T5 MAJOR RACES: ALIENS 1 - 8

[GypsyComet]

I'll have to revisit the alien modules to see their content. They didn't seem particularly well organized.

Some were better organized than others. Where most fell down is in describing how to play and/or portray the races in game when face-to-face with one. To be fair, this isn't easy to do, and of course some of them (the Vargr most notably) should be just as varied as we Terrans when it comes to cultural specifics.

 

[aramis]

For a race workup, here's what I'd like to see:

• 1 page capsule, readily copyable.
  • 3-views, taking 1 column (2x1/2 col)
  • 1/4 column overview
  • 1/4 col basic att mods & CGen outline
• 1-5 pages of psychology
• 1-10 pages of special rules, as needed.
  • character generation changes
  • explicit stateroom/LS requriements
  • standard design pattern changes
• 0-20 pages Worked Examples of any special rules.
• 0-10 pages of subculture notes
• 0-10 pages of governmental notes for their interstellar polities
• 1/8 page per page of illustrations

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Wolves are canines too. 300,000 year old 'canine stock' cannot refer to dogs:

"MtDNA evidence shows an evolutionary split between the modern dog's lineage and the modern wolf's lineage around 100,000 years ago but, as of 2013, the oldest fossil specimens genetically linked to the modern dog's lineage date to approximately 33,000-36,000 years ago.[4][6]" [Wikipedia on dogs.]​

'Sentient' refers to the ability to feel, as opposed to to reason. All animals are sentient. I still think 'sapient' is the obvious noun to coin for species that reason.

Hans

Firstly I don't get this 300 000 year old number. Where does that come from? Also even if it was 300 000 years old, does that mean it's from primitive man? It could have been humans taken from the present day, but in the Traveller universe today is thousands of years ago. So if it were as I am taking it to mean, then mans best friend would seem an obvious choice as we like to look after them, take them for walks and feed them. In fact they may have mistaken the dogs for the masters(we even pick up there poop). The ancients could not be certain and were confused as the dogs seemed to be less intelligent than people, so they modified them as an experiment.


Alright then, Sapient it is. It's still a nicer word than.... [not going there].
To me sentient, means a concious mind. That can accomodate a plethora of areas. Humans are sentient and sapient.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

For a race workup, here's what I'd like to see:

• 1 page capsule, readily copyable.
  • 3-views, taking 1 column (2x1/2 col)
  • 1/4 column overview
  • 1/4 col basic att mods & CGen outline
• 1-5 pages of psychology
• 1-10 pages of special rules, as needed.
  • character generation changes
  • explicit stateroom/LS requriements
  • standard design pattern changes
• 0-20 pages Worked Examples of any special rules.
• 0-10 pages of subculture notes
• 0-10 pages of governmental notes for their interstellar polities
• 1/8 page per page of illustrations

That sounds rather thoughtful. How many pages for maps of cities, typical building designs and layouts, vehicle and starship layouts, unique technology and popular foods etc?

 

[rancke]

Firstly I don't get this 300 000 year old number. Where does that come from?

That's when the Ancients visited Earth and took samples of canine stock that they used to create proto-Vargr.


Hans

 

[aramis]

That sounds rather thoughtful. How many pages for maps of cities, typical building designs and layouts, vehicle and starship layouts, unique technology and popular foods etc?

Unique tech is rules. Popular foods are in culture and/or subculture.

Building designs would be extra, as would more than one or two ships. IMO, a ship should be a one-page design worksheet, if that much, and a one-page map.

 

[SpaceBadger]

Firstly I don't get this 300 000 year old number. Where does that come from?.

That's been canon since the very first article by Marc Miller and Frank Chadwick describing the Third Imperium, for the active era of the Ancients in transporting humans to various worlds throughout known space and canines for the Vargr-uplift. Multiple repeat references since then.

Also even if it was 300 000 years old, does that mean it's from primitive man? It could have been humans taken from the present day, but in the Traveller universe today is thousands of years ago.

Conversion from Imperial dating to our dating system is also known from multiple references. The present year 2013 AD (or CE if you prefer) is -2508 in Imperial dating. As Hans noted, checking dates against the fossil record doesn't bear out the idea of modern humans and dogs being taken; it would have been pre-humans and pre-wolves.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

That's been canon since the very first article by Marc Miller and Frank Chadwick describing the Third Imperium, for the active era of the Ancients in transporting humans to various worlds throughout known space and canines for the Vargr-uplift. Multiple repeat references since then.



Conversion from Imperial dating to our dating system is also known from multiple references. The present year 2013 AD (or CE if you prefer) is -2508 in Imperial dating. As Hans noted, checking dates against the fossil record doesn't bear out the idea of modern humans and dogs being taken; it would have been pre-humans and pre-wolves.

All of this input suggests very strongly that it's about time it was clarified once and for all. Hence new T5 Aliens books are essential and have been wanted for a long time. On some levels ok, you can do what you want and anything goes. Myself I like to stick to some kind of canon to pin things down. Again, the chaos reigns issue is best kept at bay in my firm opinion. Also the Traveller material suggests that we know very little about the ancients and that the alleged past is only a rough guess. It's not definite. All dates etc are just estimates based on artifacts found etc correct?

Myself, I'm sticking with canine dog men.

 

[rancke]

All of this input suggests very strongly that it's about time it was clarified once and for all.

There are plenty of bits of canon that could do with clarification, but the origin of the Vargr isn't one of them. The Ancients gathered older versions of wolves (quite correctly referred to as 'canine stock', in this case referring to wolves) some 300,000 years ago, roughly 200,000 years before modern dogs split from modern wolves (And very close to 300,000 years before most dog breeds were bred). No contradictions, no controversy, and no dog-men.

Hence new T5 Aliens books are essential and have been wanted for a long time. On some levels ok, you can do what you want and anything goes. Myself I like to stick to some kind of canon to pin things down. Again, the chaos reigns issue is best kept at bay in my firm opinion.

I agree wholeheartedly. My own philosophy on the subject of canon is "If it isn't broken, don't change it; if it is broken, do fix it."

Vargr being geneered from wolves rather than dogs is not broken.

Also the Traveller material suggests that we know very little about the ancients and that the alleged past is only a rough guess. It's not definite. All dates etc are just estimates based on artifacts found etc correct?

That's a bit of a muddle. The first mentions of the Ancients put the date at '300,000 old plus or minus 10,000'. Later Traveller writers turned that into '-310,000 to -290,000' and used those dates as authoritative. In some cases held in authorial voice, which ought to nail them down for writers and referees, regardless of what the people in the Classic Era know and don't know.

Granted, whenever statements made in authorial voice turns out to be contradictory, an easy handwave is to say that it's not the truth, it's what people think is the truth, i.e. viewpoint writing. But in the absence of contradictions, I think we must accept the dates as definite, whatever Imperial scientists of the Classic Era know or don't know.

Myself, I'm sticking with canine dog men.

So not sticking to canon, them? Your priviledge, of course. :devil:


Hans

 

[Spaceresearcher]

T5 declares almost intelligent man. The first archaic humans where ergaster/erectus, 500 000 years ago. Anatomically modern humans began about 200 000 years ago and homo sapiens around 90 000 years ago.

So with the Traveller main date as stated by the T5 rule book being 300 000 years ago, surely there's coverage between the 500 000 to 200 000 range. The classic Droyne module does state Canine for the Vargr, not Canis Lupus like the Mongoose adaptation of the Vargr.

Here's the deal sealer, if a Vargr T5 module appears and distinctly declares the Vargr as Canis Lupus origin wolf men, then I'll just have to accept it. Until then, classic Traveller and a hell of a lot of artworks all suggest dog men and I don't have a problem with that.

 

[rancke]

T5 declares almost intelligent man. The first archaic humans where ergaster/erectus, 500 000 years ago. Anatomically modern humans began about 200 000 years ago and homo sapiens around 90 000 years ago.

You've gotten that muddled up a bit, but never mind that. The history of Homo sapiens in the Traveller universe is quite likely incompatible with that of Homo sapiens of the Real Universe. It's based on the theories that were prevalent back in the 70s, where early Homo sapiens was thought to have evolved around 300,000 years ago. And you can't revise it to fit current theories, because a number of hominid populations that have existed for 300,000 years without contact with the hominids left behind on Earth are interfertile with Homo sapiens sapiens. It follows that unless you believe in convergent evolution, their last common ancestor 300,000 years ago must have been some kind of Homo sapiens (GT:Humaniti says that Imperial scientists calls them Homo sapiens antiquus) from which these various populations have descended without diverging enough to become different species.

However, whatever discrepancies exist between TU humans and Real Universe humans, no such discrepancies exist between TU canines and RU canines.

So with the Traveller main date as stated by the T5 rule book being 300 000 years ago, surely there's coverage between the 500 000 to 200 000 range. The classic Droyne module does state Canine for the Vargr, not Canis Lupus like the Mongoose adaptation of the Vargr.

For the last time: 'Canine' can refer to wolves too.

Here's the deal sealer, if a Vargr T5 module appears and distinctly declares the Vargr as Canis Lupus origin wolf men, then I'll just have to accept it. Until then, classic Traveller and a hell of a lot of artworks all suggest dog men and I don't have a problem with that.

If the CT Vargr module isn't good enough evidence for you, then so be it.


Hans

 

[SpaceBadger]

Until then, classic Traveller and a hell of a lot of artworks all suggest dog men and I don't have a problem with that.

Umm, no. I'm currently playing a Vargr in an online game, so I happen to have my Vargr references handy. The Classic Traveller Vargr module (subtitled "Freebooting Encounters with the Wolves of Space") clearly states that "Vargr are descended from carnivore/chaser stock transplanted from Terra to Lair/Gnouf in the Provence Sector during the heyday of the Ancients, approximately 300,000 years ago. These transplanted carnivores were of the family Canidae, and almost certainly of the genus Canis." All of the psychology and social stuff refers to the pack behavior of the original stock.

There were no dogs 300,000 years ago. Genus Canis back then would have been proto-wolves.

Also, where do you get dog men by the artwork? Except for the notorious "Lassie-girl" in TTA, all of the CT Vargr artwork suggests wolves much more than dogs.

In short, you are free to rule however you want IYTU, but don't lean on Classic Traveller for support on this issue, as it won't bear the weight.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Well it is true. Classic Traveller Vargr module does state 'The Wolves Of Space', however it also states Canide, which includes: domestic dogs, wolves, foxes, jackals, coyotes.

But are they all wolf men, or are some dog men? Also the Vargr module does mention the Roman empire. Dogs were most certainly used both for hunting and as pets in that age. Also in that age, they were dressed in spikes etc for battle purposes. I guess that's my confusion. The artworks suggest more Dog like to me than wolf like, but then I guess it's fair to say a lot of dogs came from the wolf line.

The fact remains, there's some who believe all just wolf men, there's some like me who believe predominantly dog men. Perhaps there are all different races of Vargr, just as there are races of humans. That's an exciting point that I'm hoping will be clarified in the T5 Vargr notes. Perhaps if as most people like to think of them 'the wolf men(please, not werewolf style men like Mongoose)', are soldier castes. Kind of like The Droyne have the warrior caste. It would make sense as surely The Ancients being essentially god like would want to create some of there genetically engineered races in there image perhaps.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

That's image being like there social structure, not like what they look like of course.

 

[rancke]

Well it is true. Classic Traveller Vargr module does state 'The Wolves Of Space', however it also states Canide, which includes: domestic dogs, wolves, foxes, jackals, coyotes.

'Canine' can refer to dogs, foxes, jackals, and coyotes in addition to wolves. However, as the dates and the Vargr writeup make abundantly clear, in this particular case it refers to proto-wolves, not foxes, jackals, coyotes, or dogs.

But are they all wolf men, or are some dog men?

According to canon, they're all descended from proto-wolves from 300,000 years ago. None of them are descended from dogs. None.

Also the Vargr module does mention the Roman empire. Dogs were most certainly used both for hunting and as pets in that age. Also in that age, they were dressed in spikes etc for battle purposes. I guess that's my confusion. The artworks suggest more Dog like to me than wolf like, but then I guess it's fair to say a lot of dogs came from the wolf line.

It's fair to say that all dogs came from the wolf line.

The fact remains, there's some who believe all just wolf men, there's some like me who believe predominantly dog men.

Or to put it another way, there are some who believe in the wolf-descended Vargr of canon and then there are some that ignore the part of canon that doesn't fit their ideas. Nothing wrong with that, of course; but it doesn't change what canon says.

Perhaps there are all different _{races of Vargr, just as there are races of humans.}

_{(I suggest using 'subrace' to denote the kind of races you're talking about here, since Traveller uses it in the sense of entire world-spanning populations (with their own homeworlds).) Quite conceivable, although if there are, you'd expect to see that mentioned in the various Vargr writeups. It's a pretty important fact to omit from a writeup of an alien race. But be that as it may, if there are different Vargr subraces, they will all be descendants of the original proto-wolves. None of them will be descended from Terran dogs. Hans}

 

[Spaceresearcher]

LOL. I'm guessing what your saying Rancke, is that you don't like the idea of some of the Vargr being dog men?

 

[SpaceBadger]

LOL. I'm guessing what your saying Rancke, is that you don't like the idea of some of the Vargr being dog men?

Garrr! No, I think that what Hans and I are both saying is that according to long-established Traveller canon and express statements that we have cited to you, Vargr in the OTU are not descended from dogs but from proto-wolves. This is a "fact" of the OTU.

You can say what you want in your own TU, but in the OTU it isn't even reasonably open to question.

And now my wife has asked me why I even care about your opinions on this subject, and I don't have any answer to that, so I guess I'm done here.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Simple. Because your a Traveller and we love discussing Traveller.

Let's see, there are Grey Wolf(the purest of the wolf line), Eurasion Wolf, Arabian Wolf, Eastern Wolf, Red Wolf etc and dogs and dingoes are recognised sub species of the wolf. This is through coyote hybridization. (Recognized as of 2005).

From the Classic Traveller Vargr Alien module:
The Vargr retain many of the characteristics of their canine ancestors, far more so than humans and their primate forefathers. They are covered with
a short fur, generally brown, black, or rust colored, though frequently combining shadings of these and other colors. Their tails are fairly long
and generally end in a flaring brush. The muzzle is much shorter and less pronounced than in Terran canines, but still is quite evident.

Well, the rust coloured fur and flaring brush indicates definite red wolf characteristics. The red wolf is actually coyote with distant wolf ancestry.

Mixes of these would be Eurasion wolf. canine ancestors implies more than just wolf. Canis Lupis is mentioned but then the rust colour would not be prevalent. (Eg take a look at pure grey wolves).

Again, I will await confirmation from a new T5 aliens book and that will hopefully clarify this grey issue.(excuse the pun).

It's not black and white, that's all I'm saying.

 

[rancke]

Let's see, there are Grey Wolf(the purest of the wolf line), Eurasion Wolf, Arabian Wolf, Eastern Wolf, Red Wolf etc and dogs and dingoes are recognised sub species of the wolf. This is through coyote hybridization. (Recognized as of 2005).

Irrelevant. What wolf subspecies are recognized as of -300,000?

Well, the rust coloured fur and flaring brush indicates definite red wolf characteristics. The red wolf is actually coyote with distant wolf ancestry.

Mixes of these would be Eurasion wolf. Canine ancestors implies more than just wolf.

Possbly, but not the way you think. The Ancients may have gathered more than one canine species and mixed them up. But Vargr are no more descended from contemporary wolves than they are of contemporary dogs, foxes, or coyotes.

Incidentally, one theory about the red wolf is that it and coyotes split from the same ancestral species:

"Paleontological evidence has suggested an origin of the red wolf line 1–2 Ma, branching from a wolf-coyote ancestor, which itself appeared about 4.9 Ma.[24][25] Between 150,000–300,000 years ago, the North American branch evolved into the red wolf, eastern wolf and the coyote." [Wikipedia].​

So those genes for red hair must have been present in that proto-wolf ancestor 300,000 years ago.

Again, I will await confirmation from a new T5 aliens book and that will hopefully clarify this grey issue.

The issue is perfectly clear already. Barring a concious decision to change canon retroactively in T5 (which admittedly could happen), you're not going to get another answer.

It's not black and white, that's all I'm saying.

It is black and white. That's all SpaceBadger and I are saying.


Hans

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Well we'll all just have to wait for T5's alien updates to find out on that. While the classic text doesn't specifically state canis familiaris(which would be the domesticated dog except for an example in the Solomani book), it doesn't rule it out either. Dog genes(or the genesis of) must have been in the wolf genes also.