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Settler equipment list

But there must be a reason for the CO2 and H2O to merge. They don't just spontaneously react with each other. Other chemicals - reaction catalysts - must be present.

If the athmosphere has too hight CO2 content, raindrops will merge with it, and seas will surely have long ago. The catalysts speed reactions, but in this case there have been time enough to merge. Just have the CO2 disolved in water and it will begin to acidify it.

Even in late 20 century Earth, rain began to have a very mild acidic taint in zones where CO2 concentration was higher (cities, etc), and it was not near to what would be needed to mark an atmosphere as tainted, in UPP terms...
 
good point ..while the high tech goods are readily available ..tech 4 is what the infrastructure can support without outside assitance ...or importing ..and not all worlds are going to have the high tech infrastructure ..that doesnt mean you cant buy the imported stuff ..that takes weeks to arrive ..the tech level means what can be produced by the local yockles with no outside assistance ie if the imperium collapses ...or trade is cut off by an intersteller war...

Yes, and I firmly believe that any world within the Imperium would have that local infrastructure at TL 9 before factoring in the trade and such. And that'd be the results of 500 years of interstellar contact and trade.
 
New Mexico is among the larger of the U.S. states - 5th after Alaska, Texas, California and Montana. It is also ranked among the smaller states for population - 36th at present, with a population of about 1.8 million, smaller than a lot of cities. Almost a third of that population is concentrated in or around the state's one major city, Albuquerque. I think we're about 45th for population density.

A prospective land buyer in New Mexico would be faced with an odd paradox - while the state is large and thinly populated, there's really not a whole heck of a lot of land worth buying that someone doesn't already own. The Federal government owns huge chunks of the state, using those large areas for missile testing and training of pilots, or just to site research facilities far from anyone who might bother them. (We make the nuclear pits which form the cores in the nation's nuclear arsenal.) The natives have reservations here and there, in some cases setting hard boundaries on the directions in which a town or city can grow. There are stretches of agricultural land following the Rio Grande and some of the other rivers, and the ranchers own the bulk of what land is left that will support anything. There are resource-rich areas: oil wells, mining - we have one of the largest open-pit mines in the world. Beyond that are vast empty patches owned by the state, huge amounts of empty land, but you can indeed homestead them and claim them as your own eventually - if you want to own a dry patch of waterless land many miles from the nearest dirt road, much less settlement. If I recall, building a dirt road out to your patch is one of the ways you can use to show you're improving your land in order to qualify for the homestead.

It is indeed possible to have lots and lots of open land and find that very little of it is either available or worth having. If they found a good patch at a decent price, more power to them.


It should be noted that when New Mexico was TL4, most of New Mexico was available under the Homestead Act, and was free for the taking.

It should also be noted that New Mexico has a population 2/3 that of Forboldn, with about half the usable land area. In other words, a higher population density than Forboldn, by about 33%.

And it should be noted that a better analog to Forboldn might be the Pacific Ocean, in that you can only live in certain, widely scattered places. Except that you can use ships to move around in the Pacific, and don't have that option on Forboldn. Plus you can breathe the air between islands, unlike the land between plateaus
 
You're assuming that there absolutely has to be a cheaper alternative. I'm not sure what you base that assumption on.

I base that assumption on the assumption (perhaps incorrect in this case) that the government of Forboldn WANTS new settlers. One does not encourage settlers by placing barriers to entry. Instead, one lowers the barriers to entry so as to make homesteading seem like a good idea to people who would otherwise just go on with their lives, or go somewhere else.

And the colony organizers didn't tell them any such thing. They told them that once the colony had been established and survived for a few years, they would all lease land to latecomers and become rich on the rents and from the sale of city plots.

So, the organizers lied to them? Okay, I can buy that.

Note that noone is going to get rich doing that when you're paying large sums up front for the real estate. Especially since the people building the hypothetical city can just buy their own land from the government without wasting time buying your land.

So if the government did have a way to enforce the claim, your objection would be answered?

My objection to having to buy the land would be answered. I'd still have the attitude that I'd rather settle somewhere that wanted settlers enough to provide unused land for free...


Well, there's your reason to buy instead of just homesteading. These colonists wanted more than 16 hectares each. They want to be landowners on a grand scale. And if the government does have a way to enforce its claim, it also has a way to protect the property rights that the settlers bought off it.

They're going to be landowners on a "grand scale" while having to spend millions just to get what amounts to a bare minimum homestead? How is that going to work? Remember, they have to prove the claim - which means putting to use every hectare they buy (or the government can reclaim it).

The only way the government is going to have the ability to enforce its claims and enforce property rights is troops. Which, given the difficulty of local transport, will be stationed locally, and supported by the local farmers. Not an ideal situation for someone looking for a new start.


No, but as someone suggested, there may be airships (Oh, why be coy, let me say what everybody knows anyway. Not mere airships, but ZEPPELINS!! :))

Make sure the zeps have enough fuel to travel both ways without refueling.
And while zeps are technologically feasible, the question "why bother building them?" comes to mind, from the government's point of view. After all, we don't need them locally, and most of the people are right here. Do we really get enough benefit from the small towns scattered hither and yon to be worth the cost of construction of zeps and garrisoning every small town on the planet?

I definitely don't want airships to be common. I don't want the settlers to be able to radio a taxi and zip over to Ashar City (the capital) for a visit. But I can see a few routes connecting the big cities (well, biggish cities -- there aren't really any big cities). And if any group would be able to support a (small) fleet of zeppelins, it would be the government. (It might even be able to import a few structural components to improve performance).

This "biggish" cities are probably all on the same plateau, and connected by rails.

There's a ranger-like organization called the Constabulary. There'll be a Constabulary outpost within a few hundred km, close enough to keep an occasional eye on what is going on. Not an ongoing presence, mind.

Where does the Constabulary outpost get its food? Ammo? Uniforms? Toilet paper? Staffing something in the back end of nowhere is not trivial, even with zeps to do the hauling.

Note that this question applies to anywhere the government has employees off the main plateau - which, note, is more than big enough that probably 90% of the 80% of the population that lives on the high plateaus live there.

In 1105 the bright promise of the spanking new government is one of the things that will attract the settlers. I admit that in 1120 things are looking quite a bit tarnished.

A spanking new government that thinks it owns every square foot of the planet, even otherwise empty plateaus thousands of km from the capital doesn't seem like a "bright promise" to me. More like a "banana republic in the making".

The current government is pretty recent. There hasn't been much demanding of land taxes for centuries. But there were other governments in the past, and why shouldn't the new government accept old land grants, much as some of the Spanish land grants were accepted by the US?

The heirs are paying the taxes to the new government until they unload them. Then the new guys are going to find that not only did they have to pay to settle, they have to pay every year to stay. Which changes the equations a bit when looking at viability of a colony.

Note, by the way, that the Spanish Land Grants that were recognized were the ones that had already been proved and were still occupied. Grants to places that noone lived were ignored.


This place is facing populations that much smaller too. You don't need a galleon ful of people to deal with 200 civilians.

Guess that depends on how many TL12 firearms the civilians have, doesn't it?


A TL4 population with knowledge of thousands of years of history and contact with the rest of Charted Space is not really a close analogy of any historical society on Earth. I can't see the lack of any such analogy as being evidence that it couldn't exist.

True enough. And, as I said, you're the gm, and can do as you please.
But *I* wouldn't find the prospect of settling there all that appealing under the conditions you cite.
Hell, if all I wanted to do was get away from the city into a farming town, I'd just move to Brumaire (similar population, nicer atmosphere, more usable real estate, and closer to modern amenities). Or Harcourt - thin atmosphere, but still quite breathable, more land than Forboldn, even lower population...

And in case you're wondering, I'm talking about the other two habitable moons of the gas giant Regina is orbiting...

ZEPPELINS! :)

Not a big fan of the things myself, the picture of the Hindenburg comes to mind whenever I hear the word. But I can understand the appeal ;-)


Also, there are a few imported grav vehicles in Ashar City. They're expensive and there aren't many of them, and all the commercial ones are booked solid for months ahead, but I think the government might well have a few. (Well... in 1105 there might well not be any grav vehicles at all yet).

Realistically, if the government felt the urge to assert its sovereignty over ever square foot of usable real estate on the planet, then YES, they'd have grav vehicles in 1105. The superior utility more than makes up for the higher price.

Though actually a sensible government, trying to do what you want them to do here, would prefer a couple-three big sub-orbital transports. That way you have FAST access in meaningful amounts to faraway plateaus.

Which leaves you with the colony not quite as "on its own" as you seem to be suggesting is the objective.

On the other hand, looking at budgets, I have a hard time coming up with enough taxes to even pay for the zeps, much less grav vehicles. Assuming a "normal" level of government services.
Note that a "normal" level of government services is problematic at best. The USA includes things like a Navy and Air Force, both of which are useless on Forboldn, and frankly an Army is only useful to assert sovereignty on plateaus far from the central government - locally, the police should be more than enough, given the tiny population.
Plus there's the whole Social Security/Medicare thing, which isn't really a meaningful burden at TL4 (lifespan will suck, so Social Security will be more like its earliest days, when it was a trivial burden, and medicine is probably unreliable and inexpensive (you can't spend too much when there's not really much a doctor can do for you))...
 
Yes, and I firmly believe that any world within the Imperium would have that local infrastructure at TL 9 before factoring in the trade and such. And that'd be the results of 500 years of interstellar contact and trade.

If the World Builders Manual (MT) may serve us as a guide, the novelty TL for Forboldn would be 10-12 (I won't start again a discusion about Regina's TL ;)), as Regina is the nearest A starport system.
 
But there must be a reason for the CO2 and H2O to merge. They don't just spontaneously react with each other. Other chemicals - reaction catalysts - must be present.

Lightning does provide for that reaction sans catalysts.
 
And it should be noted that a better analog to Forboldn might be the Pacific Ocean, in that you can only live in certain, widely scattered places. Except that you can use ships to move around in the Pacific, and don't have that option on Forboldn. Plus you can breathe the air between islands, unlike the land between plateaus

You can use shuttles, or for a lower-tech alternative, zeppelins or hot-air balloons, to move between them at a high enough altitude.
 
Yes, and I firmly believe that any world within the Imperium would have that local infrastructure at TL 9 before factoring in the trade and such. And that'd be the results of 500 years of interstellar contact and trade.

We know you do, Jame. you told us so just a few posts ago on this very thread. I let it slide then in the interest of keeping things civil, but now that you're repeating yourself, I feel the urge to express dissatisfaction.

The thing is, as far as the OTU is concerned, you're wrong.

Let me repeat that: W R O N G.

It's just like me and pirates. I have grave doubts about the feasibility of piracy as a career. However, there is plenty of evidence that pirates exist and flourish in the OTU. And besides, pirates are fun (in a narrative sense). So I've used pirates myself and pushed aside my doubts.

In the same way, your personal beliefs to the contrary notwithstanding, many worlds in the Imperium have tech levels below TL9. We have scads of UWPs proving that beyond a shadow of doubt. And, frankly, having low, mid, and high tech tech worlds in addition to ultra-tech ones have more narrative potential than having only ultra-tech worlds. So that's the way I prefer it, however plausible it may or may not be.

So unless you can reconcile yourself to accepting that Forboldn has a tech level of 4, your comments are completely besides the point for this particular thread.

If you want to start another thread about minimum tech levels for Imperial worlds, feel free. But please, as a courtesy to me and the other people who are having an interesting and fruitful discussion, don't litter all over this one.


Hans
 
I'm rather fond of the idea of airships. I grew up about a mile away from the Sheds where the R-101 was built. (Such a large structure deserves a capital letter - google Cardington Sheds for images and you'll see why). Unless you insist on using hydrogen (why would you?) then they are probably very safe.

The colony would have a chance of sourcing helium locally without a high-tech infrastructure - it's found in the same sort of places you find natural gas and oil.

Okay, the (Helium) Macon crashed, but that was probably pilot error, and it took a long time to crash, so casualties were low. Even the R101 might have been safer if they'd spent more time on trials - iirc the success of the Barnes-Wallis designed R-100 meant there was a rush on the R-101.

You can do without airships and aircraft altogether if the colony has some kind of high-tech superstrong cables for cable cars between high points?

re: power source for the colony: A sealed nuclear power plant of the radioisotope thermoelectric generator type has possibilities - the main advantage is that you don't need skilled operators or a fuel cycle industry. The main disadvantage is that they remain harmful for a long time. Available at a much lower TL than fusion, and should be much cheaper (the USSR even used them for lighthouses).

You should get a couple of decades of power out of a RTG, which covers the tricky startup phase of the colony.

Some time ago I was reading about why some early American colonies failed while others didn't - I believe the main factor was the kind of people. Places with dreamers and half-starved petty thieves didn't do as well as those colonised by hard-working farmers. What a surprise!
 
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I base that assumption on the assumption (perhaps incorrect in this case) that the government of Forboldn WANTS new settlers. One does not encourage settlers by placing barriers to entry. Instead, one lowers the barriers to entry so as to make homesteading seem like a good idea to people who would otherwise just go on with their lives, or go somewhere else.

In 1105 the government of Forboldn is expecting the Imperium to ship in a million new settlers from 1110 to 1120. In 1120 it is plagued by the fact that 900,000 of that one million are job-less, the planned infrastructure to employ them not having been built.

So, the organizers lied to them? Okay, I can buy that.

The organizers told tham what they expected to happen. That once they were up and running, there would be plenty of labor available to sublet farms.

Note that noone is going to get rich doing that when you're paying large sums up front for the real estate. Especially since the people building the hypothetical city can just buy their own land from the government without wasting time buying your land.

New settlers who can afford to buy their own land can do so. Settlers who can't afford to buy their own land will want to rent.

They're going to be landowners on a "grand scale" while having to spend millions just to get what amounts to a bare minimum homestead? How is that going to work? Remember, they have to prove the claim - which means putting to use every hectare they buy (or the government can reclaim it).

Where did you get the bare minimum homesteads from? It's going to work by them buying a lot more than bare minimum homesteads. I specifically said that they were buying more than just a standard homestead apiece for their money.

As for what it means to prove the land, it means what the contract with the government of Forboldn says it means, not what the government of a nation on Terra 3000 years ago said it meant. Perhaps it says that proving the land means putting 1/10th of the ten-farm landhold each of them bought under the plow. Or even 2% of a 50-farm landhold.

Make sure the zeps have enough fuel to travel both ways without refueling.

Until and unless someone provides me with rules for constructing and operating zeppelins, I thik I'm just going to take for granted that the logistics have been worked out. Unless it becomes dramatically useful to posit that something isn't working, of course.

And while zeps are technologically feasible, the question "why bother building them?" comes to mind, from the government's point of view. After all, we don't need them locally, and most of the people are right here. Do we really get enough benefit from the small towns scattered hither and yon to be worth the cost of construction of zeps and garrisoning every small town on the planet?

Since it enables the government to sell empty land and tax people all over the world, I'll say the answer obviously is 'yes'.

And you keep assuming that almost everyone of the 80% who can't breathe without filter masks below the highlands are located on the Wueldn Plateau. But the early history of Forboldn has groups moving away to places all over the world. A majority of Forboldians live on Wueldn, but a sizable part lives elsewhere.

This "biggish" cities are probably all on the same plateau, and connected by rails.

Not all of them. See above and below.

Where does the Constabulary outpost get its food? Ammo? Uniforms? Toilet paper? Staffing something in the back end of nowhere is not trivial, even with zeps to do the hauling.

Where did the forts on the Great Plain get their food, ammo, uniforms, toilet paper?

Note that this question applies to anywhere the government has employees off the main plateau - which, note, is more than big enough that probably 90% of the 80% of the population that lives on the high plateaus live there.

Call it 60% of the 80%.

A spanking new government that thinks it owns every square foot of the planet, even otherwise empty plateaus thousands of km from the capital doesn't seem like a "bright promise" to me. More like a "banana republic in the making".

It doesn't think, it knows.

But *I* wouldn't find the prospect of settling there all that appealing under the conditions you cite.

Or more accurately under the rather sketchy outline of conditions that I cite fleshed out by a whole heap of assumptions on your part.

Hell, if all I wanted to do was get away from the city into a farming town, I'd just move to Brumaire (similar population, nicer atmosphere, more usable real estate, and closer to modern amenities). Or Harcourt - thin atmosphere, but still quite breathable, more land than Forboldn, even lower population...

And in case you're wondering, I'm talking about the other two habitable moons of the gas giant Regina is orbiting...

That you assume would not have drawbacks that make them less appealing as colonization goals. No, I have no idea what those drawbacks might be. But since the Regina system has had space travel for 1000 years, it seems a reasonable assumption that Harcourt and Brumaire have pretty much all the settlers they can support (Or that they want).


Hans
 
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You can do without airships and aircraft altogether if the colony has some kind of high-tech superstrong cables for cable cars between high points?

A world I created for a different setting has a system exactly like that (but it would have been a few TLs higher than 4).
 
Agout the Zeppelins, we must also take into account that with a dense atmosphere, their lifting power will be more than on a standard one, unlike the grav vehicles, whose lifting power will be effectively less due to the increased gravity (1.11 G, according to wiki).

This coupled with the capability of being locally supported, makes them a good choice (IMHO) for 'quick' transport among settlements.

You can do without airships and aircraft altogether if the colony has some kind of high-tech superstrong cables for cable cars between high points?

I see several problems to this suggestion:

- as Forboldn is not high tech, that will make all its transport net dependent on offplanet mainetenance, so probably becoming quite expensive (aside from the initial expense to build it, probably quite larger than a few zeppelins). And if you must expand it, the efficiency of Zeppelins increases.

- depending on the distance, just the planet curvature will avoid you to build it (while I guess I'm talking about quite long distances here...)

- with a dense atmosphere, I guess winds and storms could pose a sizable danger on such an infrastructure. While Zeppelins may avoid storm areas, this cables would be fixed and so had to endure them.

- like railroad vs cars/planes, you're tied to fixed routes

- very vulnerable to attacks (remember most settlements are, at best, mistrusting of others). Unlike railroads, one such sabotages will be a major endeavour to repair (and will need offplanet help once again).

In conclusion, among those two possibilities, on a TL4 planet, I'd go for the Zeppelins.
 
Why are we building balloons? What's wrong with a good ol' fashioned steam-powered railroad? Should work at least for those regions where there's a reasonable water supply.
 
Why are we building balloons? What's wrong with a good ol' fashioned steam-powered railroad? Should work at least for those regions where there's a reasonable water supply.

This is about a world where only isolated plateaus are habitable. The railroads would have to be built on bridges, which would not be maintainable because the bottoms of the poles are inaccessible for anyone without a "submarine"-like-something. Which TL4 cultures don't have.
 
This is about a world where only isolated plateaus are habitable. The railroads would have to be built on bridges, which would not be maintainable because the bottoms of the poles are inaccessible for anyone without a "submarine"-like-something. Which TL4 cultures don't have.

It's not quite as inaccessible as that. Filter masks allow baseline humans to breathe at lower altitudes; it's just that most people prefer to make their home where they can breathe without artificial aid. Some people have a higher than normal tolerance for CO2 and are able to survive at lower altitudes and are spread out across the rest of the planet.

But the population is quite low. In 1105 it is around 2.5 million, of which 2 million live in the highlands, 60% on the Wueldn Plateau, the rest in other highland areas (The 3.2 million figure is as of 1117 after the Forboldn Project has shipped in another 700,000). So labor-intensive projects like railroads are confined to relatively short stretches between relatively big towns. Basically on the Wueldn Plateau and one line running down a valley to the most settled midland region, close to the plateau.

I have no idea how big a population you need to support a zeppelin, so I intend that they be relatively rare and be vague about their sizes (Unless someone can provide me with some data on the subject).


Hans
 
I have no idea how big a population you need to support a zeppelin

To build and support an airship you need a building big enough to fit it in, plus enough people to build it.

In the UK, this meant RNAS Howden, RNAS Pulham or RAF Cardington: A hangar about 700' long and 130' tall, gas storage etc, a couple of thousand people (you could probably get away with a lot less once your airship is built, and at higher TL), a firm such as Shorts Brothers, and a housing estate for the workers such as Shortstown.

All the proper names here have their own wikipedia entries.
 
The actual cost of an airship is quite low, especially if trading with higher TL suppliers. Helium is very cheap once you have a nuclear industry, and isn't that expensive with a gas/oil industry. Hydrogen's basically free once you have a decent electricity supply and is safer than many people think. The cloth would best be made by a high TL supplier and would be incredibly cheap - like supermarket shopping bags, almost too cheap to measure. Your biggest expenses would be training and crew salaries - it's not a good idea to save too much money on this.

Fuel costs are low - you can use marine diesel engines (but with aluminium or light alloy parts), and these are incredibly fuel efficient. Moving cargo by airship should be almost as cheap as by rail, and much cheaper than heavier than air flight or road haulage.

You can probably take advantage of "trade winds" and run with very little fuel use on many routes.
 
The actual cost of an airship is quite low, especially if trading with higher TL suppliers.
The value of TL4 credits is very low, which I use as one reason why Forboldn hasn't long ago imported enough offworld technology to bootstrap themselves. I don't want to get into a discussion about how plausible that is. If Forboldn is TL4 after centuries of contact with the rest of Charted Space, it isn't importing offworld goods in large quantities.

Some key components that improve performance drastically compared to the cost is conceivable, but by and large I'm going with Forboldian airships being built on Forboldn from locally produced subcomponents.

It's also more fun that way.


Hans
 
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