CT Only: PCs and TL

[aramis]

I wouldn't go that far. Crossbow quarrels, traveling at lower speed, tend to drop a lot more over range than your typical bullet. Crossbowman's going to have to unlearn a bit about adjusting for range. I'd assign a range penalty to a TL4 crossbowman trying to fire a rifle for that reason, at least until he spent an hour or so in a firing range.

Also, crossbows are not famous for emitting loud explosive sounds when they launch their projectiles. We moderns know the "bang" occurs, and it's still a bit of a battle not to flinch. All the crossbowman's training in terms of aim and release will go for naught if he's flinching like a newbie. So, he can figure out which end to point and how to trigger it easily enough, but he's basically a newb with a penalty at long range until he gets some practice in.

5 rounds fired, and 5 minutes, and that crossbowman is using the weapon credibly - not terribly accurately, but able to swap a mag, charge the weapon, and put rounds in the general vicinity of the target.

Also, the crossbow era was also the era of the first grenades in battle... the bang isn't THAT big an issue. And it's not like crossbows are silent. Even a weak one (SCA legal) makes a big twang and is loud enough to be heard inside a steel and foam SCA bascinet helm from a couple meters. Also, cannons were present in many battles, too.

Edit: Thinking about it, the hardest conversion would be the either modern or crossbowman to black powder muzzle loaders or percussion revolvers... Reloading is a huge skill hurdle. Firing? Not a big deal, but reloading in combat is a real problem. I know the steps, and have done it, but it's a pain, and I'd not be competent in a fight, despite being able to strip an AR-15...

 

[RandyB]

I assume that a lot of Travellers are from those Core World LL A+ planets, and they want to get hell out of the stifling control freak hell of those worlds.

But again, don't miss the trick of having the TL 15 citizen not grasping the idea of having to manually set the buttons on the TL 8 microwave. Ew, doesn't it KNOW how to cook, take my verbal instructions or autoload my preferences from the Net? What sort of a stone knives and bearskin house is this?

"Keyboard. How quaint."

 

[pendragonman]

Or from the movie "Demolition Man"

The hero, John Spartan, trying to figure out how to use the bathroom...or how to have "relations".

Talk about trying to get TL differences...

 

[Supplement Four]

I assume that a lot of Travellers are from those Core World LL A+ planets, and they want to get hell out of the stifling control freak hell of those worlds.

Make sense, but I wonder how far Travellers travel. Travelling is so expensive, that I'm under the assumption that Travellers really don't go that far away from their homeworlds, galatically speaking. Say...within two subsectors from their home subsector. That's an area about the size, but different shape, than a sector.

Sure, there are those who span the Imperium, edge to edge, but I would think these Travellers are rare.

For example, those in the Spinward Marches--for most--have never met a true Solomani, or a Hiver or K'kree before. They do meet mostly humani from the Marches, Zhodani, Aslan, Vargr, Sword Worlders, and Darrians.

 

[Timerover51]

A Tech Level 15 asteroid dweller visiting a Tech Level 4 planet.

Wishes to use the toilet, is pointed to shed outside.

Needs to turn on a light, is handed a kerosene lantern and box of matches.

Wants to heat up some rations. Is pointed to stove and wood pile, and aforesaid matches and paper.

Wishes to use a form of mechanical transportation, is shown brand new, late model ground car, the 1893 Duryea Automobile.

Just to show I am not making the car up, see the following publication on Project Gutenberg.

The 1893 Duryea Automobile In the Museum of History and Technology

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/30055/30055-h/30055-h.htm

 

[creativehum]

Make sense, but I wonder how far Travellers travel. Travelling is so expensive, that I'm under the assumption that Travellers really don't go that far away from their homeworlds, galatically speaking. Say...within two subsectors from their home subsector.

I think many Player Character travellers, at least, do Working Passage on their way out to "The Fringes" -- whatever that means to a particular setting and if that's where the setting of play is.

And depending on what prior services one is using it is more than possible that all PCs end up mustering out far from home. Book 1 prior we icee make perfect sense for this. (This is not to say ALL members of a military service end up at "The Fringe" or far from home. But I consider PCs as special cases -- a rare breed who have caught "the bug" of travelling and continue to do so.)

 

[ffilz]

I think many Player Character travellers, at least, do Working Passage on their way out to "The Fringes" -- whatever that means to a particular setting and if that's where the setting of play is.

And depending on what priori service paths one is using it is more than possible creation, if not all, PCs end up mustering out far from home. Book 1 prior we icee make perfect sense for this. (This is not to say ALL members of a military service end up at "The Fringe" or far from home. But I consider PCs as special cases -- a rare breed who have caught "the bug" of travelling and continue to do so.)

Yea, the two campaigns I've just started I mustered the PCs out on one of the worlds in the setting of play. One group has two Scouts, so they mustered out at a world with a Scout base, the other single player "group" has a Navy character, so mustering out at a world with a Navy base.

These worlds are set in a small portion of "The Imperium" at the edge of my setting of play (2+ subsectors, 18x13 hexes, 96 worlds).

Frank

 

[flykiller]

How is most of Mexico a ****hole when all the tourist enclaves operate at TL8?

(this seems to make my point) because the enclaves are enclaves. because mexico is what it is. because the mere presence of tech in limited areas does not change mexican capabilities or culture. now apply that concept across, not a border, but a parsec.

TL isn't a measure of local manufacturing only, TL isn't a measure of local usage only, and TL isn't a measure of imports only.

I'm quite familiar with and accepting of "lasers in the jungle", but ...

TL is a BLEND of all those things and several more.

... blending it negates the very concept of "planetary tech level".

consider rhylanor/porozlo. does porozlo build starships at tech 10, or 15? or at some other level?

The LBB says as much.

I'm not traveller-religious. if something is incoherent I'll ignore it or adjust it.

 

[aramis]

(this seems to make my point) because the enclaves are enclaves. because mexico is what it is. because the mere presence of tech in limited areas does not change mexican capabilities or culture. now apply that concept across, not a border, but a parsec.



I'm quite familiar with and accepting of "lasers in the jungle", but ...



... blending it negates the very concept of "planetary tech level".

consider rhylanor/porozlo. does porozlo build starships at tech 10, or 15? or at some other level?



I'm not traveller-religious. if something is incoherent I'll ignore it or adjust it.

No, blending doesn't negate it.

It provides a starting point for further expansion. It says, "This is the common quality of production locally," which is the singularly most common need for it - trade.

DGP subdivided TL into a bunch of factors; too many, in fact.

Still, the concept is good.
World TL being primary TL for high end manufacturing. (Sets relative prices for goods purchased locally and sets what goods can be locally sourced.) It's the one in the UWP.

The high common TL (what's readily available) and the Government TL (what the government) are likely to be higher; goverment TL is likely to be the highest TL within 6 Pc, or highest TL Industrial World within about 12 Pc.

Many worlds will have a low-common TL - a kind of floor - it's what the poor live by. The bigger the population, the more likely it is to be lower. (Pop/3 is the max reduction;

 

[flykiller]

Make sense, but I wonder how far Travellers travel. Travelling is so expensive, that I'm under the assumption that Travellers really don't go that far away from their homeworlds, galatically speaking.

heh. a return to mediaeval times, when most people never travelled further than 15 miles from where they were born.

"go to where the men speak vilani. then keep going until they speak something else."

 

[Whipsnade]

(this seems to make my point)

No, it doesn't. It makes my point.

because the enclaves are enclaves.

Exactly. Yet you've argued that Rhylanor retirees and imports should have raised Porozlo's TL despite tourist/retiree enclaves and imports not doing that to Mexico's TL.

because mexico is what it is. because the mere presence of tech in limited areas does not change mexican capabilities or culture. now apply that concept across, not a border, but a parsec.

I have. You, as illustrated by your own Rhylanor/ Porozlo example, have not.

I'm quite familiar with and accepting of "lasers in the jungle", but ...

No, you're not. There's a difference between experiential knowledge and propositional knowledge.

... blending it negates the very concept of "planetary tech level".

No, it doesn't. Mexico has it's own TL despite the fact that higher TL enclaves exist in a physical, operational, and virtual sense. Mexico has it's own TL despite higher TLs only being seconds away and not 168 hours.

consider rhylanor/porozlo.

I wish you would. It's your example after all.

does porozlo build starships at tech 10, or 15? or at some other level?

Porozlo builds starships at the TL requested by the buyer. Does Porozlo build everything needed to build a starship? Does Porozlo build everything needed to build everything needed to build a starship?

Vietnam manufactures millions of microchips. Stop a tiny selection of imports and Vietnam wouldn't manufacture a single chip. Remove a tiny number of expats employing higher TL knowledge, training, and techniques and Vietnam wouldn't build a single chip either.

What's Vietnam's TL? You're arguing that the presence of that wafer fab facility means it's higher than it is.

I'm not traveller-religious. if something is incoherent I'll ignore it or adjust it.

Neither am I. However TL - as written and as explained in the quote Mike shared - works.

 

[flykiller]

However TL - as written and as explained in the quote Mike shared - works.

(shrug) ok, cool.

 

[whartung]

And yet, Mexico produces some of the most advanced vehicles on the planet. Latest materials, latest technology, latest designs.

Of course much of material is imported. Most of the engineering is out of country. But the plants themselves, they're not dirt lots. They're advanced with the latest robots and other technologies that goes in to the design of a modern auto plant.

At the same time, it might not be surprising to see the workers huddled outside, squatting near a wall, eating their bean, tortilla, and meat lunches prepared at home in a cast iron pot. Why are they doing this? Because they're comfortable doing it. Of course, they're keeping up with Facebook on their handhelds at the same time.

 

[mike wightman]

I may get close to real world here - if it breaks the rules could the mods either give special dispensation or just delete the post.

That is a result of big business globalisation.
Manufacturers can ship the machinery to make stuff, the high TL bit to a poor country of low TL where the population will work for shiny beads.

The global company has the knowledge base, the manufacturing capacity - so are TL7.8

The third world country where they plonk their robot factory with a few hundred workers whose job is to work alongside the robots is TL6 or lower.

So in Traveller a megascorporation could plonk a TL15 maker facility on a TL10 without raising the world's native TL.

 

[Condottiere]

Globalization started with the Silk Road.

Before that, the Bronze Age established extensive trading networks, especially to facilitate the import of tin and copper.

The South Americans and East Asians bought warships from the Europeans, and actually, until recently, still did.

 

[kilemall]

I may get close to real world here - if it breaks the rules could the mods either give special dispensation or just delete the post.

That is a result of big business globalisation.
Manufacturers can ship the machinery to make stuff, the high TL bit to a poor country of low TL where the population will work for shiny beads.

The global company has the knowledge base, the manufacturing capacity - so are TL7.8

The third world country where they plonk their robot factory with a few hundred workers whose job is to work alongside the robots is TL6 or lower.

So in Traveller a megascorporation could plonk a TL15 maker facility on a TL10 without raising the world's native TL.

Which may be another reason why you have TL5 planets after 1000+ years of colonization- resources and profits can be extracted without bothering to incur the cost and maintenance to raise the level of the planet itself.

 

[whartung]

Well, this just speaks to the general rise in automation in all industries.

We're already in an dominantly automated manufacturing environment. We're to the point now that people fill in gaps that automation can not. People are the secondary resource, rather than the primary one.

One example of this is the plant that makes the bookshelves for Ikea. The Billy Bookcase series. There's a (as I understand it) single facility dedicated to just these bookcases. In comes particle board, out comes neatly stacked boxes of book case kits.

The people are there simply to service and maintain the machines. In this case, it's not clear to me that a manual workforce could suitably replace such a facility, regardless of how cheap the workforce is, not if you consider the speed and quality of the final product.

Consider how much of this planet does NOT make things. How manufacturing continues to consolidate. Transportation has become cheap enough to make moving the resources to the factories, and the finished goods back to the market, cheaper and more efficient than the old days when the factories followed the resources.

As I understand it, there was a very large furniture industry up in Michigan, because that's where the hardwood was. Now, most of it is gone, along with the furniture factories. I don't know, but it would not surprise me if the location most modern furniture factories have almost no relation to the location of the raw material. Other aspects dominate the equation.

Traveller was before the time of ubiquitous automation, and obviously doesn't try to address the societal impacts of the process.

With ubiquitous automation, only raw material and original engineering become the major costs of product manufacturing. Tooling will include not just the molds and such, but also the automation facility. But as "robots" become more adaptable, able to move around, able to "learn", etc. the less you need things like permanent assembly lines. Imaging the loader from Aliens, only automated. Or, instead of a full conveyer system moving vehicle chassis down the line, simply a powered cart. A powered cart that can be moved to any enclosed space simply by unloading them -- no need to build up the entire factory floor, rather it's just a bunch of "smart", off the shelf components that are nimble and fluid.

Such tooling becomes re-usable and configureable. Rather than having a factory dedicated to bookshelves, now it can make many kinds of furniture: safely, efficiently, 24/7.

All this points to where the local TL is less and less necessary. When stuff can be efficiently imported, the only reason to go off planet is for real estate. Pick a wilderness world, lay down a factory, bring in a few technical supervisors, then open up the "catering" business to supply the crews. Rotate them in and out with 1-2 month shifts, like an oil rig. Hardest part is the 2 week comm lag.

 

[Condottiere]

Nationalistic economic policy may mandate that high quality timber cannot be exported, but must be manufactured into furniture and fittings in country.

That allows local factories to move up the value added chain, while it could decrease manufacturing costs, and possibly transportation charges.

 

[aramis]

All this points to where the local TL is less and less necessary. When stuff can be efficiently imported, the only reason to go off planet is for real estate. Pick a wilderness world, lay down a factory, bring in a few technical supervisors, then open up the "catering" business to supply the crews. Rotate them in and out with 1-2 month shifts, like an oil rig. Hardest part is the 2 week comm lag.

Except that, for what it's worth, the Traveller universe has actually surprisingly bad importing. It's slow. I can get a new car customised* from Korea in 6 weeks if I have the money. Making the same deal between Wypoc and Regina is at least 4.2 weeks... 1 week for the request to get there, another for the response, a third for the cash, a day or two at the plant, and another week to get it to wypoc.‡ While that's shorter, I don't know until it shows up that they got the money... And it's likely to take 3-4 weeks to get it into the cue. Meanwhile, if I really throw money at it, I can have it real world in 4 days...

* I pick all the colors, the radio, the fabrics, and my choice of a variety of features, on a standard chassis with one of several standard engines and transmissions.
‡ Why one would need a customized car on Wypoc is beyond me. But I know the Traveller astrography there. And it damned well better be electric or fusion+...

 

[mike wightman]

Well, this just speaks to the general rise in automation in all industries.

snip of all good points..

True but in a way not quite.
Somewhere there has to be the technology to build the components for the robots,
There have to be experts who can design, build and maintain the robots.

Multinational companies are TL7.8 because they have the experts. Countries that have the universities and technical colleges that can churn out the critical mass of experts.

Every country in the world can access the information thanks to the interwebs, training people to master it is another thing entirely.

There is also the consequence of automation, you lose craftsmen.

Here in the north east of England we used to have a world leading ship building industry.

Most experts admit there is no longer the skill base to open up even one shipyard without bringing expert craftsmen from abroad to train apprentices to build ships.

The OTU has a millennial Imperium that has been TL12 since the start, TL14 for over 400 years and TL15 for over 100. High TL stuff in everywhere, expertise in high TL stuff is everywhere, the hard part is explaining why every world isn't a TL12 minimum,

A question that has long vexed me is why would any world in the Imperium invest or develop a fossil fuel based economy?