Size of the merchant fleet IYTU?

[rancke]

Maybe you are confusing microecon with macroecon.

Perhaps. I'm baffled that someone with economic training can believe that bank notes have any value in themselves.

(though I would still think someone would consider themselves wealthy if they had millions of Euros in Cash).

As long as they believe that people are willing to exchange goods and services for their money, sure. If people for one reason or another refuse to accept the money, how wealthy are they?

Currency is the most liquid of assets, one of the most important financial statements is the Statement of Cash Flows.

Currency that is still backed is an asset. The moment you can no longer spend them, they not an asset any more.

Let me try an example. The National Bank of Shionthy issues currency notes backed by a very hard currency: Antimatter. Stored in its vaults are antimatter enough to redeem all the bank notes it has issued on demand with the amount of anti-matter printed on them.

Shionthy is also under interdict. As part of the interdict, the Imperium prevents all transport of goods to and from the system. (As a result, anti-matter is really rare and really valuable in the Imperium; Cr100,000 per gram.)

Dajepi Ffumph is a native of Shionthy. By a strange chain of events he is transported to Regina with a sheaf of high-denomination Shionthian currency, enough to be exchanged for a kilo of antimatter at the National Bank.

How much wealth is he carrying? How many credits can he exchange his Shionthian currency for in a Reginan bank? If your answer is anything other than 'nothing', I'd like to hear why.

He also happens to carry a container with 10 grams of anti-matter in his pocket. How much wealth does that represent?

Do you get the point? The currency notes are worthless, because no one will be able to go to Shionthy and fetch anything of value. The anti-matter is worth a million credits. It has an intrinsic value; the currency doesn't.

The next day the interdict is lifted. How much are the bank notes worth now? Why the difference? Because now someone can go to Shionthy and buy goods for them and bring the goods back home.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Which suggests that - at least IYTU - if ansibles were introduced (as per my Ansibles in Traveller article of a few issues back), you'd see interstellar trade skyrocket, on the same basis.

Absolutely.

Opportunity cost is more than just the time vs price difference, but includes the surety factors...

"You have it? Great. Hold one."
Hasty typing on the data slate
"Put it on the next boat, and here's the IISS Cash Transfer order #..."​

This guy knows he's made a deal. (And if smart, recorded it to prove it.)

 

[Dragoner]

Perhaps. I'm baffled that someone with economic training can believe that bank notes have any value in themselves.


As long as they believe that people are willing to exchange goods and services for their money, sure. If people for one reason or another refuse to accept the money, how wealthy are they?


Currency that is still backed is an asset. The moment you can no longer spend them, they not an asset any more.

Let me try an example. The National Bank of Shionthy issues currency notes backed by a very hard currency: Antimatter. Stored in its vaults are antimatter enough to redeem all the bank notes it has issued on demand with the amount of anti-matter printed on them.

Shionthy is also under interdict. As part of the interdict, the Imperium prevents all transport of goods to and from the system. (As a result, anti-matter is really rare and really valuable in the Imperium; Cr100,000 per gram.)

Dajepi Ffumph is a native of Shionthy. By a strange chain of events he is transported to Regina with a sheaf of high-denomination Shionthian currency, enough to be exchanged for a kilo of antimatter at the National Bank.

How much wealth is he carrying? How many credits can he exchange his Shionthian currency for in a Reginan bank? If your answer is anything other than 'nothing', I'd like to hear why.

He also happens to carry a container with 10 grams of anti-matter in his pocket. How much wealth does that represent?

Do you get the point? The currency notes are worthless, because no one will be able to go to Shionthy and fetch anything of value. The anti-matter is worth a million credits. It has an intrinsic value; the currency doesn't.

The next day the interdict is lifted. How much are the bank notes worth now? Why the difference? Because now someone can go to Shionthy and buy goods for them and bring the goods back home.


Hans

The CrImp isn't commodity based, it is Fiat Money, same as the US Dollar, which is also the worlds reserve currency. Economists don't engage in philosophical arguments about the "intrinsic value" of a dollar, because to them it is worth exactly a dollar. I understand what you are trying to say, it is not germaine to the topic at hand.

 

[rancke]

The CrImp isn't commodity based, it is Fiat Money, same as the US Dollar, which is also the worlds reserve currency. Economists don't engage in philosophical arguments about the "intrinsic value" of a dollar, because to them it is worth exactly a dollar. I understand what you are trying to say, it is not germaine to the topic at hand.

The Crimp wouldn't be worth a tinker's curse if goods weren't being moved between systems in the Imperium. That's the relevance to the topic at hand, and very relevant it is.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

The Crimp wouldn't be worth a tinker's curse if goods weren't being moved between systems in the Imperium. That's the relevance to the topic at hand, and very relevant it is.


Hans

...and the CrImp has value and is very real measure of solvency by which corporations meet their financial obligations, same as the dollar. You could put a basket of goods together to get a relative CPI of areas of the Imperium, such as the Spinward Marches. This is all presumed in game, however, to do an actually database, examining each world, would be a monumental task. Using reality as an example, the largest share of the tonnage of goods moved, will be by the largest ship possible.

 

[MCEvans]

Just a money thought.

I have felt that paper currency is a faith currency. If the the two (or more) parties believe that the paper will pay for the goods or service it works. If not you have a start of an economic collapse. This is how the 2nd Imperium fell. Failure of belief in the monetary system. Now currency as hard metals (coinage) will always have value but that value is based on supply. That is why we call gold, silver, platinum and the like precious metals because they are rare.

Wealth just means that you have more assets than debits and that you know how to manage them. If you don't you just end up in debt at a higher level and can put on a good show.

 

[Tobias]

I have felt that paper currency is a faith currency.

Every currency is a faith currency.

That is why we call gold, silver, platinum and the like precious metals because they are rare.

Their value is not based on their rarity. Scandium, to take just one example, is much rarer than gold.

None of this is relevant to Hans' correct point: Actual wealth is the goods and services currency will buy. Moving these requires transports.

 

[aramis]

I have felt that paper currency is a faith currency. If the the two (or more) parties believe that the paper will pay for the goods or service it works. If not you have a start of an economic collapse. This is how the 2nd Imperium fell. Failure of belief in the monetary system. Now currency as hard metals (coinage) will always have value but that value is based on supply. That is why we call gold, silver, platinum and the like precious metals because they are rare.
.

Technically, as monies, they are called specie. And to be blunt, we know from spectrographic work on asteroids, once we can mine them, the precious metals suddenly are going to balloon in availability (and drop in price).

Further, most of the coinage metals are inherently valuable for their usefulness, which is what keeps their supply down. To use Tobias example, Scandium isn't in much demand, so it's price is lower than the much more readily found gold - but gold is used extensively in both jewelry and electronics, as well as having been common in dentistry.

precious metals are not precious because of rarity, but because of the combination of high utility and low availability.

 

[Dragoner]

I have felt that paper currency is a faith currency. If the the two (or more) parties believe that the paper will pay for the goods or service it works. If not you have a start of an economic collapse. This is how the 2nd Imperium fell. Failure of belief in the monetary system. Now currency as hard metals (coinage) will always have value but that value is based on supply. That is why we call gold, silver, platinum and the like precious metals because they are rare.

Wealth just means that you have more assets than debits and that you know how to manage them. If you don't you just end up in debt at a higher level and can put on a good show.

Economics is faith based as well (look at market collapses), the key synonym for faith is "trust", metallic currency has it own problems, as seen in the Betton Woods agreement for example. It lacks liquidity and one can lose control over their currency, such as with the Prussians countefeiting Polish money in the 18th century and collapsing their economy.

Wealth is rather a vague term, traditionally real wealth has been measured in property. Things like market value, solvency, profitability are more important to business.

Here is an interesting fact of shipping: shippers will ship at a loss, in order to not run empty (deadhead), because the loss is smaller.

 

[MCEvans]

Point taken

 

[robject]

Back to the game

U

Akerut in TTA running approx 50 5kt streamlined cargo haulers moving local and Vargr products in a subsector feels high to me, but it's there.
----Note also that to make most of the runs two or three 500 ton demountable tanks are installed in the cargo hold reducing its 2911 ton capacity by about 1/3 to 1/2 bringing it in line with the 2kt Imperiallines TI frontier transport.

Al Morai a sector wide line in TSMC runs 53 3kt unstreamlined cargo haulers and only service 51 worlds.

Good points.

Al Morai's freighters serve 51 worlds. Two ships at any given time are in maintenance or in reserve.

So, on a given week, the is a 50-50 chance that one of those freighters is at your world... And may be going 'outbound' or back towards Mora, take your pick.

That is low traffic for Al Morai.

Akerut is more significant. I don't remembered where those ships took the dust spice. To the nearest xboat link? Then Towers, perhaps. Or do the head towards the rimward edge of the subsector? If so, then halve the cargo capacity for spice and full those holds with imbalance items until you need jump-2.

 

[rancke]

Al Morai's freighters serve 51 worlds. Two ships at any given time are in maintenance or in reserve.

So, on a given week, the is a 50-50 chance that one of those freighters is at your world... And may be going 'outbound' or back towards Mora, take your pick.

That is low traffic for Al Morai.

IMTU Al Morai has those 53 J4 merchants. And they cover the part of their network that are four parsec links. In addition, they have J1, J2, and J3 merchants in numbers proportional to the number of one-, two-, and three-parsec links in their network.

I've got the actual numbers worked out somewhere, but I can't find the file offhand.

And routinely using J4 ships for one- and two-parsec links is sufficiently silly and profit-thrashing to let me argue 'discrepancy' and advocate a similar retcon for the OTU...


Hans

 

[Enoki]

I would think that there are some agreed on, at least in general principle, monitary units like say the Kugerand that can be found throughout known space. While these might have some local variance in value they would be more or less universally accepted and retain most or all of their value.

I use the term "sliver" and "light sliver" myself. Slivers are assumed to be some sort (not specifcally defined but sort of like Star Trek's pressed latnium) of precious material, most likely a rare metal, that can be traded as cash.
Slivers are defined as worth between about 1 and 5 thousand imperial credits while the light version is 1 to 5 hundred imperial credits.

These would then be traded into local currency or credits as applicable.

 

[Peter Schutze]

>Here is an interesting fact of shipping: shippers will ship at a loss, in order to not run empty (deadhead), because the loss is smaller.

as long as the transport price is higher than the extra fuel cost anyone in a transport industry will, including airliners .... thus middle passage, hrrmp I mean airline standby tickets etc

I wonder if large lines (ie not player run ships) offer "mystery flights" in the 3rd imperium ? A great occassional alternative when the players need to leave now! and are not quite down on their luck enough to resort to low passage

 

[BytePro]

Years ago I knew someone who took trips as a courier = he paid nothing to fly overseas. (Airlines wouldn't let baggage fly without a passenger.) Seems this isn't as prevalent anymore, but in Traveller, something similar might be available to avoid delays and third party handling of 'sensitive' items.

Also, ex-military could often fly free on military transports. Scheduling and accommodations not being optimal, of course.

 

[Dragoner]

>Here is an interesting fact of shipping: shippers will ship at a loss, in order to not run empty (deadhead), because the loss is smaller.

as long as the transport price is higher than the extra fuel cost anyone in a transport industry will, including airliners .... thus middle passage, hrrmp I mean airline standby tickets etc

I wonder if large lines (ie not player run ships) offer "mystery flights" in the 3rd imperium ? A great occassional alternative when the players need to leave now! and are not quite down on their luck enough to resort to low passage

The thing about Traveller, is that the fuel cost is the same laden and unladen, so there is much more incentive, to carry anything or anyone to fill the space. This can explain some goods that are not worth it to ship, like grain and cheap ores, that would get shipped anyways, just to offset costs.

 

[rancke]

The thing about Traveller, is that the fuel cost is the same laden and unladen, so there is much more incentive, to carry anything or anyone to fill the space. This can explain some goods that are not worth it to ship, like grain and cheap ores, that would get shipped anyways, just to offset costs.

Assuming that 1 DT of grain weighs 14,000 kilos and assuming that it costs CrImp1000 to ship it and assuming one CrImp is roughly equivalent to US$3.5, moving it one jump adds 25 cents per kilo to the cost. So shipping cheap stables a few parsecs can be worth it in itself.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Assuming that 1 DT of grain weighs 14,000 kilos and assuming that it costs CrImp1000 to ship it and assuming one CrImp is roughly equivalent to US$3.5, moving it one jump adds 25 cents per kilo to the cost. So shipping cheap stables a few parsecs can be worth it in itself.


Hans

Thing is, that 1Td of grain (and it's more likely about 10,000kg - see Brilliant Lances) (Wheat is on the heavy side at 60#/Bushel). 13.5kL grain is about 10,500kg. given the 10,000kg per 14kL guideline in BL, let's assume some larger packing losses, and merely 10,000kg per Td, as bulk cargo. (Break bulk means even smaller mass per Td due to packaging loss.)

You're taking grain at roughly Cr30 per metric ton, and selling it for roughly Cr130 pe metric ton.

One should note: in CT, spec goods buyers won't pay Cr1300 per Td... they'll only pay 1200 (400% of base)...

So the only reasons grain moves are (1) filling a dead-head with an available crop at a probable loss or (2) someone is buying it and shipping it as cargo.

Case 2 is probably NOT normally for food - flour packs better and is higher nutrition than the grain itself (eliminates most of the indigestible portions)... most likely as seed.

 

[rancke]

Thing is, that 1Td of grain (and it's more likely about 10,000kg - see Brilliant Lances) (Wheat is on the heavy side at 60#/Bushel). 13.5kL grain is about 10,500kg. given the 10,000kg per 14kL guideline in BL, let's assume some larger packing losses, and merely 10,000kg per Td, as bulk cargo. (Break bulk means even smaller mass per Td due to packaging loss.)

Yeah, I was making a guesstimate. I thought grain was in the mass 1 ballpark.

You're taking grain at roughly Cr30 per metric ton, and selling it for roughly Cr130 pe metric ton.

Really? Grain is that cheap? That is a lot less than I believed.

So the only reasons grain moves are (1) filling a dead-head with an available crop at a probable loss or (2) someone is buying it and shipping it as cargo.

I stand corrected.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Yeah, I was making a guesstimate. I thought grain was in the mass 1 ballpark.


Really? Grain is that cheap? That is a lot less than I believed.


I stand corrected.


Hans

Grain's Cr300 per Td. Which is (assuming packing the full allowed 14kL) under 11 metric tons. Given the canonical shipping containers, I think the shipping ton may in fact be 13.5kL...

But yes, grain's THAT cheap. Heck, last month wheat was only US$281 or so per metric ton. http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=wheat

Scarily enough... price ranges shown for historical wheat costs per ton in Kansas are in the range $225 to $287 for 1977. Oats between 100 and 187.
http://classic.tradingcharts.com/historical/KW/1977/0/continuous.html

I think the CT trade charts were done by grabbing price per ton-mass...
and multiplying peak by 1.1, then rounding off.

For the metals, this works fine - they don't fill the tonnage, but hey.
For grains, this makes them dirt cheap.