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Small Ship fleet sizes

Outfitting future-tech forces costs quite a chunk more per unit, so - given the same budget - the resulting force is going to be less numerous than modern Earth equivalents would suggest.

Future-tech populations have higher per capita incomes. I can't lay my hands on my copy of Striker Book 2 right now, but IIRC a TL15 world produces four or five times as much as a TL 7 world. How does that compare to the increased cost of outfitting soldiers?

(Mind you, future-tech worlds have to pay for a space/star navy on top of the groundside military, so that reduces the percentage of the military budget going to groundside forces from 100% to something like 40%).

Hans
 
The expense cuts both ways. Are you saying that every one of the invading troops is going to be a combat soldier equipped with the gear that you mention? If they are not, all those that are not become very nice targets for guerilla activity.

Well, they'll be a combat soldier in that they received the same basic training and know which end of the gun to point at the enemy but, no, not every clerk and cook will be fully armored, though one expects they'd at least have access to some arms in case the base got overrun. However, the maintenance needs of higher tech units are greater than that of lower tech units: the need to maintain the vehicles and the IR goggles and the other tech translates to more rear-area support troops, which means the unit has to be somewhat larger to put the same number of equipped troops on the front-line.

Also, how acclimatized are your landing troops to the planet? What are the atmospheric, gravitational, and weather differences between the attacker and the defender?

I'm not sure how that relates to the number of men a given planet puts under arms.

Also, I assume that the invasion is intended to capture the planet and not simply engage in deliberate destruction of the planet's infrastructure. Dropping rocks is easy, assuming that they do not take action to destroy the rocks coming down. But then you do have to occupy the planet. How many millions of men do you think are going to be required to hold a planet with a populous in the billions? The Germans and Italians combined had over 250,000 men in Yugoslavia alone, and did not have full control of the country. And then you have the Russian partisan movement, which also tied up large numbers of German troops.

Your assumption depends on political and larger scale military considerations. Our conduct during WW-II was not predicated on the idea of holding onto and exploiting the Axis powers after the war; we pretty well smacked the hell out of them with whatever was available and figured - at least while we were doing it - that the postwar rebuilding was their problem, not ours. Interstellar political considerations might justify a ground invasion to seize the world with infrastructure reasonably intact, or they might be satisfied by simply rendering the world incapable of projecting military power into space.

In any event, the question was how many troops were needed for invasion. Garrisoning's a different issue and is likely to generate different answers. Might be less expensive since you don't need battledress and FGMPs to deal with partisans wielding hunting weapons; might be a lot more since you have to cover more territory rather than striking specifically to take key objectives and reduce opposing military force concentrations - and one guy in battledress can still only be in one place at a time.

Taking the capital may win the war, but it doesn't give one control of the countryside. However, how many people are needed to hold a captured world will depend on what you intend to gain by holding it. It may be sufficient to allow the surrendered government to deal with its own local problems and then extract whatever it is you want out of the surrendered government, or it may be that boots-on-the-ground is the only way for you to hold the place and achieve your objectives.

Except you don't have to outfit your militia/irregulars to the same level as your full-time troops. It depends on the world's political situation - if the people are sheep under the almighty hand of Zorg and have nothing but wooden pitchforks with which to defend their homes, then, yeah, you get 9 million sheep to add to the 1 million military. If it's a well-to-do constitutional republic with a long history of militias and occasional drills of the "citizen soldiers", then you get 99 million well-armed, psyched-up, disciplined troops who each brought their own combat armor. But, either way, the numbers will up massively once you invade their home turf.

Actually, I apply that differently. A combat environment suit (CES) and chameleon cover are the minimum adequate protection for the battlefield - 'cause the chameleon cover gives you protection against IR detection, preventing you from standing out like a sore thumb while the other guy remains harder to spot. Also provides good protection from HE artillery fragmentation hits, making the unit more resistant to indirect fire, historically a big battlefield killer. And, while the slug weapons are generally pretty hopeless against combat armor, their attached grenade launchers helps keep the rifleman in the fight - though ammo and supply become big issues. IMTU, planetary regulars stick to CES/CC and slug throwers, with the slug thrower equipped with a much smaller 25-30mm grenade launcher to deal with combat-armored foes, while the mobile forces run around in combat armor and energy weapons, the energy weapons reducing the need for supply since they can be recharged from the power plants of any handy vehicle or generator.

As to militia: how many Americans own a set of ballistic cloth armor? Or Europeans, or Latin Americans, or so forth? If the citizen soldier is outfitted at the state's expense, you haven't solved the problem of budget, and the Traveller CES with slug thrower come to a fair fraction of an average person's annual income. Historically, militia on the large scale tended to either cheaply armed or drew on arms the militiaman brought with him, arms that were often useful in his day-to-day life - farm tools turned polearms, hunting rifles, and such. In England, a bow cost a fair chunk of a commoner's annual income; under the assizes and similar laws, the responsibility to own arms of war fell to freemen with property beyond a certain value and to knights and higher status folk.

(Besides, the way Traveller generates government types, the citizen soldier of a constitutional republic is the resident of a fairly low pop world. The high-pop worlds under discussion run to more authoritarian and restrictive high-law governments, the kind where the army's big role is keeping the citizenry in line and discouraging revolt.)

Future-tech populations have higher per capita incomes. I can't lay my hands on my copy of Striker Book 2 right now, but IIRC a TL15 world produces four or five times as much as a TL 7 world. How does that compare to the increased cost of outfitting soldiers?

(Mind you, future-tech worlds have to pay for a space/star navy on top of the groundside military, so that reduces the percentage of the military budget going to groundside forces from 100% to something like 40%).

Hans

I looked at that. Per Striker, it's 2k credits per capita per TL after 4: 2k at TL5, 4k at TL6, 6k at TL7 and so forth. A TL10 world has double the per capita income of a TL7 world, 12k verses 6k. So it costs 5 or 6 times as much, but they have twice the tax base. A TL15 world has almost twice as much as a TL10 world, 22k vs 12 k, and - well, combat armor and a laser are much more than twice the cost of the CES outfit.
 
Per Striker, it's 2k credits per capita per TL after 4: 2k at TL5, 4k at TL6, 6k at TL7 and so forth. A TL10 world has double the per capita income of a TL7 world, 12k verses 6k. So it costs 5 or 6 times as much, but they have twice the tax base. A TL15 world has almost twice as much as a TL10 world, 22k vs 12 k, and - well, combat armor and a laser are much more than twice the cost of the CES outfit.

There was a tabel for FFW in an issue of JTAS that gave the number of battalions for each population level and tech level, and I recall that it reduced the numbers for higher tech levels. I'm pretty sure the rules in GT:Ground Forces reflected that too.

Both the CT rule and the GT rule were pretty crude, ignoring population multipliers (which gave some exceedingly implausible results) and trade modifiers. But they had some of the effect you postulate.


Hans
 
I'm not sure how that relates to the number of men a given planet puts under arms.

Extreme environmental conditions can reduce the effectiveness of your troops (and possibly not reduce the effectiveness of the locals). This provides a factor (1/3x, 7/8x, whatever) to use in the calculation of that 3x rule against a defender.

As to militia: how many Americans own a set of ballistic cloth armor?
A lot more than some people think. :D But, I wasn't talking about America, but an extreme that went beyond any modern-day examples. Just to point out that there's lots more things to consider than any rule can answer.

(Besides, the way Traveller generates government types, the citizen soldier of a constitutional republic is the resident of a fairly low pop world. The high-pop worlds under discussion run to more authoritarian and restrictive high-law governments, the kind where the army's big role is keeping the citizenry in line and discouraging revolt.)

That is true. I was contemplating ideas outside those rules.
 
I looked at that. Per Striker, it's 2k credits per capita per TL after 4: 2k at TL5, 4k at TL6, 6k at TL7 and so forth. A TL10 world has double the per capita income of a TL7 world, 12k verses 6k. So it costs 5 or 6 times as much, but they have twice the tax base. A TL15 world has almost twice as much as a TL10 world, 22k vs 12 k, and - well, combat armor and a laser are much more than twice the cost of the CES outfit.

I would think that, *At Tech Level Fifteen,* Combat Armor and laser or gauss rifles would be cheaper to manufacture than at TL 10. So, IMTU at least, combat armor and laser or gauss would be standard. Keep in mind that Traveller doesn't really cover how manufacturing processes change by TL to make things cheaper and/or more powerful.
 
I would think that, *At Tech Level Fifteen,* Combat Armor and laser or gauss rifles would be cheaper to manufacture than at TL 10. So, IMTU at least, combat armor and laser or gauss would be standard. Keep in mind that Traveller doesn't really cover how manufacturing processes change by TL to make things cheaper and/or more powerful.

According to LBB4:Mercenary (page 43), equipment price is reduced 5-15% pre tech level above minimum. You also must take into account the discouts for quantity...
 
According to LBB4:Mercenary (page 43), equipment price is reduced 5-15% pre tech level above minimum. You also must take into account the discouts for quantity...

Once you hit about 10,000 plus units or so, your quantity discount is about 50% and stays about there.
 
Once you hit about 10,000 plus units or so, your quantity discount is about 50% and stays about there.

According to the same page of LBB4:Mercenary, the discount in Traveller for lots of 10000 or more for ammunition, 1000+ for general equipment and weaons or 100+ for vehicles (so the maximum discount for quantity) is 60%.
 
According to the same page of LBB4:Mercenary, the discount in Traveller for lots of 10000 or more for ammunition, 1000+ for general equipment and weaons or 100+ for vehicles (so the maximum discount for quantity) is 60%.

Sorry, I was using real world figures for general equipment and major end items, such as vehicles. I was a supply officer. Small arms ammunition in that small a lot as 10,000, unless it is a very common caliber, tends to be more expensive than a 60% discount, but again, that is real world. A lot of 10,000 rounds of small arms ammunition is barely enough for the normal quantity carried by 100 men. And if you are talking small caliber, like 4mm to 5.56mm, that might only be enough for 50.
 
Notice, everyone. timerover was kind enough to post a warning in his sig.

He actually LIKES studying logistics. You have been forewarned.
 
Notice, everyone. timerover was kind enough to post a warning in his sig.

He actually LIKES studying logistics. You have been forewarned.

Even scarier, I also study things like how many man-hours did it take in World War 2 for the US to produce one pound of airframe (by the end of the war, about 1 man-hour per pound, depending on the aircraft), and how many man-hours to produce one horsepower of aircraft engine (by the end of the war, 0.86 man hours per horsepower for an air-cooled engine, 0.80 man hour per horsepower for a liquid-cooled engine). As many of the US tank engines were derived from aircraft engines, those figures would work for them as well.

I also track ship building times, and in 1886, prior to the use of the hydraulic rivet gun, the output per worker per year in the English shipbuilding yards was 2.5 tons per year. The rivet gun increased that by a factor of 4.
 
In a small ship universe:
How many soldiers could a 5000dTon troop transport ship fit? Would you need to have them all be frozen to make more effective use of space?

If your TU is CT (as most small ship universes are), carring your troops in cold berths means assume 1/12th of them (8.3% of your troops) to be lost just in awakening them (and that assumes there will be a good medic to awaken them and that none has low end). IMHO, not many armies are willing to take those losses from their beste troops, and I assume those are the troops they send to assault a planet.

In MT this could be posible, as low travel is quite less lethal (in fact, even with a mishap death is quite rare, most cases being only temporary damage). I'm not sure in otehr versions.
 
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Hi there! I had several questions about Small Ship Fleets
In a small ship universe:
How many soldiers could a 5000dTon troop transport ship fit? Would you need to have them all be frozen to make more effective use of space?
How many of said troop transports would be needed to invade a million personnel defense force (say 1% of a Pop 9 planet)?
What would SDB's be like? Would they be 300 tons necessarily be smaller?
Finally, because they are my favorite aliens, how do you all feel about Solomani "fixed mounts" on ships (From CT Alien Module 6: Solomani) to double up on weapons for CT Book 2 designs?

Hi Nathan,

In Mongoose the 2 kt Aslan Assault Carrier carries 160 'live' & 200 'sleep. troops and has 157 tons of Cargo space, I would rip out the Fusion Gun Bay and one of the Missile Bays and stick in another 19 staterooms and a sickbay to help revive the low berth troops.

The old 3kt Aslan Intruder Transport from ACS could carry 256 troops and I think 8 10 ton Fighters.

For SDB's I would go with 300 tons provided your rules system can squeeze a Meson Gun Bay and Thrust 6 in.

Success is way too variable but generally High Tech beats low tech.

Regards

David
 
A couple of comments. First, if you invade a planet where currently 1% of the population is in the military, and one per cent of a population 9 planet is 10 million, not one million, that percentage is going to increase dramatically, to between 5% and 10% based on past Earth averages. Germany invaded the USSR in 1941 with a very well trained and equipped veteran army of 3 million men, and did not succeed. As you are thinking System Defense Boats, it appears that the invaders are not going to have a significant Tech advantage.

.

Hi Timerover,

however Germany was blessed with a Dictator that refused to admit he was at war until 1943, refused to retreat and believed he knew how to conduct
military affairs better than his generals.

Regards

David
 
Future-tech populations have higher per capita incomes. I can't lay my hands on my copy of Striker Book 2 right now, but IIRC a TL15 world produces four or five times as much as a TL 7 world. How does that compare to the increased cost of outfitting soldiers?
Hans

Hi Hans,

I thought the Striker Values were to high and reduced TL8 to 9,000 Cr/head and added 1,000 Cr / TL after that up to 14 and made TL15 17,000 Cr /head,
even so pop 9 and higher high tech world still have rediculously huge quantities to spend and can easily field 20 million troops, hard to see them falling to a few thousand Ihatei.

Also I equip my Aslan Ihatei at a lower TL than their elder brethren back home as the older brothers don't want their younger brothers stealing their lands....

Regards

David
 
...even so pop 9 and higher high tech world still have rediculously huge quantities to spend and can easily field 20 million troops, hard to see them falling to a few thousand Ihatei.

Depends. Balkanized world, the Aslan clobber the local equivalent of Zimbabwe, the immediate neighbors are too weak to mount an effective response and the more powerful countries are too far away to care.
 
In Mongoose the 2 kt Aslan Assault Carrier carries 160 'live' & 200 'sleep. troops and has 157 tons of Cargo space, I would rip out the Fusion Gun Bay and one of the Missile Bays and stick in another 19 staterooms and a sickbay to help revive the low berth troops.

In CT, as told above, this would mean about 16 troops (average, and assuming good medic and good endurance for the troops) dead just when awakening them. I didn't find in Mgt what's the chance of dying while awakening from low berth.
 
If your TU is CT (as most small ship universes are)
. My TU is one accepts all the stuff from every version of OTU (no ATU for me) from all versions of Traveller , except for when something outrageously does not fit in....

Too many book reference large ships so I am a large ship universe guy. Makes the space battles with Lucan Class Superdreadnauts from T:1248 more fun storywise anyways.
 
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