general--there are always exceptions.)

TL B Aramis would be a world where Travellers come from (assuming the city of Leedor uses grav plates to line the floor of the mine city in order to keep the inhabitants in a 1G standard field.)

Looking at the game this way, characters do not have a TL. Or, in other words, all PCs and NPC Travellers would come from a sufficient tech background to where technology is really never an issue.

Maybe the game assumes this posture.

I assume that a lot of Travellers are from those Core World LL A+ planets, and they want to get hell out of the stifling control freak hell of those worlds.

But again, don't miss the trick of having the TL 15 citizen not grasping the idea of having to manually set the buttons on the TL 8 microwave. Ew, doesn't it KNOW how to cook, take my verbal instructions or autoload my preferences from the Net? What sort of a stone knives and bearskin house is this?

 

[kilemall]

aaaaaaand getting back to the original post - is a pc's tech-level-experience that of his home world or that of the "'Made in Industworld' 3 parsecs away" world?

It's his homeworld, which has some products from Industworld made to the TL that is sustainable locally, and then the PC had a career, got out into the galaxy and dealt with near-AI robots and learning how to use a manual vacuum cleaner.

It's the NPCs that never got off the planet where the TL issue needs to get full play.

IMO.