Shipboard Planetary Destructors

[ChaserCaffey]

Re: Planetary Meson Screens

Because I know you all care, I did some FF&S1 calculations on these things. The results are under TNE, which I know doesn't cross over well, but it's pretty much all I have. My one somewhat questionable assumption here was that the entire planet had to be shielded, but it seemed that given the previous posts on the thread had good reasons why leaving any part of your planet unshielded could be used against you to pretty good effect.

I don't know how (or even if) a HG Factor-T meson gun converts over to TNE, so I decided to go for a screen that would shield the entire planet with a PV of 253. This is the same as the screen aboard a Midu Agashaam class destroyer, and would protect the world against bombardment from, say, meson guns in the 1000-Mj range. For comparison, that's about the output of the particle accelerator on a Chrysanthemum DE.

According to http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/KatherineMalfucci.shtml, the volume of the Earth (which we'll use as a reference) is 1.084 x 10^15 cubic meters, or about 7.743 x 10^13 displacement tons. This is seven orders of magnitude above a Gigantic target, the largest listed in the FF&S1 book, which is 1.0 x 10^6 dtons. Since the target size modifier is 16 for a Gigantic target and doubles with every increase in size code, we can perform seven more doublings and get a target size multiplier of 2048.

So, at TL-14, a PV 253 meson screen for an Earth-sized planet would require 26,753 MW of power, have a volume of 535,060 m3, a mass of 401,295 tons, an antenna area of 267,530 m2, and a price of 53.506 BCr. 1003 people would be needed to crew it, and another 250 to maintain it. The fusion reactor plant that would be needed to supply its power would be another 26,753 tons, cost another 1.78 BCr, and require another 892 people to run and maintain it.

In other words, we're talking about a pretty substantial construction project here, about the size of a typical skyscraper complex but with a much higher cost for the machinery itself. Note that this doesn't count the extra space that would have to be built in for controls (2,150 workstations adds up) and for maintainance passages.

Now, that will defend your world against a DE-powered meson gun. If someone has any idea what kind of Mj output a factor-T meson gun has, let me know and I'll figure out what shielding your planet from *that* would require. I think it's apparent, however, that (at least under FF&S1 rules) building a planetary meson screen generator would be a major undertaking for a world, and would probably absorb such a large portion of the planetary defense budget that it would significantly weaken the planet's other defenses.

Hey, that's what we use nukes for- drop one on the generator!

 

[ChaserCaffey]

Re: Planetary Meson Screens

Because I know you all care, I did some FF&S1 calculations on these things. The results are under TNE, which I know doesn't cross over well, but it's pretty much all I have. My one somewhat questionable assumption here was that the entire planet had to be shielded, but it seemed that given the previous posts on the thread had good reasons why leaving any part of your planet unshielded could be used against you to pretty good effect.

I don't know how (or even if) a HG Factor-T meson gun converts over to TNE, so I decided to go for a screen that would shield the entire planet with a PV of 253. This is the same as the screen aboard a Midu Agashaam class destroyer, and would protect the world against bombardment from, say, meson guns in the 1000-Mj range. For comparison, that's about the output of the particle accelerator on a Chrysanthemum DE.

According to http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/KatherineMalfucci.shtml, the volume of the Earth (which we'll use as a reference) is 1.084 x 10^15 cubic meters, or about 7.743 x 10^13 displacement tons. This is seven orders of magnitude above a Gigantic target, the largest listed in the FF&S1 book, which is 1.0 x 10^6 dtons. Since the target size modifier is 16 for a Gigantic target and doubles with every increase in size code, we can perform seven more doublings and get a target size multiplier of 2048.

So, at TL-14, a PV 253 meson screen for an Earth-sized planet would require 26,753 MW of power, have a volume of 535,060 m3, a mass of 401,295 tons, an antenna area of 267,530 m2, and a price of 53.506 BCr. 1003 people would be needed to crew it, and another 250 to maintain it. The fusion reactor plant that would be needed to supply its power would be another 26,753 tons, cost another 1.78 BCr, and require another 892 people to run and maintain it.

In other words, we're talking about a pretty substantial construction project here, about the size of a typical skyscraper complex but with a much higher cost for the machinery itself. Note that this doesn't count the extra space that would have to be built in for controls (2,150 workstations adds up) and for maintainance passages.

Now, that will defend your world against a DE-powered meson gun. If someone has any idea what kind of Mj output a factor-T meson gun has, let me know and I'll figure out what shielding your planet from *that* would require. I think it's apparent, however, that (at least under FF&S1 rules) building a planetary meson screen generator would be a major undertaking for a world, and would probably absorb such a large portion of the planetary defense budget that it would significantly weaken the planet's other defenses.

Hey, that's what we use nukes for- drop one on the generator!

 

[aramis]

I can't tell you the output. I'll give the stats as listed in T20

Factor 27 (thus 270m; oops...I forgot factors 0-9 when I figured burst size, last time):
7000Td (98000kL), 1200EP (300GW) GCr1, TL15.

I think you can reverse engineer from that.

 

[aramis]

I can't tell you the output. I'll give the stats as listed in T20

Factor 27 (thus 270m; oops...I forgot factors 0-9 when I figured burst size, last time):
7000Td (98000kL), 1200EP (300GW) GCr1, TL15.

I think you can reverse engineer from that.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by ChaserCaffey:
Hey, that's what we use nukes for- drop one on the generator!

Which would be hidden deep underground, along with, the meson screen and the nuclear damper which would stop the nukes working as well

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by ChaserCaffey:
Hey, that's what we use nukes for- drop one on the generator!

Which would be hidden deep underground, along with, the meson screen and the nuclear damper which would stop the nukes working as well

 

[mike wightman]

If you haven't seen it before, this link could be quite interesting for this topic

 

[mike wightman]

If you haven't seen it before, this link could be quite interesting for this topic

 

[jappel]

I have been working on a LEXX type craft, but I need a planet smasher weapon.

Does it come complete with Xev?

Hmm, you're looking for actual planet-munching, split-the-crust-and-vent-the-mantle stuff, not your mundane sterilize-down-to-bedrock level of mayhem. Might I suggest anti-matter? A missle with a burrowing submunition warhead packing a total conversion bomb might do the trick.

As Sigg points out, disintegrators (apparently an offshoot of nuclear damper technology) appear at high TLs in MT. But for a CT antimatter reference, look no further than good ol' Adventure 1, Kinunir, and the "contraterrene" matter in the Shionthy belt.

- John

 

[jappel]

I have been working on a LEXX type craft, but I need a planet smasher weapon.

Does it come complete with Xev?

Hmm, you're looking for actual planet-munching, split-the-crust-and-vent-the-mantle stuff, not your mundane sterilize-down-to-bedrock level of mayhem. Might I suggest anti-matter? A missle with a burrowing submunition warhead packing a total conversion bomb might do the trick.

As Sigg points out, disintegrators (apparently an offshoot of nuclear damper technology) appear at high TLs in MT. But for a CT antimatter reference, look no further than good ol' Adventure 1, Kinunir, and the "contraterrene" matter in the Shionthy belt.

- John

 

[ChaserCaffey]

Originally posted by Aramis:
I can't tell you the output. I'll give the stats as listed in T20

Factor 27 (thus 270m; oops...I forgot factors 0-9 when I figured burst size, last time):
7000Td (98000kL), 1200EP (300GW) GCr1, TL15.

I think you can reverse engineer from that.

Okay, here goes.


(Note: this is somewhat shaky on the reverse engineering. It would help if you had the short range of the gun in kilometers, but posting that much might not be fair use.)

Assuming a standard ROF of 10 shots per space combat turn, an input of 300,000 MW would yield an input energy of 54,000,000 Mj required for every shot, or a discharge energy of 10,800,000 Mj. Assuming once again we're firing at short range, that yields a damage rating of 16,432.

Great Strephon's Shorts.

Assuming that we need a meson screen of equal PV (which would make it a Difficult roll to intercept a given shot, which a decent crew could probably make), and using the size multiplier from my last post, we get the following values for the screen at TL-15:

Volume: 1,728,067,994 m3. If the machinery is a cube, it will be 1200 meters on a side.
Mass: 1,296,050,995 tons.
Antenna Area: 864,033,997 m2, or a dish with a radius of 16.59 kilometers.
Cost: 172.81 TCr
Energy Requirement: 86,403,400 MW
Crew Requirement: 2,592,102 crew
Maintainance Crew: 518,420

The reactor required to power it would have the following size:

Volume: 14,400,567 m3
Mass: 28,801,133 tons
Price: 2.88 TCr
Engineering and Maint Crew: 587,543
Fuel Requirement: 1,440,057 m3/year, or 164.28 m3 per hour.

To which we can only say: Great Cleon and Norris playing a drinking game. That's a lot of *stuff*

I think from this we can see that it's a possible project, but only the richest worlds would even dream of attempting it- it's going to cost hundreds of trillions of credits, and require about 3.5 million crewers to make it work and supply it with power. As for volume and mass, I don't know what to compare those volumes to, except that you'd have to build the machinery, house the crew and their families, and have the support mechanisms to feed them all and keep services running. You're probably looking at having, say, Manhatten Island as your crew quarters, with Long Island completely covered with the machinery of the screen. That way, you can use Long Island Sound as your fuel source and emergency cooling sink.

In general, though, of the "standard" Traveller technologies, really big meson guns still have my vote. Maybe I just like the idea of blasting fault lines too much, despite the fact that it won't work on every world.

 

[ChaserCaffey]

Originally posted by Aramis:
I can't tell you the output. I'll give the stats as listed in T20

Factor 27 (thus 270m; oops...I forgot factors 0-9 when I figured burst size, last time):
7000Td (98000kL), 1200EP (300GW) GCr1, TL15.

I think you can reverse engineer from that.

Okay, here goes.


(Note: this is somewhat shaky on the reverse engineering. It would help if you had the short range of the gun in kilometers, but posting that much might not be fair use.)

Assuming a standard ROF of 10 shots per space combat turn, an input of 300,000 MW would yield an input energy of 54,000,000 Mj required for every shot, or a discharge energy of 10,800,000 Mj. Assuming once again we're firing at short range, that yields a damage rating of 16,432.

Great Strephon's Shorts.

Assuming that we need a meson screen of equal PV (which would make it a Difficult roll to intercept a given shot, which a decent crew could probably make), and using the size multiplier from my last post, we get the following values for the screen at TL-15:

Volume: 1,728,067,994 m3. If the machinery is a cube, it will be 1200 meters on a side.
Mass: 1,296,050,995 tons.
Antenna Area: 864,033,997 m2, or a dish with a radius of 16.59 kilometers.
Cost: 172.81 TCr
Energy Requirement: 86,403,400 MW
Crew Requirement: 2,592,102 crew
Maintainance Crew: 518,420

The reactor required to power it would have the following size:

Volume: 14,400,567 m3
Mass: 28,801,133 tons
Price: 2.88 TCr
Engineering and Maint Crew: 587,543
Fuel Requirement: 1,440,057 m3/year, or 164.28 m3 per hour.

To which we can only say: Great Cleon and Norris playing a drinking game. That's a lot of *stuff*

I think from this we can see that it's a possible project, but only the richest worlds would even dream of attempting it- it's going to cost hundreds of trillions of credits, and require about 3.5 million crewers to make it work and supply it with power. As for volume and mass, I don't know what to compare those volumes to, except that you'd have to build the machinery, house the crew and their families, and have the support mechanisms to feed them all and keep services running. You're probably looking at having, say, Manhatten Island as your crew quarters, with Long Island completely covered with the machinery of the screen. That way, you can use Long Island Sound as your fuel source and emergency cooling sink.

In general, though, of the "standard" Traveller technologies, really big meson guns still have my vote. Maybe I just like the idea of blasting fault lines too much, despite the fact that it won't work on every world.

 

[ChaserCaffey]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ChaserCaffey:
Hey, that's what we use nukes for- drop one on the generator!

Which would be hidden deep underground, along with, the meson screen and the nuclear damper which would stop the nukes working as well </font>[/QUOTE]Hence the smiley. Oooh, ooh, we could drop a near-C rock on the screen...

Okay...I smiled when I said it...everyone please put down the FGMPs...

*backs away*

 

[ChaserCaffey]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ChaserCaffey:
Hey, that's what we use nukes for- drop one on the generator!

Which would be hidden deep underground, along with, the meson screen and the nuclear damper which would stop the nukes working as well </font>[/QUOTE]Hence the smiley. Oooh, ooh, we could drop a near-C rock on the screen...

Okay...I smiled when I said it...everyone please put down the FGMPs...

*backs away*

 

[mike wightman]

Near-c rocks would do it

 

[mike wightman]

Near-c rocks would do it

 

[jarednoble]

_Leaving Lurk mode_

An interesting thread - I especially like the idea of targetting fault-lines...very clever.

Someone brought up one of my pet peeves...Deep-site meson guns (DSMG for convenience). I never played or owned any TNE materials, but the first time I ever read about DSMG was in a _horribly_ written TNE novel, based on the premise that there was a virus controlled DSMG that some group of adventurers has to take out. It really was one of the worst pieces of SF drek I have ever had the misfortune to read - but that was the book - my pet peeve is actually the _Concept_.

Many people, including some on this board, make reference to the HARD(ish) S-F basis in traveller - but the DSMG fails this test.

Review of Meson gun concept:
2 converging high-energy particle beams collide. Based on the particles involved and their energy-levels and charges, any number of particles are created. By tuning your inputs correctly, you can create Mesons - useful for 2 reasons:
1) They have very weak interactions with standard matter, passing through most mattter without losing energy - this is how you shoot from underground, bypass armor, etc.
2) They have a limited lifespan, which varies in part with their created energy levels, and their velocity can also be controlled with careful manipulation of the input beams. When their lifespan is up, they tend to come apart in a shower of other particles and radiation - these DO interact with normal matter. If you can adjust your attack so this occurs inside your target ship, you have succesfully placed the main strength of your weapon inside your enemy, instead of wasting much of the energy on penetration...
Example: If this lifespan is 10 milliseconds and the velocity is .1c, that is .1 x 3x10^8 m/s*.01, or 3x10^5 m/s - that's a range of 300 km.

Sounds nice, doesn't it? Unfortunately, everyone seems to misunderstand or gloss over the problems with point #2.
A) The lifespan of these Mesons is not a hard-and-fast thing. It is a half-life. People seem to think that this means at a range of 300km (from the example above) all these mesons suddenly degenerate into a cascade of other particles, releasing tons of energy. They don't.

About half-life:
A half-life is the time it takes for 1/2 the original sample to undergo it's change, in this case degenerate into other particles. Assuming a sufficient quantity of mesons, and there had better be if this is to be a major weapon, there are mesons degenerating at every point along of the path of travel. The math may work out that a majority tend is clustered, but the path of the beam (and it really is a beam, now) is all part of the danger zone.

So everytime the DSMG fires, it is dumping a non-insignificant amount of energy into a trench leading from the point of origin directly to the target of fire - If there is enough energy it may actually vaporize good chunks of the ground - or leave them irradiated. If you are shooting though an atmosphere with enough energy to target and damage a ship in orbit, there is going to be a beam of heat, ionization, and radiation in the atmosphere that traces a perfect vector back to the source of the meson beam. Unless they have their sensors off, any ship in the vicinity is going to the the precise line your DSMG is on - the only thing they won't know is how deep.

Even without an atmosphere you will probably get a ground eruption where the beam breaks the surface - not as big a beacon, perhaps, but also not the invisible magic-explosion-from-nowhere.

Ok- enough ranting - I'lll return you to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[jarednoble]

_Leaving Lurk mode_

An interesting thread - I especially like the idea of targetting fault-lines...very clever.

Someone brought up one of my pet peeves...Deep-site meson guns (DSMG for convenience). I never played or owned any TNE materials, but the first time I ever read about DSMG was in a _horribly_ written TNE novel, based on the premise that there was a virus controlled DSMG that some group of adventurers has to take out. It really was one of the worst pieces of SF drek I have ever had the misfortune to read - but that was the book - my pet peeve is actually the _Concept_.

Many people, including some on this board, make reference to the HARD(ish) S-F basis in traveller - but the DSMG fails this test.

Review of Meson gun concept:
2 converging high-energy particle beams collide. Based on the particles involved and their energy-levels and charges, any number of particles are created. By tuning your inputs correctly, you can create Mesons - useful for 2 reasons:
1) They have very weak interactions with standard matter, passing through most mattter without losing energy - this is how you shoot from underground, bypass armor, etc.
2) They have a limited lifespan, which varies in part with their created energy levels, and their velocity can also be controlled with careful manipulation of the input beams. When their lifespan is up, they tend to come apart in a shower of other particles and radiation - these DO interact with normal matter. If you can adjust your attack so this occurs inside your target ship, you have succesfully placed the main strength of your weapon inside your enemy, instead of wasting much of the energy on penetration...
Example: If this lifespan is 10 milliseconds and the velocity is .1c, that is .1 x 3x10^8 m/s*.01, or 3x10^5 m/s - that's a range of 300 km.

Sounds nice, doesn't it? Unfortunately, everyone seems to misunderstand or gloss over the problems with point #2.
A) The lifespan of these Mesons is not a hard-and-fast thing. It is a half-life. People seem to think that this means at a range of 300km (from the example above) all these mesons suddenly degenerate into a cascade of other particles, releasing tons of energy. They don't.

About half-life:
A half-life is the time it takes for 1/2 the original sample to undergo it's change, in this case degenerate into other particles. Assuming a sufficient quantity of mesons, and there had better be if this is to be a major weapon, there are mesons degenerating at every point along of the path of travel. The math may work out that a majority tend is clustered, but the path of the beam (and it really is a beam, now) is all part of the danger zone.

So everytime the DSMG fires, it is dumping a non-insignificant amount of energy into a trench leading from the point of origin directly to the target of fire - If there is enough energy it may actually vaporize good chunks of the ground - or leave them irradiated. If you are shooting though an atmosphere with enough energy to target and damage a ship in orbit, there is going to be a beam of heat, ionization, and radiation in the atmosphere that traces a perfect vector back to the source of the meson beam. Unless they have their sensors off, any ship in the vicinity is going to the the precise line your DSMG is on - the only thing they won't know is how deep.

Even without an atmosphere you will probably get a ground eruption where the beam breaks the surface - not as big a beacon, perhaps, but also not the invisible magic-explosion-from-nowhere.

Ok- enough ranting - I'lll return you to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[mike wightman]

Helo Imix and welcome aboard

Interesting, but you missed out one other important fact - real world mesons don't behave like Traveller mesons, harmlessly passing through matter until they decay

 

[mike wightman]

Helo Imix and welcome aboard

Interesting, but you missed out one other important fact - real world mesons don't behave like Traveller mesons, harmlessly passing through matter until they decay