T5 MAJOR RACES: ALIENS 1 - 8

[rancke]

Well we'll all just have to wait for T5's alien updates to find out on that. While the classic text doesn't specifically state canis familiaris(which would be the domesticated dog except for an example in the Solomani book), it doesn't rule it out either. Dog genes(or the genesis of) must have been in the wolf genes also.

You're wrong. The classic text does rule out Canis familiaris, since Canis familiaris didn't exist 300,000 years ago when the Ancients gathered the canine stock they used to create the Vargr. Repeating the fallacy doesn't change that. It doesn't become true because you tell us three times. Or 300,000 times.


Hans

 

[Spaceresearcher]

You're wrong. The classic text does rule out Canis familiaris, since Canis familiaris didn't exist 300,000 years ago when the Ancients gathered the canine stock they used to create the Vargr. Repeating the fallacy doesn't change that. It doesn't become true because you tell us three times. Or 300,000 times.

Hans

But like you have said, the genes could exist and so to would the genes which would eventually become the later stock.

 

[Vladika]

IF we attempted to use the argument that Vargr degenerate into Canis familiaris varieties, then we must also allow them to mutate into various human forms. That would naturally follow given their part human DNA.

I DO NOT advocate that theory. I simple state that if one, then the other.

Personally, I believe "Grandfather" established the Vargr as he saw fit. At, IIRC, TL25, he did it right and since he did I doubt their degeneration to Canis familiaris hybrids.

Humans have not evolved/ devolved into hundreds of subspecies (this may be open to debate but not by me) and I can't see the Vargr doing it either. I see the Vargr killing off undesirable mutation, as the Spartans did in ancient Greece for birth defects. Both are/were warrior races and it's doubtful they would allow weaker stock to survive and breed.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

In any case, it is commonly believed that dogs descended from wolf lines.

Anyway, some facts on wolf and dogs in general for those who may be interested like me, to expand the Vargr story and there lineage.

The domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris) is a subspecies of the gray wolf.

Humans are believed to have created the first stone axes more than 350 000 years ago. [Not relavent to wolves but helps to see enhance the possibility of the 400 000 year ago wolf domestication].
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...stone-axes-350-000-years-earlier-thought.html

Technically there should be at least 38 different races, depending on if the ancients took one or more of each of the 38 different species:
Among true wolves, two species are recognized: Canis lupus (often known simply as “gray wolves”), which includes 38 subspecies, such as the gray, timber, artic, tundra, lobos, and buffalo wolves. [http://facts.randomhistory.com/interesting-facts-about-wolves.html]

Finally a very interesting site which strongly suggests that domestication of wolves occured as early as 400 000 years ago along with some other very interesting information.
http://www.responsibledog.net/evolution_domestication.html

This strongly suggests that domestication was around a lot longer then we seem to believe. While actual domesticated dog bones date back to currently believed 31000 years or so, the actual date on when the wolf lines cross bred to eventually create dogs is still unknown. In fact the wolf has been an historical mystery in this regard. There are estimates but no clear point at which the strains which evolved into the early dogs began.

For this reason, I don't believe you can say dogs(I'm talking early dog, very similar to wolf) are not part of canon Traveller Vargr. Would the earliest dogs not have been very much like wolves(if not looking identical)? Yes I know, we wouldn't call and Astralopithicus man, a modern day man, but as the generations that proceeded it progressed, the line blurred. Even to this day, we are still evolving with skull sizes shown to be increasing with time(one day we'll probably look that scary race from those early Star Trek episodes with the big heads). There's a lot of time between 400 000 and 300 000 years ago, even 350 000 and 300 000 years ago. A lot of possibilities in that space of time.

As an area of mystery to this very long admired Traveller race, I think it would add a great deal of depth to expand upon the Vargr in terms of there races.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Thanks for the debates too fellow Travellers, I really appreciate it and like Rancke's statement, don't go getting mad, just because I have different ideas.

I'm not trying to cheese anyone off, just discuss possibilities and share my views on the Traveller aliens which form very important parts of the Traveller universe.

Incidentally, could the Aslan have been part of the ancients genetic manipulation experiments and caused the four-limbed carnivorous pouncer stock
which was originally near the top of the food chain in the forests
of Kusyu (Kilrai' 0406 A876986-E)? Spliced lion dna to the pouncer stock as an experiment perhaps??

Obviously there's no written connection to the ancients in the classic Traveller book on Aslan, but you can't deny, they look very much like lion men.

I've been thinking about an ancients adventure which would key the early development of this incredible race to a group of ancients left over from the terrible war that appeared to have wiped them out. (The less than 3200 years of star flight and there quick advancement to the stars in comparison to The Solomani, Vargr and Zhodani for example is incredible on a historical note. Hence the idea).

What do you think?

 

[Shonner]

I'd argue there's no human DNA in the Vargr.

 

[rancke]

But like you have said, the genes could exist and so to would the genes which would eventually become the later stock.

If you mean that to the extent that some dogs still bear a close resemblance to their wolf cousins modern Vargr may bear some resemblance to some dogs (to wit, those aforementioned), sure. How could it be otherwise? Wolves and dogs are, after all, related, so if a Vargr resembles a wolf, he automatically resembles certain dog breeds.

But if you mean that convergent evolution might just have caused Vargr to evolve into subraces that by a staggering coincidence resemble any of the dog breeds that dog breeders have deliberately created over the last 15,000 years (most of them over the last 1000 years), then no. The odds of that actually happening by sheer random chance are just not on. You're not going to get any bulldog-men or collie-men or poodle-men.


Hans

 

[rancke]

ATechnically there should be at least 38 different races, depending on if the ancients took one or more of each of the 38 different species:
Among true wolves, two species are recognized: Canis lupus (often known simply as “gray wolves”), which includes 38 subspecies, such as the gray, timber, artic, tundra, lobos, and buffalo wolves. [http://facts.randomhistory.com/interesting-facts-about-wolves.html]

Finally a very interesting site which strongly suggests that domestication of wolves occured as early as 400 000 years ago along with some other very interesting information.
http://www.responsibledog.net/evolution_domestication.html

This strongly suggests that domestication was around a lot longer then we seem to believe.

Domesticated wolves, possibly. Dogs as distingushable from wolves, no. Try reading the sources you linked to again.

While actual domesticated dog bones date back to currently believed 31000 years or so, the actual date on when the wolf lines cross bred to eventually create dogs is still unknown.

But DNA analysis suggest that it happened around 100,000 years ago, as I told you (with link) in a previous post.

For this reason, I don't believe you can say dogs (I'm talking early dog, very similar to wolf) are not part of canon Traveller Vargr.

You're wrong about that. "Dogs (Canis familiaris) are not part of canon Traveller Vargr".


Hans

 

[rancke]

Obviously there's no written connection to the ancients in the classic Traveller book on Aslan, but you can't deny, they look very much like lion men.

I can and do deny it. According to canon, they bear a vague resemblance to lions, nothing more. That some illustrators have been oblivious of that or just plain ignored it doesn't change that.


Hans

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Domesticated wolves, possibly. Dogs as distingushable from wolves, no. Try reading the sources you linked to again.



But DNA analysis suggest that it happened around 100,000 years ago, as I told you (with link) in a previous post.



You're wrong about that. "Dogs (Canis familiaris) are not part of canon Traveller Vargr".


Hans

Well what about if they have dogs as pets?

 

[Vladika]

Well what about if they have dogs as pets?

If you were a Vargr, would you "own" a dog? If so, what kind?

 

[Cryton]

My thoughts on the whole Vargar issues are the following:

1) Hans and Spacebadger ARE correct. There were no Dogs, Wolves, Coyotes or Foxes 300k years ago. Only their Canis ancestors that most strongly resemble wolves, such as the "Dire" Wolf.

2) It was domestication of wolves that created dogs. Still does. Wolves bred in captivity will within a few generations, strongly resemble dogs more than wolves in appearance and attitude. As do Foxs, and Coyotes. Sucks but its a fact.

Civilization is a form of domestication. Argue with the scientists if you don't agree. As such, though I do not like it as its not as cool as "Wolves of Space", there is a lot of scientific evidence, that through extrapolation, says that the Vargar should have a more "Dog-man" appearance.

However, in all the artwork and text, both in the original CT and the later MT materials, (in fact ALL Traveller materials until MgTs irritatingly bad art for their Vargar release) the Vargar have always been wolf like in appearance.

So IMTU and in the OTU until MgT, Vargar are "Wolf" like. Post MgT we have to live with some fraction of the OTU Vargar being "Dog" men.

How you do things in YTU is up to you.

Thats my .02 CrImp

Cryton

 

[Cryton]

If you were a Vargr, would you "own" a dog? If so, what kind?

Small and yappy lap dog.

Similar to the majority of Humans who own small primates.

Cryton

 

[Spaceresearcher]

If you were a Vargr, would you "own" a dog? If so, what kind?

As the generations of Vargr reproduced in various groups throughout there known sectors of space, some Vargr had offspring not unlike humans produce down syndrome people.

Classed as underlings these Vargr looked something like a cross between a Poodle and a German Shepard in a body that was bipedal and noses that had less protrusion than there masters.

A wild idea that a couple of fellow Travellers will not like but no race is perfect even if they were created by the ancients intervention. New T5 canon here we come.

 

[SanDragon]

A.K.A. children?

 

[Cryton]

A.K.A. children?

Harsh. Kudos for no political correctness. Still, Harsh. :rofl:

Cryton

 

[Vladika]

As the generations of Vargr reproduced in various groups throughout there known sectors of space, some Vargr had offspring not unlike humans produce down syndrome people.

Classed as underlings these Vargr looked something like a cross between a Poodle and a German Shepard in a body that was bipedal and noses that had less protrusion than there masters.

A wild idea that a couple of fellow Travellers will not like but no race is perfect even if they were created by the ancients intervention. New T5 canon here we come.

Good answer.

 

[aramis]

If you were a Vargr, would you "own" a dog? If so, what kind?

Quite a few humans own monkeys, and not a few own Chimps or Banoboes...

Wolves will imprint cross species on odd occasions; a wolf bitch who has lost her whelps will imprint on just about any 1-2kg nursing mammal that isn't normal prey...

 

[Spaceresearcher]

My main curiosity will be how the 'interspecies' aspect of the races will be treated in the new alien modules. That's going to be very interesting. I don't believe it's really been done to the detail that Traveller would encompass the concept.

I mean sure you've got games like Rifts and Cyberpunk which incorporated the hybridisation of many creatures mixed with parts from other species and cybernetics but Traveller to me has always taken the science concepts a touch more seriously and in so doing provides a more colourful universe, far removed from the black and white of other SciFi RPG's.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Should the minor races presented in the T4 Aliens module be left till last to concentrate on the 8 major races presented since Classic Traveller?

While I'd like to see all the aliens ever covered be given the gloss treatment they all deserve, it would be nice to see a complete update of the classic modules incorporating all the nice details that have been added over the years. Collections of artwork to adorn nice volumes of data including ships, vehicles, buildings and architectural layouts of there cultures. It would probably be considered by some to be a touch over board, but samples of there writing and natural language would also be welcome by this fan.

Honestly, the Droyne alone could probably get a 300 page book without any trouble. (Could contain hidden snippets and further information on the ancients and a catalogue of there currently known relics).