Skimming

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
On a different tack - again - wouldn't putting unrefined fuel into the same "refined" tank contaminate it, purification tank or not?

Back to this question of mine, I have to ask how refining is done without special holding tanks?

If a plant takes 20 tons to process internally, and has a thousand to go, where does it put the refined fuel? It sure can't go back into the same tank it came from.

Well..I suppose it could. eventually it would get the whole batch fairly, but not 100% pure, IMO.

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
On a different tack - again - wouldn't putting unrefined fuel into the same "refined" tank contaminate it, purification tank or not?

Back to this question of mine, I have to ask how refining is done without special holding tanks?

If a plant takes 20 tons to process internally, and has a thousand to go, where does it put the refined fuel? It sure can't go back into the same tank it came from.

Well..I suppose it could. eventually it would get the whole batch fairly, but not 100% pure, IMO.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
High Guard first edition: TL8 50t MCr0.2 it will process 1 ton of gas per minute, or 1 ton of water in 10 minutes.
Mass of the installation decreases by 5 tons per TL higher, and cost decreases by Cr10,000 per TL higher.

Really? Hmm...

I've only got High Guard Second Edition, but it sure looks like HG 1st ed has some cool stuff in it. I couldn't find a rule for purfication time in HG 2nd ed.

What you have listed here is a lot quicker than I was thinking. I was thinking that a ship can crack an amount of fuel equal to the displacement of the ship's Power Plant (for an easy number).

So, my 400 ton Far Trader, with it's PP-D, can crack 13 tons of fuel per day. The ship needs 80 tons to support it's J-2, so we're talking 6 days to process that fuel (which...I thought fit in nicely with the page 80 quote in the TB that skimming takes about a week....I figured 8 hours to actually skim, as it states on page 51, and then another 6 days to purfiy it).

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
High Guard first edition: TL8 50t MCr0.2 it will process 1 ton of gas per minute, or 1 ton of water in 10 minutes.
Mass of the installation decreases by 5 tons per TL higher, and cost decreases by Cr10,000 per TL higher.

Really? Hmm...

I've only got High Guard Second Edition, but it sure looks like HG 1st ed has some cool stuff in it. I couldn't find a rule for purfication time in HG 2nd ed.

What you have listed here is a lot quicker than I was thinking. I was thinking that a ship can crack an amount of fuel equal to the displacement of the ship's Power Plant (for an easy number).

So, my 400 ton Far Trader, with it's PP-D, can crack 13 tons of fuel per day. The ship needs 80 tons to support it's J-2, so we're talking 6 days to process that fuel (which...I thought fit in nicely with the page 80 quote in the TB that skimming takes about a week....I figured 8 hours to actually skim, as it states on page 51, and then another 6 days to purfiy it).

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Look on page 54 at the typical travel times. It'll take a 1G ship 5.7-6.9 days to travel from the main world (assuming it's in the inner zone) to a gas giant. Then eight hours to skim, and a further 12-17 more to get to a safe jump distance.

Let's just call it about a week

I was headin' that way with the line of thinking. I'm buying it. The quote on page 80 refers to the travel time to the GG plus the 8 hours or so to skim (with purfication done fairly quickly as stated in HG 1st ed).

That's going to be my new rule.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Look on page 54 at the typical travel times. It'll take a 1G ship 5.7-6.9 days to travel from the main world (assuming it's in the inner zone) to a gas giant. Then eight hours to skim, and a further 12-17 more to get to a safe jump distance.

Let's just call it about a week

I was headin' that way with the line of thinking. I'm buying it. The quote on page 80 refers to the travel time to the GG plus the 8 hours or so to skim (with purfication done fairly quickly as stated in HG 1st ed).

That's going to be my new rule.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:

Indeed, except that I've always had the impression (ignoring later contradictory canon) that the Mainworld is ALWAYS in the habitable zone of the star and the GG is ALWAYS way in the outer system.

Hasn't Regina always been a moon of a GG?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:

Indeed, except that I've always had the impression (ignoring later contradictory canon) that the Mainworld is ALWAYS in the habitable zone of the star and the GG is ALWAYS way in the outer system.

Hasn't Regina always been a moon of a GG?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
Back to this question of mine, I have to ask how refining is done without special holding tanks?

If a plant takes 20 tons to process internally, and has a thousand to go, where does it put the refined fuel? It sure can't go back into the same tank it came from.

Well..I suppose it could. eventually it would get the whole batch fairly, but not 100% pure, IMO.

Another good comment/question.

You're assuming, though, that the fuel tank is just one big open tank.

My take on it (and what I see when I look at my GT Type A2 deckplans) is that the large fuel tank is partitioned with baffles.

Sections of the tank can be closed off, the fuel routed around in a maze-like formation.

I assume, as the fuel is purified, the purified stuff is pumped into a closed section of the tank. By opening and closing baffles, all the unrefined fuel is routed through the purifier, filling up one section of the partitioned tank, eventually filling the entire tank with clean fuel.


Also consider this--

If the fuel purfication process is as fast as Sig reported from HG 1st ed. (1 ton of gas per minute; 1 ton of water per 10 minutes), then the ship can crack the fuel as fast as it can skim it.

So, if you don't buy the baffle idea (which I do--considering a ship can buy a tank filled with unrefined fuel), consider that it takes 8 hours to skim fuel...and it only takes 1 minute per ton to purify it.

As the fuel comes in through the scoops, it is routed through the processor before hitting the tanks.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
Back to this question of mine, I have to ask how refining is done without special holding tanks?

If a plant takes 20 tons to process internally, and has a thousand to go, where does it put the refined fuel? It sure can't go back into the same tank it came from.

Well..I suppose it could. eventually it would get the whole batch fairly, but not 100% pure, IMO.

Another good comment/question.

You're assuming, though, that the fuel tank is just one big open tank.

My take on it (and what I see when I look at my GT Type A2 deckplans) is that the large fuel tank is partitioned with baffles.

Sections of the tank can be closed off, the fuel routed around in a maze-like formation.

I assume, as the fuel is purified, the purified stuff is pumped into a closed section of the tank. By opening and closing baffles, all the unrefined fuel is routed through the purifier, filling up one section of the partitioned tank, eventually filling the entire tank with clean fuel.


Also consider this--

If the fuel purfication process is as fast as Sig reported from HG 1st ed. (1 ton of gas per minute; 1 ton of water per 10 minutes), then the ship can crack the fuel as fast as it can skim it.

So, if you don't buy the baffle idea (which I do--considering a ship can buy a tank filled with unrefined fuel), consider that it takes 8 hours to skim fuel...and it only takes 1 minute per ton to purify it.

As the fuel comes in through the scoops, it is routed through the processor before hitting the tanks.

 

[Plankowner]

Regarding GG in the Habitable Zone:

Regina has been a moon of a GG (one of 3 with breathable atmospheres) since LBB6 (second to last page, page 55).

The first extra-solar planet discovered orbiting another main-sequence star was a GG in a Torch Orbit (inside Orbit 0). Most of the planets discovered to date have been GG in the Inner Zone. Current estimates are the 10% of all systems with GG will have a GG in a Torch Orbit. There is no reason that a GG cannot be in the Habitable Zone. Book 6 basically assumes that ANY sized world can be a moon, but personally, I would try to limit the use of GG moons to no larger than Size 4 or 5. YMMV

Book 6 tells you to place GG in the Outer then Habitable Zone. Based on what we know now, GG should probably be randomly placed in ANY orbit with some preference to the Outer Zone, but not too much.

High Guard Second Edition talks about the "High Guard" position as well. It is discussed at the beginning of the design sequence section, under Procedures (Page 18)

YES! I found some of my stuff!!!!!!

 

[Plankowner]

Regarding GG in the Habitable Zone:

Regina has been a moon of a GG (one of 3 with breathable atmospheres) since LBB6 (second to last page, page 55).

The first extra-solar planet discovered orbiting another main-sequence star was a GG in a Torch Orbit (inside Orbit 0). Most of the planets discovered to date have been GG in the Inner Zone. Current estimates are the 10% of all systems with GG will have a GG in a Torch Orbit. There is no reason that a GG cannot be in the Habitable Zone. Book 6 basically assumes that ANY sized world can be a moon, but personally, I would try to limit the use of GG moons to no larger than Size 4 or 5. YMMV

Book 6 tells you to place GG in the Outer then Habitable Zone. Based on what we know now, GG should probably be randomly placed in ANY orbit with some preference to the Outer Zone, but not too much.

High Guard Second Edition talks about the "High Guard" position as well. It is discussed at the beginning of the design sequence section, under Procedures (Page 18)

YES! I found some of my stuff!!!!!!

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Actually, LBB6 (page 36) only allows for a size 8 moon around a LGG and a max size 6 moon around a SGG, and you subtract 1D6 from the planet size for a moon around a regular planet.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Actually, LBB6 (page 36) only allows for a size 8 moon around a LGG and a max size 6 moon around a SGG, and you subtract 1D6 from the planet size for a moon around a regular planet.

 

[Plankowner]

DOH! And here I was bragging about having actual books to look at and I go and make that mistake.

I never liked that aspect of LBB6 (among many others ). If moons larger than Size 2 were allowed, why don't we have any in the Solomani System? We've got dozens of moons larger than Size S and nothing over Size 2. If you tried to roll this system using LBB6, it would be ALMOST impossible. Traveller seems to allow some very large moons compared to the one solar system we have to compare it to.

Back to Skimming. There seems to be very little reference in any of the LBBs about how hazardous or non-hazardous skimming really would be. We all THINK it should be difficult, but the basic Traveller books seem to imply that skimming is pretty routine. Given what we know about conditions around GG now, I still think I would saddle up to a small moon or icy asteroid and refill there rather than rist the radiation and magnetic fields of a GG.

 

[Plankowner]

DOH! And here I was bragging about having actual books to look at and I go and make that mistake.

I never liked that aspect of LBB6 (among many others ). If moons larger than Size 2 were allowed, why don't we have any in the Solomani System? We've got dozens of moons larger than Size S and nothing over Size 2. If you tried to roll this system using LBB6, it would be ALMOST impossible. Traveller seems to allow some very large moons compared to the one solar system we have to compare it to.

Back to Skimming. There seems to be very little reference in any of the LBBs about how hazardous or non-hazardous skimming really would be. We all THINK it should be difficult, but the basic Traveller books seem to imply that skimming is pretty routine. Given what we know about conditions around GG now, I still think I would saddle up to a small moon or icy asteroid and refill there rather than rist the radiation and magnetic fields of a GG.

 

[mike wightman]

Emm, LBB6 gives Ganymede (5262km diameter), Callisto (4800km diameter), and Titan (5150km diameter) as size 3

 

[mike wightman]

Emm, LBB6 gives Ganymede (5262km diameter), Callisto (4800km diameter), and Titan (5150km diameter) as size 3

 

[Ran Targas]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
That's when the admiral posts 10% to 20% of his force in very high orbit as a screen; that's called the High Guard. (Book 5, 2nd ed, pg 10).

Sounds like that could take about a week ... rotating ships through the refueling manuever, transiting between high guard, deep patrol, and refueling stations, etc. All in all, not an operation you just decide to do one Sunday afternoon.

But my point still is that having his force effectively reduced by 80%+ leaves him at a considerable tactical disadvantage. And eventually, his high value units will have to make fuel runs, forcing him to commit escorts to their defense while in the grav well, depleting the high guard of necessary fire power. Again, I would expect a commander to take up skimming ops only if given no other choice; icy moonlets, knuiper objects, or other cometary bodies seem much better options without reducing combat effectiveness or sensor converage.

Back on topic: based on what we know about our neighborhood, the terrain around gas giants is not very friendly to thin skinned spacecraft hurtling around at high speed. If our system is average, diving willy nilly into a GG may be a much bolder maneuver than imagined thirty years ago.

 

[Ran Targas]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
That's when the admiral posts 10% to 20% of his force in very high orbit as a screen; that's called the High Guard. (Book 5, 2nd ed, pg 10).

Sounds like that could take about a week ... rotating ships through the refueling manuever, transiting between high guard, deep patrol, and refueling stations, etc. All in all, not an operation you just decide to do one Sunday afternoon.

But my point still is that having his force effectively reduced by 80%+ leaves him at a considerable tactical disadvantage. And eventually, his high value units will have to make fuel runs, forcing him to commit escorts to their defense while in the grav well, depleting the high guard of necessary fire power. Again, I would expect a commander to take up skimming ops only if given no other choice; icy moonlets, knuiper objects, or other cometary bodies seem much better options without reducing combat effectiveness or sensor converage.

Back on topic: based on what we know about our neighborhood, the terrain around gas giants is not very friendly to thin skinned spacecraft hurtling around at high speed. If our system is average, diving willy nilly into a GG may be a much bolder maneuver than imagined thirty years ago.