Skimming

[mike wightman]

With regard to fuel purification times, it depends on the rules

High Guard first edition: TL8 50t MCr0.2 it will process 1 ton of gas per minute, or 1 ton of water in 10 minutes.
Mass of the installation decreases by 5 tons per TL higher, and cost decreases by Cr10,000 per TL higher.

High Guard second edition:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TL tons cost
8 50 200,000
9 45 190,000
10 40 180,000
11 35 170,000
12 30 160,000
13 25 150,000
14 20 140,000
15 15 150,000
-per 1000 tons of fuel</pre>[/QUOTE]The purification plant can be made smaller, down to a minimum of one fifth of the size and cost shown.

 

[mike wightman]

With regard to fuel purification times, it depends on the rules

High Guard first edition: TL8 50t MCr0.2 it will process 1 ton of gas per minute, or 1 ton of water in 10 minutes.
Mass of the installation decreases by 5 tons per TL higher, and cost decreases by Cr10,000 per TL higher.

High Guard second edition:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TL tons cost
8 50 200,000
9 45 190,000
10 40 180,000
11 35 170,000
12 30 160,000
13 25 150,000
14 20 140,000
15 15 150,000
-per 1000 tons of fuel</pre>[/QUOTE]The purification plant can be made smaller, down to a minimum of one fifth of the size and cost shown.

 

[Pickles]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
How do you refuel from a rock? I'm just asking - that sounds strange to me.

On a different tack, given the prevalence of "snowball" type moons around the GG in our system, it does not seem unreasonable to snug up to one of them and suck all the hydro-carbons you want w/o the risks involved in actual skimming.

I mean snowball asteroids, of course. Would they technically be called asteroids, if they are part of a belt system?

 

[Pickles]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
How do you refuel from a rock? I'm just asking - that sounds strange to me.

On a different tack, given the prevalence of "snowball" type moons around the GG in our system, it does not seem unreasonable to snug up to one of them and suck all the hydro-carbons you want w/o the risks involved in actual skimming.

I mean snowball asteroids, of course. Would they technically be called asteroids, if they are part of a belt system?

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by Bromgrev:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BillDowns:
How do you refuel from a rock? I'm just asking - that sounds strange to me.

On a different tack, given the prevalence of "snowball" type moons around the GG in our system, it does not seem unreasonable to snug up to one of them and suck all the hydro-carbons you want w/o the risks involved in actual skimming.

I mean snowball asteroids, of course. Would they technically be called asteroids, if they are part of a belt system? </font>[/QUOTE]I would think so. The only thing is, everything I've read indicates "snowballs" are either comets from the Van Oort cloud or moons around a gas giant.

On a different tack - again - wouldn't putting unrefined fuel into the same "refined" tank contaminate it, purification tank or not?

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by Bromgrev:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BillDowns:
How do you refuel from a rock? I'm just asking - that sounds strange to me.

On a different tack, given the prevalence of "snowball" type moons around the GG in our system, it does not seem unreasonable to snug up to one of them and suck all the hydro-carbons you want w/o the risks involved in actual skimming.

I mean snowball asteroids, of course. Would they technically be called asteroids, if they are part of a belt system? </font>[/QUOTE]I would think so. The only thing is, everything I've read indicates "snowballs" are either comets from the Van Oort cloud or moons around a gas giant.

On a different tack - again - wouldn't putting unrefined fuel into the same "refined" tank contaminate it, purification tank or not?

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
Make mine seawater! A day at the beach hosing up fuel sounds sort of nice...

Just mind what's swimming around in that surf before you dip your hose, or your toes...

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I think the week is refering to the time taken by a 1G ship for the whole trip from the mainworld to the Gas Giant to conduct the skimming

Makes it kinda convenient when the main world orbits a gas giant.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
Make mine seawater! A day at the beach hosing up fuel sounds sort of nice...

Just mind what's swimming around in that surf before you dip your hose, or your toes...

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I think the week is refering to the time taken by a 1G ship for the whole trip from the mainworld to the Gas Giant to conduct the skimming

Makes it kinda convenient when the main world orbits a gas giant.

 

[Plankowner]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bromgrev:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BillDowns:
How do you refuel from a rock? I'm just asking - that sounds strange to me.

On a different tack, given the prevalence of "snowball" type moons around the GG in our system, it does not seem unreasonable to snug up to one of them and suck all the hydro-carbons you want w/o the risks involved in actual skimming.

I mean snowball asteroids, of course. Would they technically be called asteroids, if they are part of a belt system? </font>[/QUOTE]I would think so. The only thing is, everything I've read indicates "snowballs" are either comets from the Van Oort cloud or moons around a gas giant.

On a different tack - again - wouldn't putting unrefined fuel into the same "refined" tank contaminate it, purification tank or not? </font>[/QUOTE]Asteroids that are in the Outer Zone are composed of rock and ice, just like most of the smaller moons. Asteroids come in several flavors: Icy, Rocky, Metallic, Mixed. Most of them will have SOME ice on them, even if they are not icy. Of course IO violates that rule, but it is a special case.

I also agree that it might be easier to land on a moon and fill the tanks, but it would take longer than skimming. Also, doesn't water and ice take 2 trips through the purification plant?

YES, if you add unrefined fuel to a partially filled tank with refined fuel, the whole tank is now unrefined and must be purified.

I think Trillion Credit Squadron used the 1 week rule for refueling for an entire fleet; assuming that the ships were unstreamlined and using fuel shuttles. Streamlined ships could refuel in no time. There was some table that gave the numbers (don't have the books at work, just remembering from WAY back).

I am sure the 8 hour number is correct for the actual skimming time. The 1 week number probably includes travel time.

 

[Plankowner]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bromgrev:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BillDowns:
How do you refuel from a rock? I'm just asking - that sounds strange to me.

On a different tack, given the prevalence of "snowball" type moons around the GG in our system, it does not seem unreasonable to snug up to one of them and suck all the hydro-carbons you want w/o the risks involved in actual skimming.

I mean snowball asteroids, of course. Would they technically be called asteroids, if they are part of a belt system? </font>[/QUOTE]I would think so. The only thing is, everything I've read indicates "snowballs" are either comets from the Van Oort cloud or moons around a gas giant.

On a different tack - again - wouldn't putting unrefined fuel into the same "refined" tank contaminate it, purification tank or not? </font>[/QUOTE]Asteroids that are in the Outer Zone are composed of rock and ice, just like most of the smaller moons. Asteroids come in several flavors: Icy, Rocky, Metallic, Mixed. Most of them will have SOME ice on them, even if they are not icy. Of course IO violates that rule, but it is a special case.

I also agree that it might be easier to land on a moon and fill the tanks, but it would take longer than skimming. Also, doesn't water and ice take 2 trips through the purification plant?

YES, if you add unrefined fuel to a partially filled tank with refined fuel, the whole tank is now unrefined and must be purified.

I think Trillion Credit Squadron used the 1 week rule for refueling for an entire fleet; assuming that the ships were unstreamlined and using fuel shuttles. Streamlined ships could refuel in no time. There was some table that gave the numbers (don't have the books at work, just remembering from WAY back).

I am sure the 8 hour number is correct for the actual skimming time. The 1 week number probably includes travel time.

 

[Ran Targas]

^ IMTU, skimming is not a civilian sport; Scouts and navy pilots are taught how to and train for it, but even then, it is not a routine operation undertaken at a whim. A disciplined military crew might take the better part of a week just to prepare for an 8-hour skimming op. MTU's civilian transports aren't even equiped with scoops; it too dangerous for non-professionals, insurers don't cover it, and all that piping and machinery take up tonnage that could be used for something else (like making money).

But I have to ask, "Why would a commander risk it if he didn't have to"? Bring a squadron or battle group deep into a gravity well where they have limited maneuverability and are susceptible to attack, then send them diving one at a time (for safety) into the GG, hoping they make it back out without hull or drive damage. You'd have to be at war, preparing for one, or pretty desparate for free fuel.

If I were waiting for a battle group to attack me and thought they might be gassing up at the local GG; having them all huddled up, close to the clouds tops, subject to lots of EM buzz, could be quite a tactical advantage. I'd definitely have a few spy sats in orbit to catch them in the act; maybe have a few mines around too to scare them away.

I think all in all, it provides justification for dedicated fleet tankers travelling with the battle group or meeting the battle group at predetermined rendezvous. The tankers would have refueling shuttles so once empty, they could skim, sip, or melt refills for the mothership.

 

[Ran Targas]

^ IMTU, skimming is not a civilian sport; Scouts and navy pilots are taught how to and train for it, but even then, it is not a routine operation undertaken at a whim. A disciplined military crew might take the better part of a week just to prepare for an 8-hour skimming op. MTU's civilian transports aren't even equiped with scoops; it too dangerous for non-professionals, insurers don't cover it, and all that piping and machinery take up tonnage that could be used for something else (like making money).

But I have to ask, "Why would a commander risk it if he didn't have to"? Bring a squadron or battle group deep into a gravity well where they have limited maneuverability and are susceptible to attack, then send them diving one at a time (for safety) into the GG, hoping they make it back out without hull or drive damage. You'd have to be at war, preparing for one, or pretty desparate for free fuel.

If I were waiting for a battle group to attack me and thought they might be gassing up at the local GG; having them all huddled up, close to the clouds tops, subject to lots of EM buzz, could be quite a tactical advantage. I'd definitely have a few spy sats in orbit to catch them in the act; maybe have a few mines around too to scare them away.

I think all in all, it provides justification for dedicated fleet tankers travelling with the battle group or meeting the battle group at predetermined rendezvous. The tankers would have refueling shuttles so once empty, they could skim, sip, or melt refills for the mothership.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
Makes it kinda convenient when the main world orbits a gas giant.

Indeed, except that I've always had the impression (ignoring later contradictory canon) that the Mainworld is ALWAYS in the habitable zone of the star and the GG is ALWAYS way in the outer system.

Along with the other, already noted by Ran just above, notions I share about the lethality and danger of skimming, it's also not the healthiest place to live, in orbit of a GG, due to the radiation. Of course with Traveller's Anti-radiation magic, er I mean Tech, that wouldn't be a problem I guess.

But that's just my take on it.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
Makes it kinda convenient when the main world orbits a gas giant.

Indeed, except that I've always had the impression (ignoring later contradictory canon) that the Mainworld is ALWAYS in the habitable zone of the star and the GG is ALWAYS way in the outer system.

Along with the other, already noted by Ran just above, notions I share about the lethality and danger of skimming, it's also not the healthiest place to live, in orbit of a GG, due to the radiation. Of course with Traveller's Anti-radiation magic, er I mean Tech, that wouldn't be a problem I guess.

But that's just my take on it.

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
But I have to ask, "Why would a commander risk it if he didn't have to"? Bring a squadron or battle group deep into a gravity well where they have limited maneuverability and are susceptible to attack, then send them diving one at a time (for safety) into the GG, hoping they make it back out without hull or drive damage. You'd have to be at war, preparing for one, or pretty desparate for free fuel.

That's when the admiral posts 10% to 20% of his force in very high orbit as a screen; that's called the High Guard. (Book 5, 2nd ed, pg 10).

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
But I have to ask, "Why would a commander risk it if he didn't have to"? Bring a squadron or battle group deep into a gravity well where they have limited maneuverability and are susceptible to attack, then send them diving one at a time (for safety) into the GG, hoping they make it back out without hull or drive damage. You'd have to be at war, preparing for one, or pretty desparate for free fuel.

That's when the admiral posts 10% to 20% of his force in very high orbit as a screen; that's called the High Guard. (Book 5, 2nd ed, pg 10).

 

[BillDowns]

I'm sorry...I just couldn't resist that temptation.

 

[BillDowns]

I'm sorry...I just couldn't resist that temptation.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Indeed, except that I've always had the impression (ignoring later contradictory canon) that the Mainworld is ALWAYS in the habitable zone of the star and the GG is ALWAYS way in the outer system.

I have no problem with dropping a gas giant in the H orbit if the mainworld is small.

Originally posted by far-trader:
Along with the other, already noted by Ran just above, notions I share about the lethality and danger of skimming, it's also not the healthiest place to live, in orbit of a GG, due to the radiation. Of course with Traveller's Anti-radiation magic, er I mean Tech, that wouldn't be a problem I guess.

I find that once I load the big rock of jump space, pretty much everything else fits in the bag.

(As a side note, I find it interesting what sorts of future tropes will hang up Traveller gamers.)

Originally posted by far-trader:
But that's just my take on it.

And that's the beauty of Traveller in a nutshell - as many worlds to explore as their are referees.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Indeed, except that I've always had the impression (ignoring later contradictory canon) that the Mainworld is ALWAYS in the habitable zone of the star and the GG is ALWAYS way in the outer system.

I have no problem with dropping a gas giant in the H orbit if the mainworld is small.

Originally posted by far-trader:
Along with the other, already noted by Ran just above, notions I share about the lethality and danger of skimming, it's also not the healthiest place to live, in orbit of a GG, due to the radiation. Of course with Traveller's Anti-radiation magic, er I mean Tech, that wouldn't be a problem I guess.

I find that once I load the big rock of jump space, pretty much everything else fits in the bag.

(As a side note, I find it interesting what sorts of future tropes will hang up Traveller gamers.)

Originally posted by far-trader:
But that's just my take on it.

And that's the beauty of Traveller in a nutshell - as many worlds to explore as their are referees.