T5 MAJOR RACES: ALIENS 1 - 8

[rancke]

That's where you are mistaken, particularly on the Mongoose Vargr book. It's version of the Vargr differs to that of the Megatraveller Vargr source material published by DGP markedly. Even the CT module. I take the DGP material over any Mongoose publication any day.

That's where you're mistaken. The quality of MgT's products has got absolutely nothing to do with how official they are. I haven't read the MgT Vargr book, so I've no idea how badly they mangled them, or if they've mangled them at all. But whether you or I like them or not, MgT's books are just as official as GDW books and DGP books and the rest of them.

(Unless officially decanonized, of course. Which MgT's books have not been.)

Hans

 

[aramis]

That's where you're mistaken. The quality of MgT's products has got absolutely nothing to do with how official they are. I haven't read the MgT Vargr book, so I've no idea how badly they mangled them, or if they've mangled them at all. But whether you or I like them or not, MgT's books are just as official as GDW books and DGP books and the rest of them.

(Unless officially decanonized, of course. Which MgT's books have not been.)

Hans

Marc has not released a "Canon list" for MgT, nor for GT. Nor has he released a single unified canon list that I've seen - Each edition has a separate canon list on Marc's site.

Not to mention, T5 blithely writes over some bits of MgT and GT, and those two have incompatibilities. If they're both part of the same canon, then there's a huge wooly mess of canon contradictions.

 

[rancke]

Marc has not released a "Canon list" for MgT, nor for GT. Nor has he released a single unified canon list that I've seen - Each edition has a separate canon list on Marc's site.

They're still official products.

Not to mention, T5 blithely writes over some bits of MgT and GT, and those two have incompatibilities. If they're both part of the same canon, then there's a huge wooly mess of canon contradictions.

Yes, and very vexing I find it too. I'm not saying that I think Marc Miller made the right choices for improving the OTU. But I have to concede that those were his choices to make and that whatever he wrote (or, in the case of GT and MgT products, approved) is official.


Hans

 

[aramis]

They're still official products.



Yes, and very vexing I find it too. I'm not saying that I think Marc Miller made the right choices for improving the OTU. But I have to concede that those were his choices to make and that whatever he wrote (or, in the case of GT and MgT products, approved) is official.


Hans

8 separate (9 if you count 2300) lines. The easiest way to make sense of it is to treat each as separate. Fewest contradictions that way.

 

[rancke]

8 separate (9 if you count 2300) lines. The easiest way to make sense of it is to treat each as separate. Fewest contradictions that way.

And most of 36 years' worth of development thrown away. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Not for me, thank you. I don't want to waste my time making up stuff that has already been covered somewhere, even if it isn't the very latest version. As for contradictions, there's a very easy way to do handle that. Choose one version and stick to that from then on. Or, as I express it as a more general principle: If it works, don't change it. If it doesn't work, change it to something that works and stick to that from then on.


Hans

 

[Spaceresearcher]

That's where you're mistaken. The quality of MgT's products has got absolutely nothing to do with how official they are. I haven't read the MgT Vargr book, so I've no idea how badly they mangled them, or if they've mangled them at all. But whether you or I like them or not, MgT's books are just as official as GDW books and DGP books and the rest of them.

(Unless officially decanonized, of course. Which MgT's books have not been.)

Hans

I take it you have invested considerably in the MgT books and for some reason would feel there devalued should they not be considered canon. Not so and Gurps Traveller is proof of this.

This discussion is really about a T5 Aliens module and why it's needed. Which frankly it is, to finally have a conclusive set if you will of Aliens modules would be very beneficial.

 

[rancke]

I take it you have invested considerably in the MgT books and for some reason would feel there devalued should they not be considered canon.

Not only are you quite wrong, it wouldn't be relevant if you had been right.

Not so and Gurps Traveller is proof of this.

Who says what now?

This discussion is really about a T5 Aliens module and why it's needed. Which frankly it is, to finally have a conclusive set if you will of Aliens modules would be very beneficial.

There's no reason to believe that any T5 aliens book would be the conclusive version. Nor is there any reason to believe that a new version of the aliens writeups would conform to your ideas any closer than the previously published ones do.


Hans

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Marc has not released a "Canon list" for MgT, nor for GT. Nor has he released a single unified canon list that I've seen - Each edition has a separate canon list on Marc's site.

Not to mention, T5 blithely writes over some bits of MgT and GT, and those two have incompatibilities. If they're both part of the same canon, then there's a huge wooly mess of canon contradictions.

Well I'd argue that there is an official canon, which is documented through the stories of the various ages of Traveller. The very start of T5 with the description of the universe and the various wars throughout Travellers history clearly links all the 'canon' Traveller together. As for third party companies like Gurps and MgT, well they have gone off on there own tangents putting out what they believe to be a good idea for Traveller, not necessarily fitting in with the core system as it was in terms of continuity, which CT,MT,TNE and T4 have all done from what I've read so far.

In the past third party companies seemed to support Traveller as opposed to invent there versions of it. (Eg, DGP and the fine FASA deck plans etc). Now there seems to be a trend in either making it the way the third party company would like it or simply throwing out the Traveller universe and creating there own universe based on Traveller rules.

For myself I am a firm believer in not re-inventing the wheel. Aliens modules have been done before, end of story. Well yes they have, but do they satisfy the current depth which like it or not, Traveller has. The universe has evolved into a massive gaming arena where characters could be dead before they reach the other side of the known galaxy. Races have been evolving along with humanity and the T5 book clearly shows all the terrific additions and enhancements to human characters that have come about(also gratefully received as CT kind of bugged me that your character essentially had no choice but to enlist in the military, now that's not the case and Traveller is finally opened up to a greater depth of gaming possibility in my firm opinion. I guess CT kept things simple, but it was by no means all encompassing. T5 on the other hand just about is). T4 was the past. the early days of travel amongst the stars. While T5 on the other hand is the future, years from CT,MT and TNE. I'm looking forward to the expanded depth and character generation possibilities that the major races can provide for Traveller in a way that's only been briefly touched upon by past alien books.

That's why I believe a T5 Aliens book or books are essential. They deserve to have the treatment that the human character creation process has been given. Also friends who enjoy having a go at playing alien characters are always wishing there was more information on them. Sure you can make it up, but that's what leads to all this mess with discontinuity etc. On the positive side a T5 aliens update on the major races can put a stop to that and at the same time provide an excellent spring point for minor races and the ultimate creation of more races. T4 was superb in it's attempt to bring more minor races to the Traveller universe. Those very races would have evolved an aweful lot in the time span between the milieu zero age and the modern T5 age surely?

Dare I say it, the previous issues between the major star faring races may very well be dissolving into a more co-operative galaxy? This is just one of the many exciting aspects that the much needed update could provide.

Finally on the subject of other Aliens books. First of all Gurps. Correct me if I am mistaken but straight up it's an alternative Traveller where the CT age never ended. Eg, there's no shattered imperium timeline or virus timeline.
So straight up, Gurps falls outside of 'canon'.
Then on MgT, even if it's considered canon by some, it's support material is all hinging around 1105 and centred in the spinward marches, which places it back in CT days. I suppose you could even label MgT as support material for CT. (Feel free to jump in here MgT fans I only have some of the supplements for MgT, finding it somewhat below TNE standards but that's just me).

So canon wise, Traveller stopped at T4(which was actually a prequel game really) and has only just continued with T5. The interesting aspect of Traveller D20 or T20 is that it seems to be between T4 and CT (again correct me if I am mistaken but that's what I'm reading).

All editions of Traveller are terrific(with some liking not liking others), myself I've enjoyed bits from all of them but what always draws me to a SciFi game is the possibilities for the future. Well finally we have it, T5, the future of Traveller and while it may not be the rules to end all rules compendium that most Travellers believed it would be(although I think it is so far), the fact remains it's a step in the direction of moving Traveller forward and what happens in the future? So the Aliens modules are deffinately needed as we do not have the updates for them in this new Traveller future.

The other main reason is exactly as I've been saying. The Aliens books are still not complete and what I've seen from Mongoose, is OK, but certainly comes no way near matching the voluminous wealth of information and detail that T5 is going for. So new Aliens books are definately required to fill this void.

If you enjoy the CT years, then I guess you don't need them, however if you enjoyed MT, TNE and T4, then it stands to reason your going to want new support material for T5 just like the other timeline areas of the Traveller universe. Yeah? There's a good deal of people who want to see the evolution and expansion of the Traveller universe.

 

[rancke]

Finally on the subject of other Aliens books. First of all Gurps. Correct me if I am mistaken but straight up it's an alternative Traveller where the CT age never ended. Eg, there's no shattered imperium timeline or virus timeline.
So straight up, Gurps falls outside of 'canon'.

Some people feel that as it applies to an alternate universe, GT material does not apply to the OTU[*], but there's no such ambiguity about MgT material.

[*] Personally I reject that notion, since the GTU is supposedly identical to the OTU up until the Change Point, which means that all information that apply to the GTU prior to some point around 1114 apply just as much to the OTU.​

Then on MgT, even if it's considered canon by some, it's support material is all hinging around 1105 and centred in the spinward marches, which places it back in CT days. I suppose you could even label MgT as support material for CT.

The logic of this argument escapes me. MgT is the currently licensed Traveller line. That places it in the current days.

So canon wise, Traveller stopped at T4 (which was actually a prequel game really) and has only just continued with T5.

Still wrong. Each subsequent Traveller version added something to the official Traveller setting.

The other main reason is exactly as I've been saying. The Aliens books are still not complete and what I've seen from Mongoose, is OK, but certainly comes no way near matching the voluminous wealth of information and detail that T5 is going for. So new Aliens books are definately required to fill this void.

It's quite possible that Mongoose will manage to cover all the major races before their license runs out. They've made a good start and they have some years yet.


Hans

 

[aramis]

In the past third party companies seemed to support Traveller as opposed to invent there versions of it. (Eg, DGP and the fine FASA deck plans etc). Now there seems to be a trend in either making it the way the third party company would like it or simply throwing out the Traveller universe and creating there own universe based on Traveller rules.
.

DGP actually wrote MT for GDW, and a great many people felt that it was incompatible with the CT setting. Most of them still do. It's clearly a different physical universe, because several items differ wildly... like jump and PP fuel rates.

At least, the stats run the same general ranges; in TNE, everyone is a point worse but on the same scale as CT and MT.

And that whole "Throw out the universe and invent their own" is the only way one is allowed, as a 3rd party company other than SJG or Mongoose, to do anything outside the Foreven sector.

Its not like it was in the early 80's, with licenses being low cost, and 3rd parties being granted "Fiefs" of anywhere from 1/4 to 4 sectors.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Not only are you quite wrong, it wouldn't be relevant if you had been right.



Who says what now?


There's no reason to believe that any T5 aliens book would be the conclusive version. Nor is there any reason to believe that a new version of the aliens writeups would conform to your ideas any closer than the previously published ones do.


Hans

So essentially you'll disagree with me no matter what Rancke, fine, you don't want a T5 Aliens, why even bother posting?

 

[Spaceresearcher]

DGP actually wrote MT for GDW, and a great many people felt that it was incompatible with the CT setting. Most of them still do. It's clearly a different physical universe, because several items differ wildly... like jump and PP fuel rates.

At least, the stats run the same general ranges; in TNE, everyone is a point worse but on the same scale as CT and MT.

And that whole "Throw out the universe and invent their own" is the only way one is allowed, as a 3rd party company other than SJG or Mongoose, to do anything outside the Foreven sector.

Its not like it was in the early 80's, with licenses being low cost, and 3rd parties being granted "Fiefs" of anywhere from 1/4 to 4 sectors.

Well as Rancke seems to like to point out. Would that not be irrelevant being that most of the DGP material written was more for MT which is set years past CT?

I think the fact that there are arguments and debates bring about the need for this T5 Aliens update full stop and for the record Ranke, if Marc declared it canon, it would be canon to me no matter what I thought, just like my thoughts on T5 and T4 before it.

 

[rancke]

So essentially you'll disagree with me no matter what Rancke,

Not so. I'll agree with you if you change my mind or if you change yours. But I will disagree with you when I think you're wrong, and if you neither manage to support your position nor change it, I'm not likely to change my opinion, am I? Why should I suddenly agree with you just because you've said the same thing three times?

...fine, you don't want a T5 Aliens, why even bother posting?

All you seem to have registered is that I disagree with you. You haven't even bothered to consider what the disagreement is about. It's about your statement that T4 was the Last True Traveller Ever Published (paraphrased). I've said absolutely nothing about my attitude to new aliens books for T5.

For the record, my attitude towards prospective aliens books for T5 is fairly neutral. I don't feel any burning need for yet another warmover of the same material, because I have the CT, MT, and GT writeups already. OTOH, I realize that new fans are going to need something that's actually available for purchase, so once Mongoose's versions are no longer in print, a T5 version will definitely be apposite. Also, I'd welcome a rewrite that corrected the things I dislike about previous incarnations (I'd definitely welcome a step away from Mongoose's Space Operaish illustrations), but I don't have any high hopes of that happening unless I get tapped to write or edit the new books myself.

It's definitely not the first T5 product I want. (That would be a succinct description of what the Third Imperium is like with the changes Marc Miller has decided to introduce.)


Hans

 

[rancke]

DGP actually wrote MT for GDW, and a great many people felt that it was incompatible with the CT setting.

And so it was, on a number of points. There were some very obvious retcons. By definition retcons are incompatible with (some of) previously published material. That's the whole point of a retcon.

Most of them still do. It's clearly a different physical universe, because several items differ wildly... like jump and PP fuel rates.

And yet it's clearly the same physical universe since the history of the two versions are identical. Not surprising, that's how retcons work.

"There are no subsector navies; they're subsector fleets belonging to the Imperial Navy. And they always were!"

"But High Guard says..."

"AND. THEY. ALWAYS. WERE!"


Hans

 

[robject]

Do you know anything more about any of the Aliens building layouts and technology other than snippets in what's available at the moment?

Content

Have you looked at the Mongoose Traveller alien books? They have most of what you need -- they expand on the classic Traveller text, and add plenty of technology. The Aslan book is over 200 pages, and the Vargr and Zhodani books are around 180 pages.

Format

Canon issues aside, Mongoose knows how to format books and edit the text. The only thing you've mentioned that you want, which you may not find in Traveller books, is a lot of full-color artwork.

Canon

Now on the canon issues, let's first look at MgT's Zhodani book, and later turn to Aslan and Vargr.

Don McKinney wrote the Zhodani module for Mongoose. He wrote it with input from Marc. He wrote it as T5 was being developed. You know about Don, right? His name is right underneath Marc's in the T5 book. He maintains errata lists for most versions of Traveller, including and most especially T5, and talks with Marc about that list weekly.

So, what are the specific problems with the Zhodani book? Why can't T5 simply piggyback on what Don wrote for Zhodani, and publish a T5 guide to Zho chargen and equipment?

I can't see any reason not to use this book for T5.

Non-Canon

Now, picking up Aslan and Vargr. The issue becomes errata, and how to fix the existing books, rather than creating an order of magnitude more work to be done. And Don is the king of errata for these books, too. If you sent him an email, he could probably point you at the problem list, which would include solution text as well. In other words, he knows what to fix in them, and how to fix them, collected from readers since the books came out.

So, what are the specific problems with using corrected versions of MgT Aslan and Vargr, directed by Don's errata lists? Why can't T5 simply piggyback on them, and publish T5 guides to chargen and equipment?

Again, assuming edits, I can't see any reason not to use them for T5.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Then there's the NEW Galaxiad component of Traveller

To put forward the 'canon' timeline, I'd like to just point out the notes on the timeline from page 17 of the T5 core rules book.

1. As chronicled in Classic Traveller.
2. As chronicled in MegaTraveller.
3. As chronicled in The New Era.
4. As chronicled in T4.
5. The Galaxiad.

These are the core game era points noted with the official Traveller time line and that fellow Travellers is as per Marc Miller the original core creator of the game. (Surely not even the most argumentative of fellow fan can argue that point). The Mongoose Traveller and Gurps Traveller systems are simply add ons to Classic Traveller, they did not add anything new to the overall timeline. As such if fellow fans feel they are official, then fine, but there only CT official add on products and hence as others are so fond of proclaiming, CT would be the canon overide on all these products correct?

In any case, my point of this post is the highlight which is note 5. of the time line. This is the 'Far Far Future' of Traveller, years beyond even TNE. To this end, it stands to reason after all the events of the previous main 4 eras of Traveller there will have been some drastic evolution. (Especially after a plague virus swept the galaxy). Hence a T5 Aliens updates book would be most beneficial for this new era, while adding to some of the material for past editions(eg keeping with the T5 ultimate methodology of being THE ultimate Traveller system to bring all the systems together).

The new Aliens books could highlight the changes through the ages, which hasn't really been covered(other than origin) in past editions.

I think the Galaxiad also has the terrific opportunity to set the races how the creators would like them to ultimately become, without creating a plethora of negative feedback and arguments from long time players.

Just a thought and a strong case for creating the new Aliens volumes of which many strongly feel are well over due for a serious update.

 

[rancke]

Now, picking up Aslan and Vargr. The issue becomes errata, and how to fix the existing books, rather than creating an order of magnitude more work to be done.

When MgT's Aslans were published, a number of discrepancies with previously published material were pointed out to Mongoose, and Matt made a statement to the effect that they were all deliberate changes and Marc Miller had approved them all, so there! As to Vargr, I've neither read it nor seen any discussion of it.

Of course, people do change their minds some times, and it's quite possible that Matt would be willing to errata some of his deliberate changes nowadays. Who knows?


Hans

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Content

Have you looked at the Mongoose Traveller alien books? They have most of what you need -- they expand on the classic Traveller text, and add plenty of technology. The Aslan book is over 200 pages, and the Vargr and Zhodani books are around 180 pages.

Format

Canon issues aside, Mongoose knows how to format books and edit the text. The only thing you've mentioned that you want, which you may not find in Traveller books, is a lot of full-color artwork.

Canon

Now on the canon issues, let's set aside MgT's Aslan and Vargr for a moment.

Don McKinney wrote the Zhodani module for Mongoose. He wrote it with input from Marc. He wrote it as T5 was being developed. You know about Don, right? His name is right underneath Marc's in the T5 book. He maintains errata lists for most versions of Traveller, including and most especially T5, and talks with Marc about the list weekly.

So, what are the specific problems with the Zhodani book? Why can't T5 simply piggyback on what Don wrote for Zhodani, and publish a T5 guide to Zho chargen and equipment?

Answer: no reason not to.

Now, picking up Aslan and Vargr. The issue becomes errata, rather than creating an order of magnitude more work to be done.

At the end of the day, as Mongoose seems to have license to publish Traveller books, could they not repackage them, alter the art and create T5 editions rather seamlessly? (Printing runs of the books seem to be scarce is my main problem with them).

On the Zhodani module here are my main issues and highlights with it.
1. Considering this is a CT add on(which the dates clearly put MgT in), there are too many discrepancies for my liking. First of all the Zhodani ships differ dramatically from the Fasa ships and is annoying when you have some miniatures that don't resemble MgT's version of Zhodani ships at all.

2. The artwork doesn't look like anything done before to the point where it just doesn't look Zhodani to me.

3. Not wanting to disregard the work done on MgT, it was great on the Equipment side, the History is a bit kind of fleshed out as opposed to expanded upon.

4. Psionics isn't enough for a Psionics race(2 pages).

5. Worlds is nice but could be better(eg I'm sure a better effort than 5 pages is doable).

6.The Ziafrplians Sector is pretty good and Campaigns is welcomed.

As for editing, a Glossary in the middle of the book? (Page 53, I have the PDF edition if that's different or something).

To be honest it looks like a lot of the text was looked over by Marc, but as for the artwork and layouts, well those to me are like the rest of the team simply had free reign to do what they wanted.

Don't get me wrong, it's great that these exist, but there far from conclusive or enough to add serious depth to the major races(like for example the other human races of Traveller).

As for the canon issue, there isn't one, many fellow fans seem to regard it as canon and are happy. Myself I'd argue there's parts that are great and parts that don't fit(almost a variation on CT in the case of the artwork and layouts) but without doubt it's a nice lot of add on material for the CT era.

The MgT aliens modules will not however provide an adequate update to the core Alien races for Megatraveller. The New Era or The Galaxiad(T5), simply because there not written nor designed to, there a CT add on only.

 

[robject]

Thank you for the reply and your analysis, SR.

The reason I'm asking, is because I think it is unlikely that FFE could do better than Mongoose Publishing within a given timeframe. There are some areas that could be done to supplement MgT -- the FASA ship designs you've mentioned (and I agree with), and of course T5-specific rules -- but as a whole I just don't think an in-depth treatment of aliens is a priority, when there is enough out there that works well enough. Not saying it won't happen, just saying it's not the priority.

Aside: you know I've done a couple of the Zhodani ships in ACS. Any thoughts about them?

In other words, it's quite productive to think about bridging the gap between MgT Zhodani and what T5 needs from it.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Genetic codes is just one of many reasons to re-instate a new updated T5 Alien book or books.

For completion is another.

What other reasons do fellow Travellers believe warrants a new series?

I'll elaborate further with my list, but I was interested to know what others are thinking about.