Small Ship fleet sizes

[rancke]

In the optional rule in Mongoose Traveller, atmosphere types 5, 6 and 8 give a +1 to population. All other atmospheres give a -1.

Here's one that I think would work reasonably well: Roll a set of physical world stats, a 'set' being somewhere around 30-40 worlds (in other words, a subsector's worth, provided the subsector isn't partly empty). Roll another set of social stats. Arrange the physical stats in a column ranging from most hospitable to least hospitable. If they're equally hospitable, the one rolled up first goes above the one rolled later. Arrange the social stats in a similar column according to population size. For each set of physical stats, roll a D6 and pair it with one of the six highest social stats. Cross them off. Repeat until all stats have been paired.


Hans

 

[aramis]

There is some Earth history precedence. Gold fields in inhospitable areas. These populations became, in the majority, miners & suppliers. Most of the family unit was living elsewhere while the "worker" sent money back home. It would probably be the case in the Trav examples of MUCH more hostile environments. Companies with employees that don't live there permanently.

There were families present in the Yukon and California Gold Rushes. Not the majority, but many towns in the regions were settled during the rushes.

Further, where one has lonely men, one usually has prostitution, and where one has prostitution, one usually winds up with unintended children.

And not a few females attempted mining... they, too, often wound up with families.

Plus, those families who moved intending to supply miners' commercial needs.

My solution is more severe than MGT's...
Where a -1 to pop is indicted, instead roll 4D, keep the lowest 2; where no mod is indicated, 3D keep lowest 2d; +1 indicated is 2d. This gives a strong correlation, but still allows for high-pop hostile worlds.

 

[HG_B]

There were families present in the Yukon and California Gold Rushes. Not the majority, but many towns in the regions were settled during the rushes.

CA isn't inhospitable. The Yukon is though. Most miners didn't bring families with them there. Which was my point. If the environment had been fatal without extreme protection you would have seen almost 0% bringing their kids... My "suppliers" covers the other people you mentioned...

 

[Carlobrand]

What's odd to me is not the inhospitable worlds with large populations, nor the rolling system that generates them. We can come up with explanations for that when we flesh out the world. What's odd to me is that 75% of the systems have terrestrial worlds with oxygen-bearing atmospheres, 57% with O2 mixes adequate for human habitation. Even the desert worlds and ice worlds have breathable atmospheres.

If you can swallow that, then the bit about the 10% should be no big problem.

 

[atpollard]

Per T4 rules, you're looking at roughly...

System	Vol-kL	MW
Stateroom	56	0.001
Endurance V LS	1500	0.05
Solar Cells	12.75	-0.051

1568.75kL=112.054 Td per person for full hab including LS, presuming no frame/skin and no ag/ic. So, round up. 115 Td per person gives space for controls, too.

Which means a 1000x1000x300m brick would roughly sustain 186335 people... but the solar would need to be replaced in such a case, as the SA requirements would be too high.

This works for a society that imports 100% of everything else it needs. Doesn't work for an actual world society.

From a study for a self-sufficient Mars Colony:



Yields 124 dTons per person (1980 tecnology).
[Kudos to T4.]

 

[HG_B]

From a study for a self-sufficient Mars Colony:

Yields 124 dTons per person (1980 tecnology).
[Kudos to T4.]

Cool. Which space agency put this together?

 

[atpollard]

Cool. Which space agency put this together?

I think that it was a PhD Thesis expanded by either the Stanford group or the Mars Society. I am pretty sure that it is somewhere on the Mars Society website .
I just use it for a quick-and-dirty check on living in space or sealed colonies on those terrible worlds.

[EDIT - found it: R.D. Johnson, C Holbrow, editors, Space Settlements: A Design Study, NASA, SP-413, Scientific and Technical.]

 

[giant.robot]

A couple quick points I noticed on the last few pages.

In terms of income taxes on citizens funding fleets (small or large) if we can assume the Third Imperium's taxes are progressive than we can say that close to half of all citizens won't be paying actual income taxes. This is only has a linear effect on the numbers tossed around with respect towards funding a navy but something worth considering. With progressive taxes you might see entire worlds where a very small percent of the population paid income taxes. For example mining/farming worlds where a majority of the population has low paying jobs. Overall I think portions of the population not paying income tax would just lower the "Cr per capita" figures.

One thing I've always used for relative sizes is things like department stores. For instance a Walmart SuperCenter. According to Wikipedia the average size of a SC is 197,000 square feet so I estimate that's about 3152 dTons. I'd estimate half that volume is actual goods for sale which is 1576 dTons worth of cargo needed to outfit a single Walmart. That's about 19 Type-A Free Traders or 8 Type-R Subsidized Merchants worth of cargo.

 

[giant.robot]

A couple quick points I noticed on the last few pages.

In terms of income taxes on citizens funding fleets (small or large) if we can assume the Third Imperium's taxes are progressive than we can say that close to half of all citizens won't be paying actual income taxes. This is only has a linear effect on the numbers tossed around with respect towards funding a navy but something worth considering. With progressive taxes you might see entire worlds where a very small percent of the population paid income taxes. For example mining/farming worlds where a majority of the population has low paying jobs. Overall I think portions of the population not paying income tax would just lower the "Cr per capita" figures.

One thing I've always used for relative sizes is things like department stores. For instance a Walmart SuperCenter. According to Wikipedia the average size of a SC is 197,000 square feet so I estimate that's about 3152 dTons. I'd estimate half that volume is actual goods for sale which is 1576 dTons worth of cargo needed to outfit a single Walmart. That's about 19 Type-A Free Traders or 8 Type-R Subsidized Merchants worth of cargo.

 

[Timerover51]

One thing I've always used for relative sizes is things like department stores. For instance a Walmart SuperCenter. According to Wikipedia the average size of a SC is 197,000 square feet so I estimate that's about 3152 dTons. I'd estimate half that volume is actual goods for sale which is 1576 dTons worth of cargo needed to outfit a single Walmart. That's about 19 Type-A Free Traders or 8 Type-R Subsidized Merchants worth of cargo.

Are you saying that the minimum cost to produce material typically found at a Walmart is going to be shipped in interstellar commerce?

 

[Cryton]

Are you saying that the minimum cost to produce material typically found at a Walmart is going to be shipped in interstellar commerce?

What a disturbing thought. I myself would have to say yes, especially to colonies that are just starting up, and those that are high population. I would bet that they will turn a tidy profit doing so as well.

I'm sure that there is an old merchant adage about it too....let me think...

Oh yeah! "There is a sucker born every minuet!"

 

[HG_B]

A couple quick points I noticed on the last few pages.

In terms of income taxes on citizens funding fleets (small or large) if we can assume the Third Imperium's taxes are progressive than we can say that close to half of all citizens won't be paying actual income taxes.

Actually, the 3I wouldn't tax directly any private planetary citizen. That isn't how the Empire is structured at all.

 

[rancke]

I'm sure that there is an old merchant adage about it too....let me think...

Oh yeah! "There is a sucker born every minuet!"

People will just have to cut back on their dancing.


Hans

 

[aramis]

One thing I've always used for relative sizes is things like department stores. For instance a Walmart SuperCenter. According to Wikipedia the average size of a SC is 197,000 square feet so I estimate that's about 3152 dTons. I'd estimate half that volume is actual goods for sale which is 1576 dTons worth of cargo needed to outfit a single Walmart. That's about 19 Type-A Free Traders or 8 Type-R Subsidized Merchants worth of cargo.

Let's check your math

197,000 square feet, with a typically 20' ceiling, tho' some hit 30' high, but probably only 8' tall shelf units. And at least 3/5 of the floor space is aisles. Certain areas hit 18' tall shelving (Bike racks, home & garden), but lots of floor displays are only 4' or 5' tall.

Volume is going to be between 110,000kL and 165,000kL, with about 45,000kL of useful volume, and about 18,000kL of shelving.... roughly 1300Td of shelving. Which, at best, is about 70% full... about 900Td maximum cargo in that store. In a volume of some 12,000Td.

So a walmart is the size of a small HG designed escort destroyer.

And I doubt a walmart is turning over the entire stock weekly. (I've heard the rate is roughly monthly, which would mean a Type R a week. An article I found online cites roughly 9x per year turnover of inventory... which would be a type R about every 5-6 weeks.)

 

[Cryton]

Let's check your math

197,000 square feet, with a typically 20' ceiling, tho' some hit 30' high, but probably only 8' tall shelf units. And at least 3/5 of the floor space is aisles. Certain areas hit 18' tall shelving (Bike racks, home & garden), but lots of floor displays are only 4' or 5' tall.

Volume is going to be between 110,000kL and 165,000kL, with about 45,000kL of useful volume, and about 18,000kL of shelving.... roughly 1300Td of shelving. Which, at best, is about 70% full... about 900Td maximum cargo in that store. In a volume of some 12,000Td.

So a walmart is the size of a small HG designed escort destroyer.

And I doubt a walmart is turning over the entire stock weekly. (I've heard the rate is roughly monthly, which would mean a Type R a week. An article I found online cites roughly 9x per year turnover of inventory... which would be a type R about every 5-6 weeks.)

So one tyee R a month/month-and-a half per Wally-mart, and.....WOW! Thats a lot of cargo! o:

 

[Timerover51]

What a disturbing thought. I myself would have to say yes, especially to colonies that are just starting up, and those that are high population. I would bet that they will turn a tidy profit doing so as well.

I'm sure that there is an old merchant adage about it too....let me think...

Oh yeah! "There is a sucker born every minuet!"

My apologies for trying to inject a note of reality into the Traveller system.

 

[Cryton]

My apologies for trying to inject a note of reality into the Traveller system.

As was I. I meant that those sort of items are going to be sought after in start up colonies (affordability), and on High Population worlds (Demand for affordable goods). Places where these stores exist in the world today have a high demand for cheaply produced (affordable) goods. Often times those goods are imported from all corners of the Earth, especially those places that produce things cheaply.

So, yes, I believe that not only will the demand still exist in the future, cheaply made goods will make up a surprising amount of what get shipped from world to world in the future.

 

[aramis]

I'll note that I found some reliable but (overly specific figures) for China to North Carolina... total operational costs per TEU, approximately $1480 in a panamax, and $950 in a neo-panamax, both at 80% full rates. (2012 US$) putting those into CT Cr (=1977 US$), that's Cr390/Td and Cr250, respectively.

The Bk2 equivalent is the 800Td vs 400Td hulls... and the 800Td J1 ships with an op-cost of Cr627 or so per jump per ton... or roughly Cr1881 per TEU... roughy 7 times the cost of trans-canal pacific to US atlantic coast.

Maritime Tech Memo: Vessel Size vs Cost
US BLS Inflation Calculator
My blog on the 800 Td ship costs to operate

 

[Timerover51]

As was I. I meant that those sort of items are going to be sought after in start up colonies (affordability), and on High Population worlds (Demand for affordable goods). Places where these stores exist in the world today have a high demand for cheaply produced (affordable) goods. Often times those goods are imported from all corners of the Earth, especially those places that produce things cheaply.

So, yes, I believe that not only will the demand still exist in the future, cheaply made goods will make up a surprising amount of what get shipped from world to world in the future.

OKay, you win. I will not waste either your time or my time in pursuing this discussion any further.

 

[DangerousThing]

OKay, you win. I will not waste either your time or my time in pursuing this discussion any further.

So no matter what type of response you get, you seem to be insulted by it.

I think that comparing the sizes and volumes of things we know (Wallmarts) to the sizes and volumes of things we don't know (space ships and what they might shp) is a good thing.

Also I don't see large discount chains going away in the future. And if an industrial planet can produce Wallmart stuff inexpensively enough it might be cheaper to bring this in via starship rather than develop the capacity to build the stuff themselves.