So not space drow at all, then?
Hans
Better look at the Daryen module again. They're pretty strongly space elves. More Tolkienian elven than the 40K Space Elves were/are.
T5 MAJOR RACES: ALIENS 1 - 8
- Thread starter Spaceresearcher
- Start date
Better look at the Daryen module again. They're pretty strongly space elves. More Tolkienian elven than the 40K Space Elves were/are.
We've had this discussion before, so you know that I've looked closely at the Darrians module before. Indeed, I took an exceptionally close look at it back when I wrote up Darrians for GT:Humaniti, so I'm quite familiar with it. Darrians are no more space elves than Vulcans are. They just happen to have pointed ears, which has given illustrators the wrong idea on occasion. As for any textual support for the notion, it can be found only as a result of severe selection bias.
Hans
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
So being associated with idyllic groves in isolated valleys, having fallen from their previous heights, and working wonders that even modern humaniti can't quite match is selection bias?
I'll agree that they aren't *just* space elves, but they certainly draw on a few of the same tropes. They are "Space Elves" to about the same extent the Geonee are "Space Dwarves". Which is to say, "kinda sorta, if you squint a bit". They are certainly closer than Vulcans.
Having your ancestors live among trees associate you with trees forevermore?
Darrians are 200,000 years removed from the Orchards.
Hans
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Have you seen our playgrounds? Full of tree analogs, every one of them.
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Obligatory use of "sophont".
Spaceresearcher
SOC-12
LOL. My apologies I thought you were talking about writing. In any case, that would be a difficult subject to produce in a 3D package. I hope to see it one day.
Spaceresearcher
SOC-12
There is also such a thing as 'not enough data'. If your happy with one page summaries then that's great for you. Myself, I want to be able to get inside the characters skin(or scales if that be the case), eg role play them. Knowing about the culture and society of a race helps to nail it down.
For example, the Zhodani are a telepathic race that keep to themselves. End. A bit boring don't you think? Whereas a description that talks about there lineage, there way of life, the different sects of the race, even there dress code and decor really do help to spice up a game and know your keeping to the creators intentions. A terrific example of detailing a race would be Barry Longyears 'Enemy Mine' trilogy. There is even a run down on there time line etc. Seriously that really makes you appreciate and enjoy the race. If there just a steroetypical plot blur, then they don't really have value.
I understand on the too much data aspect, but seriously, I felt 56 pages in the classic was not nearly enough. I'd love to see maps of there worlds, cities, vehicles, technology, society groups etc. The main human race seem to have the most data, eg all about there military, TAS, ships, way of life, the imperium etc. The other races need that data. Eg. the universe map for there side of the story. Where it shows there garisons and outposts. Sacred sites and place of rest for valued relics etc.
To me the very special aspect of Traveller is it encourages the role playing of these aliens. Eg there not just colour for the game, there integral parts of the game itself. Recently I played a game that featured a Zhodani and a Vargr and let me tell you, that makes it a very interesting game as those characters have there very different ways of handling situations etc.
Honestly, I feel that 100 pages plus, then maps and sample vehicles, tech etc on top is not a big ask.(a lot of the work has already been done and it just needs to be collated and organised). This would probably blow it out to around 120 pages per major alien race. So there's 2, 480 page books.
Then for the minor races(some of which may not be as minor as we think), about 50 pages on each to really give them some depth(so that would mean a classic Traveller style format for each of the minor races).
As there's about 30 well known minor races, there's another 3, 500 page books.
Alright now this might sound like a lot however, you can practically say that only 50 - 60% of that number would be actual text and tables. The rest would be artwork, maps and layouts of common installations etc. So with that in mind, it would mean that the 120page major race sections are only 50 - 70 pages of actual written text(that's already been written but not to everyones liking in books like Aliens 1, from T4 for example).
With the minor races, obviously there would be a few per book and that some may chew up more space than others but were only talking around 25 - 30 pages of written text for them.
I wouldn't call that 'too much' data by any means, but it would provide a very rich and detailed explanation for the major races which define the Traveller universe.
That's my dreams for the alien books anyway.
Spaceresearcher
SOC-12
Having said all that.
I feel the ultimate would be 200pages plus for each of the major races, then support modules to compliment that race(eg the vehicle and equipment guides for that race). That's been one of my gripes is that the main focus is always on the humans. Being able to role play the other races means adding as much of there details to equal out the most well known one in my humble opinion.
Have adventures that actually require you to role play another race (I'm not saying no humans allowed but force players into an unfamiliar territory that allows exciting new possibilities).
Have the Vargr Army guide to interstellar travel, the Droyne guide to equipment etc. Campaigns devoted to an alien race.(where you actually have to design an alien race character for the game, not play a familar character you know to death).
I don't like the idea of these great ideas for races, where a race is developed, they own worlds x,y and z, drop it in the players lap end of story, only make modules predominantly designed for humans and the aliens are just out there to colour up the universe.
No, I prefer them as integral parts and the only way people feel comfortable making them integral parts, is actually to know more about them. EG. More data and support material for them. Then the Aliens become friends or allies and there culture can be more fascinating and less 'alien'.
That's one concept I believe in. The concept that everyone may not all get along, but we can all work together and understanding one another is the first step to appreciating and liking one another.
Perhaps for some races like the Zodani, the creators wanted them to remain largely secretive and not well known about. This in itself creates fear and leads to wars(hence the major wars). Who knows. Ultimately I know each and every Traveller has there way of tackling the Traveller universe. To me, the aliens and there technology pose the potential to help tackle the universe. They make it a multi-alien society if you will.
In order to embrace there technology and cultures(if so desired) we simply need to know all we can about them. Would other fellow Travellers agree?
I feel the ultimate would be 200pages plus for each of the major races, then support modules to compliment that race(eg the vehicle and equipment guides for that race). That's been one of my gripes is that the main focus is always on the humans. Being able to role play the other races means adding as much of there details to equal out the most well known one in my humble opinion.
Have adventures that actually require you to role play another race (I'm not saying no humans allowed but force players into an unfamiliar territory that allows exciting new possibilities).
Have the Vargr Army guide to interstellar travel, the Droyne guide to equipment etc. Campaigns devoted to an alien race.(where you actually have to design an alien race character for the game, not play a familar character you know to death).
I don't like the idea of these great ideas for races, where a race is developed, they own worlds x,y and z, drop it in the players lap end of story, only make modules predominantly designed for humans and the aliens are just out there to colour up the universe.
No, I prefer them as integral parts and the only way people feel comfortable making them integral parts, is actually to know more about them. EG. More data and support material for them. Then the Aliens become friends or allies and there culture can be more fascinating and less 'alien'.
That's one concept I believe in. The concept that everyone may not all get along, but we can all work together and understanding one another is the first step to appreciating and liking one another.
Perhaps for some races like the Zodani, the creators wanted them to remain largely secretive and not well known about. This in itself creates fear and leads to wars(hence the major wars). Who knows. Ultimately I know each and every Traveller has there way of tackling the Traveller universe. To me, the aliens and there technology pose the potential to help tackle the universe. They make it a multi-alien society if you will.
In order to embrace there technology and cultures(if so desired) we simply need to know all we can about them. Would other fellow Travellers agree?
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
The Vargr/Vilani and Vargr/Zhodani contacts are ancient, but documented.
The K'kree/Hiver contact is a major point in the history of both, and documented.
K'kree/Vilani is sort of fuzzy, as is Hiver/Vilani-and-or-Solomani.
K'kree/Vargr is documented, but not broadly.
Aslan/Solomani is documented.
Aslan/Imperium is slightly fuzzy, but early Imperium.
Aslan/Vargr, Aslan/Zhodani, Aslan/K'kree (bad end) and Aslan/Hiver are all fuzzy.
The Virushi, Newts, and numerous "Imperial region" minor races were contacted first by the Vilani, mostly prior to the formation of the Ziru Sirka.
One of my favorite parts of any alien book was in the MT ones, the parts about their psychology, like how Solomani differed in thinking from the Imperials/Vilani, as well as the role-playing examples to demonstrate those traits.
So yeah, I pretty much agree with you for what I'd like to see too, although there may be a bit of YMMV for some others, I don't know.
Oh yeah, and lots of pictures. Lots.
Spaceresearcher
SOC-12
Right on Murdoc. Psychology of an alien race really makes you think outside the square. You essentially have to throw out everything you might go along with for a human character and end up with a very different character to game with.
Myself I'm trying to visualise playing a Droyne. Would they be very flat and to the point(eg the castes system would make them stereotypical on a lot of levels). Droyne emotions? Then as the classic text documents they have a groups which foster support for one another so that would surely hint at emotions and a sense of responsibility for other members of there race. So much is unknown and I'd love to learn more about Droyne for one. Then the Darrians, they seem to be like this mystical race that occupy a section just south of the spinward marches and stick to there turf. Very mysterious. But hey if you had there tech, would there be much need to venture too far from your established worlds?ABSOLUTELY. LOT'S OF PICTURES and ARTWORKS. Even perhaps writing fonts and there language.
That's why I'm certain 200pages would be a great thing for a major race, give artists a great opportunity to populate it profusely with artworks to stir the imagination and put with the text.Spaceresearcher
SOC-12
A very good point Shonner. Myself I'd say no definitive timeline on race contact. The main knowledge seems to be the timeline of the imperium. Everything else is a touch grey, so that's another terrific feature that T5 could incorporate into the new Aliens modules if there possible to do.
Despite the large number of words that have been written about the majors, I still think there are aspects that deserve elucidation, such as, for example, the Aslan social organization that bridges the gap between 200-individual prides and 10 billion-individual clans, the economics and politics of ihatei fleets, Imperial Aslan, and how big a percentage of Vargr warships actually get stolen by their crews.
Hans
Hans
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Spaceresearcher
SOC-12
Absolutely Rancke,
I'm still curious to see how the Vargr are classified. Some people seem to believe from the wolf line(eg the Mongoose flavour), however reading the Droyne guide from original Traveller, right at the front in the timeline it specifically states:
The Vargr have been shown (through genetic testing) to
be descendants of genetically manipulated Terran canines (apparently, the
canine stock was acquired at the same time that Humans were taken from Terra).
So that would contradict what a lot of fellow Travellers seem to have been saying, believing they came from the wolf line.
The classic text clearly outlines that fact and it makes perfect sense and confirms, there dog men, NOT wolf men(manipulated terran canines).
I've decided that the appropriate word to use instead of the one that sounds like a bit like Syphilis if you don't pronounce it correctly or slurred etc, would be 'Sentient'. This would also encompass artificial beings, AI's etc. (Problem outlined on Page 543 of the T5 rule book solved and that fellow Travellers is one of my errata's to the book. Crossing out the word I hate to replace it with Sentient, Alien and Aliens where appropriate).
I'm still curious to see how the Vargr are classified. Some people seem to believe from the wolf line(eg the Mongoose flavour), however reading the Droyne guide from original Traveller, right at the front in the timeline it specifically states:
The Vargr have been shown (through genetic testing) to
be descendants of genetically manipulated Terran canines (apparently, the
canine stock was acquired at the same time that Humans were taken from Terra).
So that would contradict what a lot of fellow Travellers seem to have been saying, believing they came from the wolf line.
The classic text clearly outlines that fact and it makes perfect sense and confirms, there dog men, NOT wolf men(manipulated terran canines).
I've decided that the appropriate word to use instead of the one that sounds like a bit like Syphilis if you don't pronounce it correctly or slurred etc, would be 'Sentient'. This would also encompass artificial beings, AI's etc. (Problem outlined on Page 543 of the T5 rule book solved and that fellow Travellers is one of my errata's to the book. Crossing out the word I hate to replace it with Sentient, Alien and Aliens where appropriate).
Wolves are canines too. 300,000 year old 'canine stock' cannot refer to dogs:
"MtDNA evidence shows an evolutionary split between the modern dog's lineage and the modern wolf's lineage around 100,000 years ago but, as of 2013, the oldest fossil specimens genetically linked to the modern dog's lineage date to approximately 33,000-36,000 years ago.[4][6]" [Wikipedia on dogs.]
'Sentient' refers to the ability to feel, as opposed to to reason. All animals are sentient. I still think 'sapient' is the obvious noun to coin for species that reason.
Hans
Man, now you've got me thinking about the psychology of the Droyne (one of my two favorite races in Traveller). Psychology is one of my specialities, so I'd love to do a write-up on it, but it wouldn't really be worth the time if it didn't become official somehow, because it would just superseded by something else down the road. Heck, I'd do the whole alien book (and maybe some others besides) if I thought I could get paid something for it (to justify taking time away from my other projects I hope will earn me some money). I've been wanting to get into writing for Traveller officially but I'm still unsure how to go about it, or even if it'd be a possibility.
I once did some speculation about the composition of Droyne military units based on the assumptions that one third of the troops were removed every term (and one third transferred to other occupations, but that was compensated for by others transferring in) and that older Droyne outranked younger Droyne of the same caste. Never did finsish them and my notes are probably long gone -- it was back in the days of pencil and paper notes.
Essentially, you'd have one 'lance-corporal' for every two privates, one 'corporal' for every two 'lance-corporals', and so on. Command officer equivalents would be from the Leader caste and staff officer equivalents from the Sports caste. They would have the same two-for-one-of-the-next-higher-rank mechanism going on.
I never did get around to figuring out how combat losses would be handled.
Hans
Essentially, you'd have one 'lance-corporal' for every two privates, one 'corporal' for every two 'lance-corporals', and so on. Command officer equivalents would be from the Leader caste and staff officer equivalents from the Sports caste. They would have the same two-for-one-of-the-next-higher-rank mechanism going on.
I never did get around to figuring out how combat losses would be handled.
Hans
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
With the exception of the Aslan, who conducted most of their first Major contacts during the Third Imperium (ironically), the Major/Major contacts are fairly well known, to at least a sector and century resolution. Most were significant to one or both involved Majors, so they show up in the respective CT Alien Modules.
Of the minor races we know about, the majority are within Imperial space either past or present. Their first major contacts are nearly always the Vilani, and mostly prior to the Consolidation Wars. More than 4000 years prior to the standard campaign and on the other side of a 2000 year break in the paperwork, in other words.
Notable *known* exceptions include the sophonts of the Marches, and Behind the Claw in general. For many of them the first major contact would have been either the Zhodani, Vargr, or Solomani.
There are of course many unknown races who were first, and last, contacted by the K'kree, and are now extinct. A similar group (of which we know the names of only two) was first contacted by the Hivers and are now part of the Federation. Both sets of contacts are largely prior to the Hiver-K'kree War, which puts them in the same timeframe as most of the Vilani first contacts.
Very few of these are recent events.
Aramis said:
This.
I think I understand where you're coming from. Can you break your concept down into chapters with relative sizes, to give a better feel for what you're asking?
I'll have to revisit the alien modules to see their content. They didn't seem particularly well organized.
